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  1. #1

    No Utility/Raid CD, Hurts 10man position?

    I've been playing mage on and off since vanilla, and only recently came back to 10man raiding.

    Having killed H Ra-Den this week, I still feel in 10man raiding specifically, that mage feels a little weaker than other classes.

    As we're not strictly pushing Enrage timers, it more comes down to what each class can bring to a raid, and mage generally comes up the weakest.

    We have no defensive CD to generate to the raid, and Time Warp can be brought by other classes as well.

    Compared to Warlocks, Moonkin, Spriests and Ele shamans, does anyone else feel we seem to come out on the weaker side, just because we provide no extra 'bonuses' compared to them?


    Hunters also seem to suffer from this, but their raid buff utility, as well as misdirections and pet taunts seem to make them more viable than us.

    Anyone else feel like we could do with something helpful in terms of bringing more to a raid?

  2. #2
    Epic! Lei Shi's Avatar
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    Hunters have the most utility of all classes. They should make mages do higher DPS than other classes against NPCs to make up for the lack of utility.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Hunters have the most utility of all classes. They should make mages do higher DPS than other classes against NPCs to make up for the lack of utility.
    That's the current model - mages pretty much dominate RaidBots at the high, intermediate and low levels of play.

    Also, mages have great utility and have nigh-on always had great utility. What more do you think they need?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  4. #4
    What utility do you think we bring thats so great?

    We have personals like everyone else, but nothing groundbreaking or particulary raid useful

  5. #5
    the only unique raid utility we bring is mage food :P

    i would personally like to have some raid minor buff or damage reduction CD, maybe make flameglow useful for once!


    AddOn Author of: SpellNotReadyYet, Rune of Powa

  6. #6
    Some kind of raid-temporal-shield would be nice. But I don't think they are gonna do important changes like this to the class until next expansion.

    Right now mages are one of the worst class to bring to 10m, imho. Yeah, at the end of the tier we are top3 on damage meters but in the beginning (when dps matters) we weren't, not by far. I thought this tier of either rerolling to warlock (but didn't have enough gear) or quit game, let's see next tier...

  7. #7
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Blaxter, Fire and Frost were quite strong in early MoP, then Arcane took lead in 5.1 with Fire close (sometimes even higher). In 5.2 we were bad for a total of 2 weeks before the bombs got buffed which returned us into a leading position and that's where we still are.

    There is no "mages bad in the beginning" this expansion.

    And yes, it is true that we bring lots of amazing personal utility and sometimes that makes us better than some classes which have raid-wide tools. That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing something put to good use for the benefit of the raid when 6.0 comes.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Hunters have the most utility of all classes.
    What?

    Raidbuffs <-> Utility.
    We can only use 1 at a time. Its handy in 10mans, useless in 25's. 10mans usually got most buffs covered anyways.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omgponies View Post
    Hunters also seem to suffer from this, but their raid buff utility, as well as misdirections and pet taunts seem to make them more viable than us.
    Misdirection is just a weaker version of tricks, and pet taunt.. It doesnt even work on bosses nor does it work on all the adds, and when it actually taunts, it dies in 2 seconds, resulting in a massive dps loss.


    Trust me, hunters are in the same spot as mages, if not in a worse one.
    Last edited by Hoofey; 2013-07-04 at 09:22 AM.

  9. #9
    took lead in 5.1 with Fire close (sometimes even higher).
    As far as I remember, after 3 days of 100% ignite combustion glory, I was robbed 8% of my crit and gutted like a cornish game hen..

  10. #10
    We have blink, one of the best abilities in the game. We don't have any raid utility or CDs, but we probably have one of the best personal CDs in the game. Iceblock, greater invisibility, mirror images, blink, temporal shield/ice barrier, several forms of CC. If you've done heroic lei shen then you should already know how good we have it (double soaking, blinking through helms, temporal shielding pretty much every tstrike, helm, etc...). We are already top DPS by a huge margin if you look at raidbots top 100 10m heroic averages. Basically we have top DPS, amazing personals, and then you're suggesting raid wide CD/utility on top of that, lol. I think that's a little too much.

    People already QQ about warlocks being near mandatory and OP because of their damage, raid utility, and personal CDs plus pets. A raid CD/utility for mages would throw us up there with warlocks, probably even worse.

  11. #11
    I wouldnt quote raidbots top 100 as a good guide to go by

    You have to have very good RNG to get into there, as if you look at the logs of the top dps, you can see they have large crit% or they're geared/farming enough to abuse a mechanic in the fight, (and the raid lets them. Eg tunnel horridon)

    A lot of the listed things you've got others can do as well. A speed boost is as good as blink for H Lei Shen, and a lot of other classes can double soak as well. Hunters, Spriests, Rogues, Paladins.
    I will admit the CD on blink outdoes a lot of other forms of movement. However it is rarely needed vitally blink in quick succession.

    And in current form, the CC we bring is hardly needed. Megeara adds possibly, however it is rare you need to CC anything in a fight these days.

  12. #12
    Mages are in the raid for high damage, and good personal utility in form of both survivability and offense. Our spot is pretty secure in 10 man raiding.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Omgponies View Post
    I wouldnt quote raidbots top 100 as a good guide to go by
    Why do people always refer to top parses at end of season trying to reflect how progression was? At the first 2-3 weeks, where progression really counted, mages were one of the worst classes in 10m, because
    a) low or unreliable dmg
    b) no passive dmg reduction
    c) no raid cds
    Above to that, Arcane is the most immobile specc and rarely useable on any encounter in 10m (because in 10m more shit hits you/you have to handle per player than 25m), and in progression where your raid learns to execute a fight its even worse. Fire DPS largely depends on your crit% and your trinkets and if you can use bloodlust at the start. The only viable specc in progression was frost (for ToT), unless you got gear feeded for fire

  14. #14
    I played frost up until 520 ilvl and 4 piece and still ranked through normals without abusing mechanics or tunnelling so that's not entirely true. I still have several top 100 ranks as fire also.

    Nothing beats blink. Blinking out of shit/into stack points, blinking to kick shells if kicker can't reach it in time, blinking in to cc/interrupt/intercept, blinking into anima ring to break out tanks when melee can't, blinking out of cosmic barrages and taking no damage, etc etc etc. Nothing beats blink! lol

    And hunters can only deterrence or waste their dps cd to double soak, spriests can only disperse, ret pally is melee and I'm pretty sure they can only bubble, and rogues can double soak but they are also melee.

    I remember deep freezing marli's add back in normal, silencing marli, ring for heroic meg adds plus silencing stuns, and sometimes ring for heroic twin adds if they were ever aggroing to the healer. You are right, there aren't many situations where you are CC'ing, but when we do need it it's just as useful as most other ranged classes.

    I'm just playing devil's advocate cause I am bored, lol. I'm all for more mage buffs.

  15. #15
    Ring of frost is not only a PVP spell...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    Why do people always refer to top parses at end of season trying to reflect how progression was? At the first 2-3 weeks, where progression really counted, mages were one of the worst classes in 10m, because
    a) low or unreliable dmg
    b) no passive dmg reduction
    c) no raid cds
    Above to that, Arcane is the most immobile specc and rarely useable on any encounter in 10m (because in 10m more shit hits you/you have to handle per player than 25m), and in progression where your raid learns to execute a fight its even worse. Fire DPS largely depends on your crit% and your trinkets and if you can use bloodlust at the start. The only viable specc in progression was frost (for ToT), unless you got gear feeded for fire
    We have 6-16% physical damage reduction from molten armor and I think we're also getting 15% DR on temporal shield next patch. We also have ice barrier and moonkins and spriests are losing their 15% DR next patch as well? After the first week of ToT, blizzard buffed NT pushing mages back on top so I'm not sure what you are talking about. If you weren't multidotting on horridon, council, and tortos you were doing it wrong. You only played fire if you had your 4 piece and at least 515 ilvl, preferably 520. Using bloodlust at the start affects everyone the same, not just mages.

  17. #17
    Mage utility that was extremely helpful in heroic 10man progression this expansion:

    Blink (arrow pin on spirit kings)
    Spellsteal (limited use, but was handy for protectors)
    Ice Block (soaking/mechanics cheese... loved our mage on heroic council progress)
    Greater Invis (more mechanics cheese)
    Cauterize (obvious benefits when you only get one battleres)
    Ring of Frost (Lei Shi adds... Will of the Emperor adds... lots of niche uses)

    All-in-all its a pretty nice utility package TBH.
    Meddle of <Surprise Cuttlefish> Kilrogg-US

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Celoric View Post
    Ring of frost is not only a PVP spell...
    Its used on one fight, and if your adds get hit, they are unfrozen immediately.

    Blink I will agree is a very helpful spell, but from all the heroic fights I have done. Smokebomb, the Spriest/Moonkin and Elemental healing CDs and all those nifty raid dmg reducing, or extra healing spells are incredibly important/helpful. And mages are kinda like '...Im helping'

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    In 5.2 we were bad for a total of 2 weeks before the bombs got buffed which returned us into a leading position and that's where we still are.

    There is no "mages bad in the beginning" this expansion.
    I was talking only about 5.2, with heoric gear from previous tier (500-525 ilvl), mages were the worst ranged class by a huge difference. The bombs buff wasn't really important for fire/frost (for arcane probably, but that spec wasn't the good one for progression back then, imho)

    Once I got gear I was again topping damage meters but I've already cleared almost all content of ToT when that happened. I'd prefer a class where at the beginning of a tier I can make a difference for progression.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by meddle View Post
    Ice Block (soaking/mechanics cheese... loved our mage on heroic council progress).
    Lol completely forgot about ice blocking frostbite! That was a huge difference maker on that fight, even more so if you had a druid to symbiosis.

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