No Utility/Raid CD, Hurts 10man position?

[Deleted]

Like I have said previously, mage isn't the only class that bring BL/Hero. After, Like I have said before too, if the mage could have done 5% more DPS, I could have say OK there needed to beat the enrage timer.
But it's not the case.

On a second hand, we have a number of guild, from top world to normal progress, that exchange mage for warlock (or a 2nd one) on fight like Qwon HM and Animus HM.
It's not foolish, it just they can without losing any thing add the little utility that can help a lot for downing the boss.

Why the mage ?
because it's the class the most easy to replace. Mage aren't hybrid, it don't have any useful spell that can help on this fight.
I don't say they don't have useful spell.

But there's certainly other class that are also in the balance on other fight.

[spaace]

I haven't done 10s in a while.. but from my experiences in the past..
With either 10s or CMs.. you really would balance the raid "around" the mage, rather then try to bring a mage to "fill" a dps spot...

without certain buffs, like magic debuff, mastery and haste, we kinda cripple ourselves compared to other classes.. that basically give themselves the buffs they need/want. Sure we get 10%sp, 5% crit.. but there are others.(mostly because the most of us gear for that 5% extra haste, without even realizing it sometimes).

Luckily there are some classes that can bring much utility.. (hunters mostly).. only if they'd bring that dragonhawk when you need it, rather then another "cat because I like it even though we have mastery already" ;D

[Not Againnn]

I haven't done 10s in a while.. but from my experiences in the past..
With either 10s or CMs.. you really would balance the raid "around" the mage, rather then try to bring a mage to "fill" a dps spot...

without certain buffs, like magic debuff, mastery and haste, we kinda cripple ourselves compared to other classes.. that basically give themselves the buffs they need/want. Sure we get 10%sp, 5% crit.. but there are others.(mostly because the most of us gear for that 5% extra haste, without even realizing it sometimes).

Luckily there are some classes that can bring much utility.. (hunters mostly).. only if they'd bring that dragonhawk when you need it, rather then another "cat because I like it even though we have mastery already" ;D

yes, this is basically it. if youre good enough, your raid leader will want to bring you. topping meters and pushing out dps is just as important as keeping the raid alive.

id rather have 1 raid cooldown and a heavy dps mage than 2 raid cooldowns.

[voltaa]

id rather have 1 raid cooldown and a heavy dps mage than 2 raid cooldowns.

Yes and no, there are times when you absolutely need that second raid CD and no amount of dps will help you, on the other hand our lack of RAID utility is really overplayed, it doesn't gimp raid spots outside of top 10 (or less) kills unless your raid leader is one of those shoehorns that just does what the top guilds did regardless.

[Kholdstare]

Yes.

The bigger question here is do you?

You hurt any point you try to make by throwing out statistics that mean nothing when it comes to comparing dps. Saying mages are the top dps because some fire mages benefited the most from crazy rng and gear scaling is sneaky and wrong.

We are a real good dps class yes, but saying we are without a doubt the best dps in the game because fire can get lucky? Try a different approach.

[voltaa]

You hurt any point you try to make by throwing out statistics that mean nothing when it comes to comparing dps. Saying mages are the top dps because some fire mages benefited the most from crazy rng and gear scaling is sneaky and wrong.

We are a real good dps class yes, but saying we are without a doubt the best dps in the game because fire can get lucky? Try a different approach.

This is exactly why I think there should be a different kind of top 100 system available different than raidbots top 100 parses, my idea is to have the data taken from the top 100 of each spec to clear the tier, and those 100 players become the standard for the tier, so rather than averaging the top 100 parses, we can see an average of the parses of the top 100 players, and see where the specs really lie without so many outliers. In this case I still think fire would be consistently at or near the top spec on many fights as crazy RNG only really accounts for the top few parses.

Mages are very strong dps right now, enough to offset a raidwide sprint or something of the sort. Nath was saying that his guild was bringing a druid and lock over him for gates and sprint, this is a nice convenience but nowhere near needed or a good enough reason to sit a top dps.

[Visor]

Mages still have much more week positions then a locks for example. If raid have no mages do this raid meet any serious problem only because "omg no mages in raid"? And now try to think about lei shen hc or iron qon without any warlock. Feel a difference? Also locks provide healthstones and this is VERY helpful. All this cries about "block" and "cauterize" isnt viable. Almost all classes can soak high damage with def abilities. And do that more often then mages. RoF? Common where it really necessary in ToT?
Mages have weakest spot in raid. The only reason to get a mage - this mage are PRO. And he play better then other ppl in raid: do more damage, take less. If he have same average stats like any1 in raid - no really reason to take them. Especially if you have long roster.

[voltaa]

@visor, I don't think any class can soak more high damage abilities in a short period than mages, three high damage soaks in 1.5 minutes, 1 every 45 seconds, that's huge. And as for lei shen with no warlocks, we had nights where two locks wouldn't show up and we got by just fine.

[Deleted]

Yes and no, there are times when you absolutely need that second raid CD and no amount of dps will help you, on the other hand our lack of RAID utility is really overplayed [...]

I think I agree on both parts, but the first one is the more important. Perhaps being on much a lower level of progression (3h/13) gives me a slightly different perspective. Many of our "harder" normal kills in ToT and that very few hc I've seen were mostly about dmg taken, I mean the type of Lightning Storm of Jin, Rampage of Mega, Quills of Jikun, Molten Inferno of Qon, Violent Gale Winds of Lei Shen etc., perhaps there are even better examples, and not the usual "have brains and don't stand in fire" stuff. Being the glass cannon of top dmg taken is not an advantage, even if you use barrier / TS / IB well.

On topic of Iron Qon, I don't think I will see that boss anytime soon, lock gate / boomkin tranq is preferred, even needed when struggling to get to p4 and survive there. Maybe some later bosses will be different.

[Hasufer]

we had nights where two locks wouldn't show up and we got by just fine.

cept we are a 10man guild, so it was our 1 lock :P

[Polarthief]

Yes and no, there are times when you absolutely need that second raid CD and no amount of dps will help you, on the other hand our lack of RAID utility is really overplayed, it doesn't gimp raid spots outside of top 10 (or less) kills unless your raid leader is one of those shoehorns that just does what the top guilds did regardless.

Although I'll say at any point should no Mage spec be in the top 5 for DPS, any heroic 10 guild will sit you, and any heroic 25 guild will ask you to play an another toon.

Assuming said guilds are trying to fully clear heroic content while it's still relevant...


I will admit it's really irritating to have 0 raid cooldowns (Time Warp doesn't count because it only takes ONE Mage/Shaman/BM Hunter for the entire raid to have it) and 0 raid utility (FOOD AND PORTALS DO NOT COUNT -_-), and after playing my Shaman for a bit, it was like playing a whole new game. Although, until our DPS significantly gimps well under Warlocks (or other ranged!), we probably won't lose spots except in the world first guilds (and if you're at that level, you probably have 4-6 classes already in 540+ gear, so you won't give a shit who you play as anyways)

[voltaa]

@ pew, I wouldn't go so far as saying any guild would sit you/ask for a different toon, I don't believe my guild sat a mage for ANY progression fights this tier, regardless of us not always being optimal, that's 3 mages on every fight. Now I know this discussion is ten man based, but 3 mages on 25 on every fight is = 1 mage on every fight on ten. Making sweeping assumptions about what "every heroic guild" does leads to misinformation being spread

Edit: I know I said 3 on every fight and wowprogress shows two on some fights, that's due to not being around for the kill, never being sat.

[mrgreenthump]

Making sweeping assumptions about what "every heroic guild" does leads to misinformation being spread

Still doesn't make it fun being in those "heroic" guilds.

[voltaa]

Still doesn't make it fun being in those "heroic" guilds.

Not quite sure I'm picking up what you are putting down

[mrgreenthump]

Not quite sure I'm picking up what you are putting down

The point of this thread was that there could be someone that could do the job as well, get less damage, and give utility compared to mages. Now being in a top guild that would mean mages getting sat. Not saying this is the case atm, but still that was my point.

[voltaa]

The point of this thread was that there could be someone that could do the job as well, get less damage, and give utility compared to mages. Now being in a top guild that would mean mages getting sat. Not saying this is the case atm, but still that was my point.

ah I see what you're getting at here, regardless of "the rest of us" those few guys in the top ten get dumped on when CDs are needed, but I mean that's the nature of the game they play, which is a completely different game than the rest of us

[spaace]

A little late.. but why would anyone want a warlock over mage for HM Qon? lol =(



You know there is a difference between a "heroic" raiding guild, and world first guild right?
World first guilds take fotm classes to win... Thats why most of them have tons of alts.. "Oh lets all bring druids this week.. *coughNEFARIANcough*

Heroic raiding guilds do it with their classes (for the most part)


If your guild is still struggling with horridon and they're telling your mage to re-roll, then I'm pretty sure the problem is with the guild not the mage..
But if everyone is the same ilvl and the mage is getting shit on, then its the mage's problem for sucking.


But really.. show me a top 10 world guild(25 man only. 10s dont count) these last 2 tiers where they didn't have atleast 1/2 mages.


Seriously.. people who think mages are useless.. really need to stop playing their mage.. because it's obviously not the right class for you.

[Deleted]

I agree with the stuff you just wrote, but what do you mean "10s dont count", this thread is ABOUT 10s. If you wanna discuss mages in 25s, go make a new one. I don't want to get deeper into that discussion with 25 and 10, im just saying you don't make sense speaking of 25 mans in a thread which title says 10 man position in pure English. Wtf?

[Not Againnn]

@visor, I don't think any class can soak more high damage abilities in a short period than mages, three high damage soaks in 1.5 minutes, 1 every 45 seconds, that's huge. And as for lei shen with no warlocks, we had nights where two locks wouldn't show up and we got by just fine.

this. mages just being mages buffs the group. Not having to heal me while i cheese the mechanic, maintain incredible dps and laugh at everybody else causes everybody to win. again.

personally, I'd rather rely on one very good mage than one very good warlock/hunter/rogue.

from a pure dps -- non-hybrid -- perspective, you can even argue that the fact you dont have to heal a mage half the time is enough raid utility. passively save healer mana and gcds :P


our job is to do damage. maximize that and any raid will want you regardless of format.

[Kiry]

I'm a 541 fire mage in a 9/13 10 man guild. I'm lucky to be in this guild that gets through content. We utilize the classes we have to get through mechanics. I believe that I am welcomed because most of the time I survive and do dps. While I'm not the best fire mage out there, I do ok, and I'm alive. Alive dps = good dps.
All of us are generally close together on fights on dps (rogue, hunter, warlock, boom, me).

I'm not fond of fire. I do not care for doing "ok", doing "really well" and doing "meh" depending on my rng. I do "ok". That's different from previous tiers.

I'm not flailing my hands crying the world is coming to an end. However, I am watching twitter feeds, forums posts, and PTR notes and wondering if my "fun" as a progressive mage raider is done. I just don't want another teir of doing "ok" and doing "meh". That's not fun, and that's my decision to make.