No Utility/Raid CD, Hurts 10man position?

[syandell86]

If your DPS is high enough they'll get raid utility elsewhere and still bring you.

[Tarazet]

If your DPS is high enough they'll get raid utility elsewhere and still bring you.

Pretty much.

It always kind of works like this - on world first progression, they try to get the absolute maximum out of the classes that have utility. Every member will have multiple toons at max level that they can swap out if they think a different class can bring something more helpful. But you can bet there's almost always going to be a Mage, a Rogue, and a Warlock in the first kill group. And this has been the case in every single expansion.

[Pandacally]

Pretty much.

It always kind of works like this - on world first progression, they try to get the absolute maximum out of the classes that have utility. Every member will have multiple toons at max level that they can swap out if they think a different class can bring something more helpful. But you can bet there's almost always going to be a Mage, a Rogue, and a Warlock in the first kill group. And this has been the case in every single expansion.

Thats totally wrong, mage and Rogue were the least represented classes in 10m HC firstkills all throughout MoP....

[Pua]

your one paragraph proved my point like 4 times over.
good job lol.

No, it's utterly refuted your point.

Mages need nothing, while you're arguing they need "something".

They have practically everything already.

The only way I'd be proving your point is if it was so mired in contradiction, or appallingly bad English, that you could literally flip it and say "Ha, I'm right!"

Alas, that's not how discussions in the real world work.

Back to the circus, flea.

Class-unique utility is bad, not good.

The game needs less, not more.

Bring the player not the class.

That mantra hasn't worked, though, has it? All it's done is separate classes into the "have nots" without any "haves" - this is largely because the hybrid tax is being paid in some places, but not in others. Tanks are probably the best example, if you think about it: paladins, druids and monks each have a tank spec, a DPS spec and a healer spec. Their healer spec is what gives them (amazingly) heals, which is a part of their toolkit. Warriors and death knights, however, have no benefit for having two DPS specs, and are actually lacking in damage. In short, they're paying the hybrid tax while paladins, monks and druids are not.

This is happening in other places, too.

Rogues versus Feral druids (or even warriors and paladins) is a good example of the druid paying the hybrid tax because their damage simply isn't comparable to a rogue. The rogue, on the other hand, has pretty terrible utility and may well see himself sidelined as a result of that. Shadow priests, owls or Elemental shammies aren't even remotely close to warlocks or mages in damage, but warlocks and mages now also outshine them on utility with the exception of, arguably, the shaman. The problem here simply becomes "why take them?" Hunters are suffering because they should be up there with warlocks and mages, but aren't, and have no real utility of their own to bring.

What I'm saying is, hybrids used to work when players accepted the tax. Now, with nobody willing to accept it, threads like these pop up because everyone has to have everything. "Bring the player not the class" is a subversive way of saying "homogeneity is where we're headed". Gone are the days when melee classes did the interrupting and cleaving, so when ranged specs all get those tools melee get shoved out because of the inherent disadvantage of simply being melee.

TL, DR?

"Bring the player, not the class" has flopped in my opinion, and the sooner hybrids are properly accounted for again, the better.

No, mage DPS being the top is just an accident.

We can be pretty sure it's intentional; after all, it's been happening non-stop since WotLK.

[voltaa]

Thats totally wrong, mage and Rogue were the least represented classes in 10m HC firstkills all throughout MoP....

I can't speak for last tier, but 11/13 of the absolute world first 10m kills this tier had a mage

[Pua]

I can't speak for last tier, but 11/13 of the absolute world first 10m kills this tier had a mage

I'm pretty sure Method had one for Ra-den (definitely for Lei Shen), but I'm not sure if you're counting those already.

Edit: Confirmed, Method had two mages in for their Ra-den kill.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure Method had one for Ra-den (definitely for Lei Shen), but I'm not sure if you're counting those already.

I wasn't aware Method raided 10M.

[voltaa]

I'm pretty sure Method had one for Ra-den (definitely for Lei Shen), but I'm not sure if you're counting those already.

Edit: Confirmed, Method had two mages in for their Ra-den kill.

I was looking at 10m, since this thread is more about the 10m issues that mages have, so I was looking at Paragon's kills which 11 of them they had a mage in for

[Drafty]

Leave it to the highest damage class in the game to complain about not having raid utility. That's the pro/con of playing a mage. If you want utility go play a hybrid class, the choice is yours.

Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
I'm pretty sure Method had one for Ra-den (definitely for Lei Shen), but I'm not sure if you're counting those already.

Method brings at least 2 mages to every one of their raids....Paragon (a 10 man) runs with a mage...BL runs with multiple mages. Raid utility or the lack thereof has nothing to do with not bringing a mage. There "glass cannon" characteristics are still intact.

I'm still wondering if the OP was a troll or not.

[Kiry]

All good thoughts, now that we are at the end of the content tier, not sure if I agree that mages came into this teir "ok". We had some struggles just like last teir and had to be adjusted a few weeks in (again).

Anyway - I didn't really feel during normal modes that I had much to offer as a mage other than dps. Now that I'm in heroics (for reference we are 10/13), there's a few things I can do that others cannot that help the healers out, that create a bit of cheesing in mechanics. While it's not raid utility, it's raid success.

I guess that's the point after all. If your guild can be successful with your comp, does individual really matter that much? Maybe, maybe not. Probably depends on the guild.

[voltaa]

All good thoughts, now that we are at the end of the content tier, not sure if I agree that mages came into this teir "ok". We had some struggles just like last teir and had to be adjusted a few weeks in (again).

Anyway - I didn't really feel during normal modes that I had much to offer as a mage other than dps. Now that I'm in heroics (for reference we are 10/13), there's a few things I can do that others cannot that help the healers out, that create a bit of cheesing in mechanics. While it's not raid utility, it's raid success.

I guess that's the point after all. If your guild can be successful with your comp, does individual really matter that much? Maybe, maybe not. Probably depends on the guild.

wait til you get to lei shen, you go from "having no utility" to being one of the best classes in the game to have for the fight, feels good

[Pandacally]

I was looking at 10m, since this thread is more about the 10m issues that mages have, so I was looking at Paragon's kills which 11 of them they had a mage in for

11/13 are not 13/13 though. But I agree, mages are fine if you nerf other classes which are too mandatory in 10m.
And with ToT Mage was better of than with Mogu and halfway to HoF.

[voltaa]

11/13 are not 13/13 though. But I agree, mages are fine if you nerf other classes which are too mandatory in 10m.
And with ToT Mage was better of than with Mogu and halfway to HoF.

but we really don't need to be in 13/13 of the WORLD FIRST 10m kills, arguing that mages aren't in a good spot right now because we weren't the best choice for 2 of the kills is rediculous

[awildpidgeyappears]

And when you have the luxury (as I'm sure paragon does) to hand pick the perfect comp for every fight, you'd probably be hard pressed to find ANY class or spec that's so indispensable it's in for all 13 WF kills.

With that in mind, 11/13 really isn't that bad.

[Deleted]

What utility do you think we bring thats so great?

We have personals like everyone else, but nothing groundbreaking or particulary raid useful

Hunters can provide every stat buff or useful debuff along with bloodlust through their pets... what do you need?

[Not Againnn]

No, it's utterly refuted your point.

Mages need nothing, while you're arguing they need "something".

They have practically everything already.

The only way I'd be proving your point is if it was so mired in contradiction, or appallingly bad English, that you could literally flip it and say "Ha, I'm right!"

Alas, that's not how discussions in the real world work.

Back to the circus, flea.


That mantra hasn't worked, though, has it? All it's done is separate classes into the "have nots" without any "haves" - this is largely because the hybrid tax is being paid in some places, but not in others. Tanks are probably the best example, if you think about it: paladins, druids and monks each have a tank spec, a DPS spec and a healer spec. Their healer spec is what gives them (amazingly) heals, which is a part of their toolkit. Warriors and death knights, however, have no benefit for having two DPS specs, and are actually lacking in damage. In short, they're paying the hybrid tax while paladins, monks and druids are not.

This is happening in other places, too.

Rogues versus Feral druids (or even warriors and paladins) is a good example of the druid paying the hybrid tax because their damage simply isn't comparable to a rogue. The rogue, on the other hand, has pretty terrible utility and may well see himself sidelined as a result of that. Shadow priests, owls or Elemental shammies aren't even remotely close to warlocks or mages in damage, but warlocks and mages now also outshine them on utility with the exception of, arguably, the shaman. The problem here simply becomes "why take them?" Hunters are suffering because they should be up there with warlocks and mages, but aren't, and have no real utility of their own to bring.

What I'm saying is, hybrids used to work when players accepted the tax. Now, with nobody willing to accept it, threads like these pop up because everyone has to have everything. "Bring the player not the class" is a subversive way of saying "homogeneity is where we're headed". Gone are the days when melee classes did the interrupting and cleaving, so when ranged specs all get those tools melee get shoved out because of the inherent disadvantage of simply being melee.

TL, DR?

"Bring the player, not the class" has flopped in my opinion, and the sooner hybrids are properly accounted for again, the better.


We can be pretty sure it's intentional; after all, it's been happening non-stop since WotLK.

you need to read the rest of the thread/learn to read in general.

i said

IF WE WERE TO GET SOMETHING

IT NEEDS TO BE DIFFERENT.

go back and read dude. and stop being so condescending. its rude.

[Kiry]

wait til you get to lei shen, you go from "having no utility" to being one of the best classes in the game to have for the fight, feels good

That doesn't surprise me, when you get to 12/13 or 13/13 you should have the gear for it, our scaling at higher levels is awesome. I'm 543 and its smooth. That said, in the 520 - 530 is annoying as heck cause you are in between phases (so to speak), I couldn't stand fire then.

[voltaa]

That doesn't surprise me, when you get to 12/13 or 13/13 you should have the gear for it, our scaling at higher levels is awesome. I'm 543 and its smooth. That said, in the 520 - 530 is annoying as heck cause you are in between phases (so to speak), I couldn't stand fire then.

I'm not talking from a damage or scaling standpoint, I mean purely utility, we can avoid every single mechanic in that fight

[Pua]

I wasn't aware Method raided 10M.

I wasn't aware there was even a 10m race, outside of Paragon (who raid with a mage).

Method brings at least 2 mages to every one of their raids....Paragon (a 10 man) runs with a mage...BL runs with multiple mages. Raid utility or the lack thereof has nothing to do with not bringing a mage. There "glass cannon" characteristics are still intact.

I'm still wondering if the OP was a troll or not.

Yeah, mage DPS isn't the best in the game at all.

but we really don't need to be in 13/13 of the WORLD FIRST 10m kills, arguing that mages aren't in a good spot right now because we weren't the best choice for 2 of the kills is rediculous

If it's not too much hassle, you could probably count up all 13 of Paragon's heroic kills and check which classes were present most of the time. That'd be a better barometer if you ask me and I daresay their mage, Deawyn, would be near the top.

[Pandacally]

If it's not too much hassle, you could probably count up all 13 of Paragon's heroic kills and check which classes were present most of the time. That'd be a better barometer if you ask me and I daresay their mage, Deawyn, would be near the top.

Present at every first kill:
Lappe (Balance druid)
Devai (Hunter)
Fraggoji (Tank Paladin)
Jhazrun (Disc Priest)
Verdisha (Warlock)
Oixte (Fury Warri)

present 11/13
Smirk (Holy paladin)
Deawyn (Mage)
Sejta (Tank dudu)

rest;
mage switched for warlock
tank dudu switched for tank pala
heal pala switched monk
ele switched for shadow/diszi

So yeah, 6 classes seemed mandatory or too good to not be switched out, just look at their dark animus setup (arguably the hardest encounter this tier with more tries than lei-shen)
2x Pala tank
2x Diszi priest
2x Affi lock
Healpala
Hunter
Balance druid
Fury Warrior
Some quite insane stacking for 10m.