1. #1
    High Overlord
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    OH Weapon Expertise Question

    Hi,

    I'm a Human Warrior and I'm wondering about whether it is worth to get the expertise cap on the OH.

    On the MH I have a Qon's Scimatar so that benefits from the sword specialization to give 1% expertise, however I recently picked up a Shellsplitter axe from Tortos.

    So I haven't been able to figure out if the 1% loss on OH means I may get parried on the wildstrike, RB, WW OH attacks from behind or is it not worth it to go over-cap on the main hand and just go with 7.5%MH 6.5% OH.

  2. #2
    The latter. You will get occasional dodges but well.

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    OH expertise is worth roughly the same as overcap hit. Go 7.5% on MH and 6.5%.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    OH expertise is worth roughly the same as overcap hit. Go 7.5% on MH and 6.5%.

    %1 missing offhand expertise effects raging blow. And raging blow is not a departed attack. You can not blow with main hand and dodge with offhand. You dodge your whole raging blow. So yes, offhand expertise must be 7.5 and main hand will be 8.5 if you don't wanna dodge your raging blows and wild strikes.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragefreak View Post
    %1 missing offhand expertise effects raging blow. And raging blow is not a departed attack. You can not blow with main hand and dodge with offhand. You dodge your whole raging blow. So yes, offhand expertise must be 7.5 and main hand will be 8.5 if you don't wanna dodge your raging blows and wild strikes.
    And you must be hardcap hit if you don't want your white blow to be dodged. That doesn't mean that Hit has a high statweight.
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  6. #6
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    Thanks for the replies, I did recently pick up another Qon's Scimatar, so just to reiterate, is the 1% expertise worth giving up on the extra crit from Tortos axe? its about 240 crit difference after upg/reforging against 1% expertise. They are all non-TF Heroic weapons if that makes any difference at all.

  7. #7
    Armoury please?

  8. #8
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    Currently equipped double scimatars but have the tortos axe enchanted/upgraded etc. so not sure which one to use
    Last edited by Bekro; 2014-02-24 at 03:24 PM.

  9. #9
    Qon scimitar as you have done

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    And you must be hardcap hit if you don't want your white blow to be dodged. That doesn't mean that Hit has a high statweight.
    We're not talking about same thing here. Capping hit to 7.5 and expertise to 7.5 aims not to miss/dodge any special attacks. If your offhand expertise stat is 6.5, you dodge your whole raging blow. It's pretty simple. You must have problems if you compare this with white attacks.

    And back to topic, yes you must use 2x qon scimitars till you get double tf axes.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragefreak View Post
    We're not talking about same thing here. Capping hit to 7.5 and expertise to 7.5 aims not to miss/dodge any special attacks. If your offhand expertise stat is 6.5, you dodge your whole raging blow. It's pretty simple. You must have problems if you compare this with white attacks.

    And back to topic, yes you must use 2x qon scimitars till you get double tf axes.
    Sigh. The SEP of offhand expertise is roughly .5. SEP ACCOUNTS for chances to miss. It's why hit/expertise SEP vary.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragefreak View Post
    We're not talking about same thing here. Capping hit to 7.5 and expertise to 7.5 aims not to miss/dodge any special attacks. If your offhand expertise stat is 6.5, you dodge your whole raging blow. It's pretty simple. You must have problems if you compare this with white attacks.

    And back to topic, yes you must use 2x qon scimitars till you get double tf axes.
    My point was that the fact you may liss or be dodged doesn't mean the stat is top priority. During Cataclysm, for instance, unholy dk didn't use Expertise.
    It's important to know such mechanism to compute stat weight, but once you know that Crit has a higher weight that OH expertise, there's no point to argue that you might be dodged. Yes, you might. Still, it's worth it.
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  13. #13
    if you compare expertise stats for %100 physical attacking warrior against %70 spell damage attacking uh dk on lk and cata, you're nuts.

    I've tried out myself, also checked via simulationcraft while equipping 541 axe from lei shen on main hand and 541 council sword / 535 axe rom lei shen. Tried it with both 541's 7.5 / 6.5 and it 8.5 / 7.5. Didn't work out very well since that sword got shitty stats except wep damage. Best result was with 541 / 535 axes from lei shen, my observ. and simcraft results were match. But, 8.5 / 7.5 was also higher dps then 7.5 / 6.5 was also my observation and simcraft result. (all the weapons were upgraded +8) Stop misguiding people.

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  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragefreak View Post
    if you compare expertise stats for %100 physical attacking warrior against %70 spell damage attacking uh dk on lk and cata, you're nuts.

    I've tried out myself, also checked via simulationcraft while equipping 541 axe from lei shen on main hand and 541 council sword / 535 axe rom lei shen. Tried it with both 541's 7.5 / 6.5 and it 8.5 / 7.5. Didn't work out very well since that sword got shitty stats except wep damage. Best result was with 541 / 535 axes from lei shen, my observ. and simcraft results were match. But, 8.5 / 7.5 was also higher dps then 7.5 / 6.5 was also my observation and simcraft result. (all the weapons were upgraded +8) Stop misguiding people.

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    First, I never compared to any other class. Second, you're comparing shitty weapons to non shitty weapons and saying it's conclusive. Not to mention it is impossible for you to compare DPS by yourself, sample size is much too small. Third, you're not even gemming right! You should have 3x Crafty oranges in your chest, and not reforge into expertise, but instead into mastery Also, 2 more craftys somewhere else and don't reforge into expertise on your gloves That also makes the socket bonus on gloves worth getting. Fourth, and this may not apply if you're just really unlucky, but you DO know that even normal Feather is better than heroic TF primordius trinket, right?

    You're doing too many things wrong for me to consider your "results" reliable.

  15. #15
    well then, first if you read posts more carefully or just read above mine, you'd see who i'm talking to.
    second, simcraft confirms my results, i assume you did not read carefully again, because i'm not comparing just shitty wep against not shitty, i did compare non shitty wep against +8 item levelled and weapon damaged shitty wep.
    Third i don't give a shit about re-gemming after changing a single item, i just gem it inscribed, my gear and farming easy bosses allows it. Difference is below %1 maybe much less. You compare %1 mastery against 400 str or smth. gain is too low to notice and expense is unworthy.
    Fourth, better trinket is situational on combat. If you can just dps the boss down in linear dps line, feather is fine. But the dps line is quite curvy and you miss the procs of feather on those peaks, that's just a bully trinket. Sometimes you get it proc on the peaks, that results incredibly amazing but sometimes you just waste it. more RNG? no ty. I also just got this one and giving out a try on some fights.

    These do not show i'm right or you are wrong. These are just choices. I respect your opinion, and i expect the same from you, instead of being arrogant.
    Last edited by Ragefreak; 2013-07-06 at 12:43 AM.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    I don't respect your opinion because you chose to not do something that is objectively correct. Your lack of formatting and clarity doesn't make your post easier to understand either, although since you're EU it might just be a case of ESL.

    All in all, you're wrong. You are gemming wrong, you are using the wrong trinkets, and you seem to be content with not playing at the peak. Fine. I don't respect that at all. Who you raid with is your choice, I can respect that. Knowing you're doing something wrong and doing it anyway? Never.

    As for the reason. Offhand RB and WS is less than 15% of damage, on average. Be generous and say 20%. So you're comparing 1% chance to miss on 20% of damage, which is .2% of your damage. Plus a little change for white hit and rage. Compare that to 1% mastery, which is basically 1% extra damage up at least 75% of the time, at higher gear levels even much higher, especially in AoE situations.

    If you got Sim-C to show differently, you were doing it wrong.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-07-06 at 02:12 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragefreak View Post
    Fourth, better trinket is situational on combat. If you can just dps the boss down in linear dps line, feather is fine. But the dps line is quite curvy and you miss the procs of feather on those peaks, that's just a bully trinket. Sometimes you get it proc on the peaks, that results incredibly amazing but sometimes you just waste it. more RNG? no ty. I also just got this one and giving out a try on some fights.
    http://gyazo.com/14b8c7e2e2e5a18524b391712ebae64b

    Yeah, no. Primordius is an abomination of a trinket, and if even if you take into consideration the low points of both trinkets, represented here by looking at the 5th percentile, the Feather is still 1k better.

    I will give you that the MINIMUM for the feather is lower than the minimum of primordius. However, 98% of the time, the feather will be a vastly superior trinket to Primordius.
    Last edited by CollisionTD; 2013-07-06 at 06:03 AM.

  18. #18
    To answer the original poster.

    Going with 7.5% - 6.5% is the way to go. ALL Yellow attacks (No matter if it's "offhand attacks") is based on your mainhand expertise. anything over the 6.5% on your offhand would have the same effect as hit above the cap, it would increase your rage generation, but it's a very weak, compared to other stats.
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  19. #19
    For the expertise question, don't cap your off-hand. The SEP of expertise if you have 0 of it is around 1.81, compared to crit/mastery/haste which are 0.85-0.9, 0.7-0.8, 0.6-0.7.

    Here are the list of attacks that are rolled based on OH or MH.

    MH:
    Colossus Smash (2% of damage, drastically increases damage of everything else.)
    Bloodthirst (6.3% + 5.4% deep wounds)
    Execute (12.6%)
    Heroic Strike (10.4%)
    Dragon Roar (3.1%)
    Main-hand Melee Attack (13%)
    IV/HT/Leap/Legendary Meta (4%)

    In regards to raging blow, the game uses a weird system to roll for it. Yes, dodged OH attacks lead to missed MH attacks, but I believe the game combines MH and OH, then averages it out to get the dodge chance. For now, I'll assume worst case scenario, and that OH expertise determines if the whole damn thing hits.
    OH:
    Raging Blow (19% of damage)
    Wild Strike (4%)
    Off-hand Melee (11% of damage)

    So, without considering that you get rage/enrages/extra damage/RB procs from BT/CS, MH attacks deal about 54% of your damage, while OH does 34%.

    0.34*1.81 SEP = 0.61 SEP. That's with giving the benefit of the doubt to OH Expertise capping.

    OH Expertise is barely worth more than overcap hit, and is worth about the same as haste. It's not worth picking up.
    Last edited by CollisionTD; 2013-07-06 at 04:34 PM.

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