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  1. #281
    If you're in the right place at the right time you can find a good pug. And there are things you can do to make sure you're in the right place too. I put some of my alts in an insanely large raiding (6000+ members) guild in hopes that I could fill my "off-time" with more casual raiding. The guild is part of a raiding podcast community so most everyone in the guild has the same aspirations of raiding.

    One night I was looking for a ToT pug in that alt guild and couldn't find one...so I started my own. I only required above 495 ilvl and at least ToT LFR experience. I picked up a mix of people ranging from 1/12 to 7/12 (I have a full clear experience). We went 5/12.

    On the other hand I would never start a ToT pug on my main's server because...well... I've been in recent groups that wiped on Sha. There is a difference between being inexperienced and just being a terrible player. Since my faction can't even kill Sha (much less Oondasta) then I won't even bother with pugging LFR.

    The point is if you're in the wrong guild,faction or server you probably will never find a pug. May be the virtual realms will make this better. If the virtual realms just combine a bunch a small servers I doubt it will because the more raiding driven players have already transfered off to better servers. We'll just end up with a concentration of terrible players who will still wipe on Sha.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Agreed, but I can't really fault people for going cheap on some enchants; the prices of the higher-end ones (at least on my realm) are outright ridiculous. For instance, Dancing Steel goes for just under 3k, which makes it crazy expensive for anything other than near-BiS weapons. Gems tend to sell for 300-500g which while not a lot can get very expensive when you are looking at several.

    .
    Hc raiders buy stuff from bAH for hundred of thousand of gold and u say 3k is expensive - just dont :/ if u dont care about ur gear to famr some gold to but enchants/gems dont expect people carrying u while u underperform ;/

  3. #283
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I don't know about you, but farming gold doesn't seem trivially easy for me. I can get some via dailies and when I get lucky on the AH, but I don't play the AH like some people do to make hundreds of thousands; I think the most I've ever had was about 20k and I used half of that to powerlevel professions. Besides, there's usually a negligible difference between the high-end and the second-best enchants that doesn't matter to most people outside of the top progression raiders. Gems are pretty much the only exception where you really don't want to use the green-quality gems except in gear that you plan to replace in a couple of runs.
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  4. #284
    Elemental Lord Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temperance Brennan View Post
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Nzall/advanced

    I'm at wits end. I can get nothing from LFR except a belt and 4P T15. I can get minor upgrades from heroic caches for some slots. but every time I try to join a normal ToT raid pug from trade, I get a reply in the vein of "sorry, you don't have any kills" or "looking for someone with more exp". And that's if they don't simply demand AotC right away, even for a non-lei shen pug. They check armory, so I cannot fake my achievement.

    I could bribe someone, but that would take quite abit of time. I could join a guild, but I have nothing but bad experiences from guilds, either from malicious guild masters or from ignorant and dumb guildies. and even if I can find a decent guild, they ALSO ASK EXP...

    It's a vicious circle: I can't get EXP because I don't have any EXP.

    When I look at your armory this is what I see.


    Someone that does not raid very much. I'm sorry but looking at your history doesn't show a good track record. You have at most 3-4 kills on any normal content.
    This would show you might not be here every week when you are needed.

    As far as having kills. I'm going to guess you are trying to apply to a guild already clearing heroics. Most guild clearing normal modes won't mind having you in guild.


    *edit*
    Completely missed the not looking for a guild part.
    Last edited by Baar; 2013-07-15 at 03:27 PM.

  5. #285
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    This has always been the case. If it wasn't gearscore it was iLevel. If not iLevel it was "link achieve". People whine about a lack of skilled players, but aren't willing to actually HELP other players get the skill that they demand.
    I'm not going to take someone without experience to my 10/13H runs because of the off-chance he's actually a decent player. If he was, I would expect he would already have some raiding experience under his/her belt this tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    When I look at your armory this is what I see.


    Someone that does not raid very much. I'm sorry but looking at your history doesn't show a good track record. You have at most 3-4 kills on any normal content.
    This would show you might not be here every week when you are needed.
    Irrelevant remark. Not only could he have raided on another toon in the past, like many players have, but his past situation is by no means indicative of his current situation. Past raiding experience is massively overrated.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I don't know about you, but farming gold doesn't seem trivially easy for me. I can get some via dailies and when I get lucky on the AH, but I don't play the AH like some people do to make hundreds of thousands; I think the most I've ever had was about 20k and I used half of that to powerlevel professions. Besides, there's usually a negligible difference between the high-end and the second-best enchants that doesn't matter to most people outside of the top progression raiders. Gems are pretty much the only exception where you really don't want to use the green-quality gems except in gear that you plan to replace in a couple of runs.
    The difference between a green gem and the blue version is often smaller than that between the top tier enchant and an enchant for the same item slot one tier behind that.
    Last edited by Myz; 2013-07-15 at 03:30 PM.

  6. #286
    Elemental Lord Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    I'm not going to take someone without experience to my 10/13H runs because of the off-chance he's actually a decent player. If he was, I would expect he would already have some raiding experience under his/her belt this tier.



    Irrelevant remark. Not only could he have raided on another toon in the past, like many players have, but his past situation is by no means indicative of his current situation. Past raiding experience is massively overrated.

    If he raided on another toon he could link that toon?

    Past raid experience means a lot.


    Tell me the truth. Would you bring him along for your guild raids? If not why? 515 is enough to get started in heroics.

  7. #287
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    If he raided on another toon he could link that toon?

    Past raid experience means a lot.


    Tell me the truth. Would you bring him along for your guild raids? If not why? 515 is enough to get started in heroics.
    I would be willing to bet that the real reason is lack of experience, not gear. Most guilds, even hardcore ones, are willing to overlook slightly-undergeared people, but very few are willing to risk wiping on content to bring someone inexperienced. This is perfectly understandable for guilds that are still working on the content (normal or heroic), as time spent recovering from wipes on earlier bosses is less time spent on the boss you're actually working on; it's less understandable for a high-end guild that already has 13/13H on farm because it's all on farm and you've already beaten it so who cares if you derp around for a week and wipe on some heroics because you brought a new healer that hasn't done ToT outside of LFR - progression is done already. Of course I've never been in a guild of that caliber so maybe there's a reason why it's bad but it almost seems like a 13/13H guild should be more willing to take a chance on someone with less experience in prep for the next raid tier, since wiping on farm bosses isn't a big deal when you've been farming the heroic raid for weeks already, but instead they seem to only want people from other 13/13H guilds (or close to that) even when progression is done. I would be genuinely curious why that is.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-07-15 at 03:44 PM.
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  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    [...]Past raiding experience is massively overrated.[...]
    Depends. If you've raided in a top500 environment before for an extended amount of time then it is highly unlikely that you cannot just pick up any class and outperform most other players.

    Past 'normal' experience though is rather pointless as you really cannot judge personal skill from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    [...] It's less understandable for a high-end guild that already has 13/13H on farm because it's all on farm and you've already beaten it so who cares if you derp around for a week and wipe on some heroics because you brought a new healer that hasn't done ToT outside of LFR - progression is done already. [...] Since wiping on farm bosses isn't a big deal when you've been farming the heroic raid for weeks already, but instead they seem to only want people from other 13/13H guilds (or close to that) even when progression is done. I would be genuinely curious why that is.
    Because a good guild does not have time to wade through 50,000 LFR players to find the one diamond in the rough. Unless you have played with people from that guild in the past a LFR player will not get the chance to try out in a 13/13 guild. It's a waste of time how would you even judge their 502ilvl numbers anyway?

    Also causing wipes on farm bosses is the prime reason of failing a trial. Failing on farm content is aggrivating to most high end players because they do not enjoy the content anymore and want to get out of there asap. (Keep in mind they have been farming it for weeks on multiple characters probably.) They expect you to know the boss BEFORE you come to raid and not learn as you go.
    Last edited by gend; 2013-07-15 at 04:37 PM.

  9. #289
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    Depends. If you've raided in a top500 environment before for an extended amount of time then it is highly unlikely that you cannot just pick up any class and outperform most other players.

    Past 'normal' experience though is rather pointless as you really cannot judge personal skill from that.



    Because a good guild does not have time to wade through 50,000 LFR players to find the one diamond in the rough. Unless you have played with people from that guild in the past a LFR player will not get the chance to try out in a 13/13 guild. It's a waste of time how would you even judge their 502ilvl numbers anyway?

    Also causing wipes on farm bosses is the prime reason of failing a trial. Failing on farm content is aggrivating to most high end players because they do not enjoy the content anymore and want to get out of there asap. (Keep in mind they have been farming it for weeks on multiple characters probably.) They expect you to know the boss BEFORE you come to raid and not learn as you go.
    That makes sense; my point was more that I would imagine a guild already clearing the content to be more willing to give trials to decent-looking applicants without specifically looking for people from similar guilds, not necessarily to allow any LFR person to join up. Most heroic guilds tend to always say they're looking for skilled apps, but what they really seem to mean is at or just below the same level as them, even when progress is over and the server first race is (often) won.
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  10. #290
    High Overlord Berianther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    it's less understandable for a high-end guild that already has 13/13H on farm because it's all on farm and you've already beaten it so who cares if you derp around for a week and wipe on some heroics because you brought a new healer that hasn't done ToT outside of LFR - progression is done already. Of course I've never been in a guild of that caliber so maybe there's a reason why it's bad but it almost seems like a 13/13H guild should be more willing to take a chance on someone with less experience in prep for the next raid tier, since wiping on farm bosses isn't a big deal when you've been farming the heroic raid for weeks already, but instead they seem to only want people from other 13/13H guilds (or close to that) even when progression is done. I would be genuinely curious why that is.
    Why do you think 13/13H guild would take the time to completely train a new 0/13H person in heroic raiding when they can just get similarly progressed apps with 10-13H kills and only train them on the more difficult bosses such as lei shen or dark animus. Most 13/13H guild full clear ToT in 1 or 1.5 nights and will not waste time wiping due to inexperienced apps. Most would rather have an alt raid that usually goes slower and there may be a chance for lesser progressed folks to get in it. Also there may be 13/13H guild at this point willing to sell 1 carry spot in their raid for gold and that may compensate their risk in taking some random underexperienced person.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Berianther View Post
    Why do you think 13/13H guild would take the time to completely train a new 0/13H person in heroic raiding when they can just get similarly progressed apps with 10-13H kills and only train them on the more difficult bosses such as lei shen or dark animus. Most 13/13H guild full clear ToT in 1 or 1.5 nights and will not waste time wiping due to inexperienced apps. Most would rather have an alt raid that usually goes slower and there may be a chance for lesser progressed folks to get in it. Also there may be 13/13H guild at this point willing to sell 1 carry spot in their raid for gold and that may compensate their risk in taking some random underexperienced person.
    Because a 13/13H guild may be recruiting for bodies (over gear) for the next tier. A 13/13H guild will surely cut their required raid days and start doing alt runs like you mentioned - this is a perfect environment to bring in a competent albeit undergeared/experienced player.

    A progressing guild (say a 8/13H guild) can't afford to bring in an undergeared/experienced player since they're most likely racing to clear the content before the new patch and cannot afford any delays.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Temperance Brennan View Post
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Nzall/advanced

    I'm at wits end. I can get nothing from LFR except a belt and 4P T15. I can get minor upgrades from heroic caches for some slots. but every time I try to join a normal ToT raid pug from trade, I get a reply in the vein of "sorry, you don't have any kills" or "looking for someone with more exp". And that's if they don't simply demand AotC right away, even for a non-lei shen pug. They check armory, so I cannot fake my achievement.

    I could bribe someone, but that would take quite abit of time. I could join a guild, but I have nothing but bad experiences from guilds, either from malicious guild masters or from ignorant and dumb guildies. and even if I can find a decent guild, they ALSO ASK EXP...

    It's a vicious circle: I can't get EXP because I don't have any EXP.
    You're not in a vicious circle. Joining a guild is the answer...and as I can tell from your recent activity, it looks like that's what you did.

    Anyone see how this particular person screams an advertisement for flex raiding? I can't wait, myself.

  13. #293
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berianther View Post
    Why do you think 13/13H guild would take the time to completely train a new 0/13H person in heroic raiding when they can just get similarly progressed apps with 10-13H kills and only train them on the more difficult bosses such as lei shen or dark animus. Most 13/13H guild full clear ToT in 1 or 1.5 nights and will not waste time wiping due to inexperienced apps. Most would rather have an alt raid that usually goes slower and there may be a chance for lesser progressed folks to get in it. Also there may be 13/13H guild at this point willing to sell 1 carry spot in their raid for gold and that may compensate their risk in taking some random underexperienced person.
    Pretty much this. As I've already said in a previous post, some guilds (mine included) do in fact give a chance to inexperienced players, IF their application is really good. When we did trial the 2 inexperienced players, we were only 7/13 Heroic. Now, I don't know tbh. It would have to be a damn good applicant with experience from previous Tiers, some really good logs (obviously based on his/her gear). Cause at this point, we might as well sell a spot - which we don't - cause we don't wanna boost random ppl to stuff they did not earn.

    Giving a trial to someone who's got nothing but LFR experience, when you're a 13/13 Heroic guild is just really unlikely to happen tbh. As someone else said, it's like looking for that one diamond among a shit ton of baddies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Because a 13/13H guild may be recruiting for bodies (over gear) for the next tier. A 13/13H guild will surely cut their required raid days and start doing alt runs like you mentioned - this is a perfect environment to bring in a competent albeit undergeared/experienced player.

    A progressing guild (say a 8/13H guild) can't afford to bring in an undergeared/experienced player since they're most likely racing to clear the content before the new patch and cannot afford any delays.
    I wouldn't recruit someone just to test him/her in our alt runs, where we're just derping around. There's no challenge in Normals now and unless the trial only has LFR gear and no VP or crafted, he/she will be way overgeared for that as well. I'd want to test the trial in the main raid, to see how they hold up. How fast will they learn and adapt? Will they fail on simple mechanics? Can they do a decent output, while dealing with mechanics? Will they communicate on TS? Will they come prepared or just show up and expect to be carried?

  14. #294
    Dreadlord DrMcNinja's Avatar
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    It's also a massive lack in trust.

    Sometimes even when I pull off the greatest application in the world with a lot of work put into them, and even if they react positively it always comes down to 'Sorry but no experience this tier. We don't boost encounters'.

    I remember doing Gruul's Kara and stuff, hell, even a TEMPEST KEEP run with 0 experience back in the old days. They were more like 'Are you geared? k. Just do as we tell you to, don't die and you won't get kicked'

  15. #295
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    my guild recently took in 5 trials based on my connection with them during past progress, their ilvl was between 520 and 535 (they had 2-6hc bosses in 10man for this tier). No application, past experience and having someone in the guild you're applying to that you know and they can "go good" for your skill is really handy.

    I've accepted applicants (when I was officer in my previous guild) purely based on raid experience in the past, as long as a guild is on "farm" status weather that's a normal mode declearing themselves "done" for the tier or a 13/13hc hardcore guild your chances for getting in even with shit gear and not much present raiding experience increases a lot. With your gear and past raiding history (most recent anyways) I wouldn't even consider applying to a heroic mode guild... get into a normal mode guild, raid a lot and hope for gear and then find a better guild. Guild jumping (however disgusting it is) is how most players evolve, your current guild isn't doing as well as you want do be doing and you think you can do better? move on. Don't be a bitch to them though, let them know in advance that you plan to leave. The people you leave behind might be asked about you if you apply to a more serious guild, in fact I've declined people just on other officers word about them (other officers that I know from other guilds ofc).

    Remember that the more serious guild you apply to the more like a job application it becomes, some guilds put in over a full time work schedule in the game to make sure the guild is "healthy". Why would they take you in if you spent 5 minutes explaining why they should take you to their raids?

    fyi my last application (1.5years ago since I updated it) was over 4.5k words long, some of it was ofc keybinds and links to different logs and so on but it had my raiding history and other relevant (and non relevant) information. If nothing else that showed that I actually cared more than 2 shits about me getting into the guild, you should do the same if you're actually wanting to get into a good guild.
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  16. #296
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    fyi my last application (1.5years ago since I updated it) was over 4.5k words long, some of it was ofc keybinds and links to different logs and so on but it had my raiding history and other relevant (and non relevant) information. If nothing else that showed that I actually cared more than 2 shits about me getting into the guild, you should do the same if you're actually wanting to get into a good guild.
    See mine was way different. I got into my guild 2+ years ago now by just chating in whispers and then chatting in vent for 10mins. They took me on as trial, ranked 20ish in the world for dps on a few fights that night. Next day i was a full ranked raider . Now i am just casual rank since i pretty much quit wow (for now).

    I think it all depends on what kind of person runs the guild.
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  17. #297
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Pretty much this. As I've already said in a previous post, some guilds (mine included) do in fact give a chance to inexperienced players, IF their application is really good. When we did trial the 2 inexperienced players, we were only 7/13 Heroic. Now, I don't know tbh. It would have to be a damn good applicant with experience from previous Tiers, some really good logs (obviously based on his/her gear). Cause at this point, we might as well sell a spot - which we don't - cause we don't wanna boost random ppl to stuff they did not earn.

    Giving a trial to someone who's got nothing but LFR experience, when you're a 13/13 Heroic guild is just really unlikely to happen tbh. As someone else said, it's like looking for that one diamond among a shit ton of baddies.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I wouldn't recruit someone just to test him/her in our alt runs, where we're just derping around. There's no challenge in Normals now and unless the trial only has LFR gear and no VP or crafted, he/she will be way overgeared for that as well. I'd want to test the trial in the main raid, to see how they hold up. How fast will they learn and adapt? Will they fail on simple mechanics? Can they do a decent output, while dealing with mechanics? Will they communicate on TS? Will they come prepared or just show up and expect to be carried?
    Like I initially said I was genuinely curious why, so thanks for clearing that up. It makes sense, but it would seem like a 13/13H guild would be looking outside the normal pool of raiders when the content is done in preparation for the next tier of content, since there isn't that pressure to clear it, while a 10/13H guild or whatever wouldn't take that chance since their focus isn't on derping around after clearing, it's getting those final heroic bosses down before the next tier hits.
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  18. #298
    Best thing to do here, is to watch things like Tankspots videos on youtube. Explain you;ve done LFR, and watched the videos of the normal fights so you know them. Or, you might just need a better server.
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  19. #299
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Like I initially said I was genuinely curious why, so thanks for clearing that up. It makes sense, but it would seem like a 13/13H guild would be looking outside the normal pool of raiders when the content is done in preparation for the next tier of content, since there isn't that pressure to clear it, while a 10/13H guild or whatever wouldn't take that chance since their focus isn't on derping around after clearing, it's getting those final heroic bosses down before the next tier hits.
    I can see the logic behind what you're saying. But you have to keep in mind, that guilds who're 13/13 Heroic have an easier time recruiting than those who're less progressed. So even though we could boost someone with less experience and less gear, we don't have to. I mean, we'll get applications from players with much more experience and gear, if we went on a recruitment spree.

    About your example of a 10/13 Heroic guild, I think that's true - to some extend. Cause unless you're among the very best in the world, recruiting can be hard and the competition to get the fewer qualified people out there is fierce. I think it will depend a lot on a guilds situation though.

    1. If the 10/13 Heroic guild don't think they'll kill the last 3 bosses and are okay with that, then they might just give someone inexperienced a chance anyway.

    2. Is a guild in dire need of bodies and know they can carry a person, until said person is geared? Then they might do it.

    3. A guild like mine have recruitment open for 2 classes but we aren't in dire need of people right now. So we're being more picky about applicants that the guild in example 1 and 2 would be.

  20. #300
    Stood in the Fire Cyphran's Avatar
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    I joined a ToT PuG on the weekend, I told the RL I had no post Megara experience. Was accepted anyway... killed Lei Shen last night. If you're good, you'll get in anyway.

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