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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Oh, sorry, I thought doing nothing but PvP for the last 3 years would equate to some kind of knowledge about other classes. My bad.

    All sarcasm aside, the only reason I don't have a high rating is because I have never pushed my rating. If you had bothered to read my last post you would have seen that.

    I would also like to point out that you said everyone below 2200 doesn't really know shit. So you're saying that 95% of WoW are braindead and don't have the slightest idea about the other classes, even if they have been playing much longer than those 2200 players? Dat logic.
    lol..

    so, typically, less experience = less knowledge... obviously it's not that black and white..

    most players who HAVE pushed/played at 2200+ have gained more experience and knowledge about pvp, which includes learning more in depth about balance issues. that doesn't give them instant magical knowledge..


    most players who HAVE NOT pushed/played at 2200+ have not experienced others utilizing their classes to such high skilled levels.. therefor, they do not possess the understanding of class balance well enough to be a reputable source..

    the reason people dont care or want to hear your opinions isn't personal.. they just dont want advice from someone who has yet to reach their level.


    put it this way:

    If you were a heroic raider, how would you feel if someone who's only done LFR(for any period of time) were trying to give you their opinions and advice...

    the whole 'i haven't tried...' statement is completely irrelevant as well. If you haven't tried, why would anyone assume you possess any understanding of someone who has tried, or think that your opinions of the matter are anything other than ignorance?

  2. #42
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutupBurt View Post
    lol..

    so, typically, less experience = less knowledge... obviously it's not that black and white..

    most players who HAVE pushed/played at 2200+ have gained more experience and knowledge about pvp, which includes learning more in depth about balance issues. that doesn't give them instant magical knowledge..


    most players who HAVE NOT pushed/played at 2200+ have not experienced others utilizing their classes to such high skilled levels.. therefor, they do not possess the understanding of class balance well enough to be a reputable source..

    the reason people dont care or want to hear your opinions isn't personal.. they just dont want advice from someone who has yet to reach their level.


    put it this way:

    If you were a heroic raider, how would you feel if someone who's only done LFR(for any period of time) were trying to give you their opinions and advice...

    the whole 'i haven't tried...' statement is completely irrelevant as well. If you haven't tried, why would anyone assume you possess any understanding of someone who has tried, or think that your opinions of the matter are anything other than ignorance?
    I completely agree. I am still curious about some of the players who ran this guy down view each class. It is OK to have a perspective from an average player as it shows the picture from different skill caps (at the 1500 bracket, obviously no one is arguing that enhance burst is INSANE! Well, how does this compare to a 2200+ DK's POV?) That is called interactive feedback and discussion and not flaming.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by sjsctt View Post
    I completely agree. I am still curious about some of the players who ran this guy down view each class. It is OK to have a perspective from an average player as it shows the picture from different skill caps (at the 1500 bracket, obviously no one is arguing that enhance burst is INSANE! Well, how does this compare to a 2200+ DK's POV?) That is called interactive feedback and discussion and not flaming.
    Im all about interactive feedback, unfortunately it's hard to keep it mature in the online world, especially a video game community of millions.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Oh, sorry, I thought doing nothing but PvP for the last 3 years would equate to some kind of knowledge about other classes. My bad.

    All sarcasm aside, the only reason I don't have a high rating is because I have never pushed my rating. If you had bothered to read my last post you would have seen that.

    I would also like to point out that you said everyone below 2200 doesn't really know shit. So you're saying that 95% of WoW are braindead and don't have the slightest idea about the other classes, even if they have been playing much longer than those 2200 players? Dat logic.
    3 years of playing nothing but PVP as a Death Knight. 3 years ago was WLK. If you've been playing since WLK as a DK and never been high rated, you've had atleast 1 season in WLK where they were pretty good (s8), 2 in Cata where they were OP as fuck (DK Feral Hpal was godly in s9 and 10), and so far 2 seasons in MOP where DKs have been fairly strong too. That's 5 seasons of OP over the course of 6 seasons. During the last 3 years, the only season where DKs have been bad for the entirety of the season has been S11. You've had 3 years, and you didn't even amount to 1800 once? Death knights are easy enough to play that you should've easily accomplished 2k in every season save for 11 if you knew what you were doing. Even remotely.

    Take it from someone who's been 2k+ as a DK in every season since s6.


    Point being, playing for a long time doesn't mean a lot if you lack the insight in the game to actually get anything done.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Propainn View Post
    No, it's in line if not slightly better than most def CDs. For instance I'd gladly trade you my extra 10% DR on wall for your stun immunity if you think it's so bad.
    In what world is IBF a good def cd? By wall, do you mean shield wall? You know, the 40% dr that in 5.4 will have no shield requirement? Cause warriors dont also have die by the sword and rallying cry obviously, nor do they have a passive 25% DR in d stance. 90% of the time IBF is used as a stun break and not a D cd, they should honestly separate them. IBF and shell and BP is ALL a dk has unless he takes zone against spellcleaves.

    Compare IBF 20% dr on 3 min cd to barkskin. 1 Minute cd, 20% DR, 25% crit reduction with glyph that every druid takes always. Ferals have that AND survival instincts AND Might of Ursoc. Or Divine protection, 40% magic DR or 20% all dr on 1 min cd (soon to be 30 second cd in 5.4 if you talent it). Its really IBFs long cd that makes it suck.

    Dks have by far the worst burst protection, really can't argue that.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post

    Yeah rsham is no problem for me but saying disc is solable by a DK? Impossible. Show me a video of it then I will believe.
    How are you having problems with disc? Take away their shields and they have to cast to stay up. They have a interrupt immunity (grip/stun) and fear (lol fear @ DK). Maybe you don't understand that you can purge off almost all of a disc and he melts to your damage while not being able to cast? Perhaps you could tell me what a disc has available that makes him hard to kill?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    How are you having problems with disc? Take away their shields and they have to cast to stay up. They have a interrupt immunity (grip/stun) and fear (lol fear @ DK). Maybe you don't understand that you can purge off almost all of a disc and he melts to your damage while not being able to cast? Perhaps you could tell me what a disc has available that makes him hard to kill?

    This. Necrotic strike makes interrupts easy, priests have no strong instant heals, icy touch dispell the shields, grip/stun the interrupt immunity, fear is shit vs. DKs.

    Honestly, just blowing your kill chain immediately on the priest puts his team in a "go super defensive or lose the match" situation. I've played with enough discs as every single class that is viable with a disc and no matter how hard a counter my class is to DKs, they absolutely melt the priest. Every time.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furcifer View Post
    What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

    Infracted
    http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...jpg?1318992465

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by thisnamesucks View Post
    In what world is IBF a good def cd? By wall, do you mean shield wall? You know, the 40% dr that in 5.4 will have no shield requirement? Cause warriors dont also have die by the sword and rallying cry obviously, nor do they have a passive 25% DR in d stance. 90% of the time IBF is used as a stun break and not a D cd, they should honestly separate them. IBF and shell and BP is ALL a dk has unless he takes zone against spellcleaves.

    Compare IBF 20% dr on 3 min cd to barkskin. 1 Minute cd, 20% DR, 25% crit reduction with glyph that every druid takes always. Ferals have that AND survival instincts AND Might of Ursoc. Or Divine protection, 40% magic DR or 20% all dr on 1 min cd (soon to be 30 second cd in 5.4 if you talent it). Its really IBFs long cd that makes it suck.

    Dks have by far the worst burst protection, really can't argue that.
    I would take a 20% decrease for stun immunity in a heartbeat. Your d stance argument is negated unless you just don't use blood presence, in which case, that explains why you feel so weak. Do you really think that 25% stam and 55% armor don't make up for 15% DR? And I guess shell being magic DR doesn't fill your niche enough as the anti caster melee (Along with your choice of a 2nd tier talent), so you want another def CD? Different classes work differently, accept it and just move on. All melee are suffering on the ladders right now relatively, with poor rep for every single one of us (all under 6.5%). It's just a caster dominated meta atm, but it's not something to whine about, the balance will shift again in time.
    Last edited by Propainn; 2013-07-05 at 09:31 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Propainn View Post
    I would take a 20% decrease for stun immunity in a heartbeat. Your d stance argument is negated unless you just don't use blood presence, in which case, that explains why you feel so weak. Do you really think that 25% stam and 55% armor don't make up for 15% DR? And I guess shell being magic DR doesn't fill your niche enough as the anti caster melee (Along with your choice of a 2nd tier talent), so you want another def CD? Different classes work differently, accept it and just move on. All melee are suffering on the ladders right now relatively, with poor rep for every single one of us (all under 6.5%). It's just a caster dominated meta atm, but it's not something to whine about, the balance will shift again in time.
    My warrior would take the 20% decrease for the stun immunity in a heartbeat too, thats of course because he has 2 other solid D cds and great defensive mobility to survive. Dks dont; if casters catch you in a burst window and your farther than 10 yrds of an LoS you are pretty much dead. And no, as strong as blood presence is (i wont deny its great), the additional 15% DR from D stance is much better; dks are just far less punished for sitting in blood pres.

    Shell used to be great, now its good but not as amazing as you might think with all the burst flying around. ~200k absorb is nothing against a mages frozen orb or an ele's ascendance. The problem is dks dont have the mobility to get away from casters when they are in trouble.

    You also are pretty wrong about melee being weak; hunters (which I include in melee personally), rets, and ferals are dominating ladders. Dks, enh, and rogues are doing fairly well too. You can't look at classes like sham's and priests overall because they have healing specs and melee dont.

    This. Necrotic strike makes interrupts easy, priests have no strong instant heals, icy touch dispell the shields, grip/stun the interrupt immunity, fear is shit vs. DKs.

    Honestly, just blowing your kill chain immediately on the priest puts his team in a "go super defensive or lose the match" situation. I've played with enough discs as every single class that is viable with a disc and no matter how hard a counter my class is to DKs, they absolutely melt the priest. Every time.
    I think people stick to old assumptions far too much. My disc has no problem with UH dks anymore, frost is a bit more challenging if im not running inner fire glyphed. No strong instant heals, seriously? My PoM has gone off for 150k in an arena that throws a 190k undispellable shield on it, and thats a 10 sec cd ability. If theres a teammate nearby and your spreading diseases my pom is going to come back and heal me for 50k bare minimum 2 more times. Shields are dispellable by icy touch, but priests also have like 2 million cover buffs and icy touch isnt exactly spammable.

    Void tendrils -> spectral guise -> Los every 30 seconds along with glyphed shackle for your garg and lichborne and priests can shut down dks without much effort.

    Its a skill thing; my UH dk has crushed priests in 5 seconds before in lower bracket 2s. Then you play a disc who is actually good; you will hardly even touch him.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Let me start off by saying this is coming from the point of veiw of a Death Knight. We have laughable defensives and are easily bursted down.

    Warriors- Pretty much in the same boat as us DKs, great burst, shitty defense. I would say warrior's defense is slightly better than death knights because of the ability to switch to a shield and defensive stance whenever you get in a tough spot, then you let second wind keep you up until you are ready to burst.

    Elemental/Enhance shaman- Borderline FOTM, INSANE burst and decent off healing is pretty hard to counter. Hex is a really good CC, as it has a much higher damage threshold than poly. Other than that I don't know much, but what I do know, is if you see one of these boogers pop their CDs, prepare your anus! (or CC them)

    Resto shaman- Desperately need a buff of some kind, the only way to succeed as a healer in pvp , is to have all your heals be instant-cast. Having all those castbars is like candy to a DK, you bet your sweet ass you will never get a cast off!

    - - - Updated - - -

    PS3 will only let me type so much, sorry!

    Hunters- DKs counter hunters really well, they get constantly slowed by chillblains which leaves them with nowhere to run. I see people complaining about hunters a ton, but im just not seeing why...

    Ret Paladin- Borderline FOTM, burst unlike any class in the game, crazy off heals (I have seen back to back 100k flash of light from a ret in contenders) and on top of all that, they can kite like no other class has kited before. (honorable mention- immunity bubble.)

    Mages- Not that overpowered really, as long as you don't sit in a deep freeze and let them burst you down. It's pretty easy to guess when they are about to nova so I just ams that. Survivability is alright, I would like to see a slightly longer hypothermia debuff, but that may just be me...
    The back to back 100k Flash heals is just wrong man. Spreading mis-information and bitching about the strength of things when it isn't even that way doesn't do anything except feed angry hordes of people into thinking Flash of Light is actually that strong. Standing in Org, with Kings, no battle fatigue or MS, I get 80k non crits in full Tyr. So, its more like 40k without MS and without crit, and with MS a Tyrannical Ret Paladin is healing for ~40k on himself with a ramp up time or i has a cast time.

    Also, unless the Ret has Burden of Guilt(95% of the time Fist is 100x better), there are many other classes that can kite more.
    Mages just need to do about 80% of the damage they currently do while the target is deeped and have their consistent dps increased.

  12. #52
    I am Murloc! Balduvian's Avatar
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    Pretty much all of the things you've mentioned are in fact, the exact opposite. Not even going to start.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    I saved the worst for last.

    Windwalker Monk- They have it all. Burst, heals, mobility, utility... They are the perfect class/spec for every situation. Getting bursted? Touch of karma and burst back. Low on health? Paralyze, roll away, spam healing sphere and expel harm. I have nothing in my offensive arsenal to counter them.

    Mistweaver Monk- You thought windwalker was bad? Well, it is... but so is MW. They have the mobility to escape any melee, the healing to survive any burst, and just when you think they are dead, they pop a huge bubble, and heal right back up.
    This makes me think you are talking about duels which are obviously not balanced. But ill humor you. WW monks burst can succumb heavily to bad rng. Their abilites are not based on weapon damage, an example: Risiking sun kick does 70,000-100,000 damage (not true numbers just for the sake of the discussion). With 10 stacks of tiger's eye brew which most WW's have mastery at around 40% they can actualy do less damage than if they did not pop tiger's eye brew. Not saying their burst is at all bad, you just seem to be misinformed about monks based on your post.

    Now a WW monks healing comes from spamming healing spheres at the cost of 40 evergy. Which heal for about 25k with MS and BF. And their Chi wave talent which now breaks paralysis and other CC's due to the horrible AI. Which heals for about 9-10k non crit. Not going to list Expel harm in here due to the fact that its mainly used as a chi generator.

    The reason we have such high mobility is because we don't have all the survivability that other classes do, for instance Dks can sit in blood presence, warriors can sit in D-stance, Rogues can stealth, Feral druids can sit in bear from (though its not as potent anymore).

    I'm not quite sure what "utility" you are talking about since you also listed CC's in the list. Tiger's lust? A 1 time freedom every 30 seconds?

    WW's have arguably the worst CC's atm. Paralysis a 15second cd 4 second CC 6 seconds from behind. Sounds good on paper but 90% of the time your getting the 4sec. Oh and it breaks on any damage and chi wave tends to be drawn to it. We have stuns but so do most other classes. RoP is basicaly ignoreable now. And a Disarm that DR's with RoP.

    Touch of karma, i wasn't aware people still complained about it. The ability that used to stop melee cleaves from training you...jk since 5.1 classes have been bursting through it completely ignoring the DoT. If a monk uses ToK for burst he is stupid and it should be an easy win.

    Don't mistake this for "QQ WWs underpowered buff me" i'm content with it currently.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Oh, sorry, I thought doing nothing but PvP for the last 3 years would equate to some kind of knowledge about other classes.
    Judging by your posts you obviously thought wrong.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by thisnamesucks View Post
    My warrior would take the 20% decrease for the stun immunity in a heartbeat too, thats of course because he has 2 other solid D cds and great defensive mobility to survive. Dks dont; if casters catch you in a burst window and your farther than 10 yrds of an LoS you are pretty much dead. And no, as strong as blood presence is (i wont deny its great), the additional 15% DR from D stance is much better; dks are just far less punished for sitting in blood pres.

    Shell used to be great, now its good but not as amazing as you might think with all the burst flying around. ~200k absorb is nothing against a mages frozen orb or an ele's ascendance. The problem is dks dont have the mobility to get away from casters when they are in trouble.

    You also are pretty wrong about melee being weak; hunters (which I include in melee personally), rets, and ferals are dominating ladders. Dks, enh, and rogues are doing fairly well too. You can't look at classes like sham's and priests overall because they have healing specs and melee dont.



    I think people stick to old assumptions far too much. My disc has no problem with UH dks anymore, frost is a bit more challenging if im not running inner fire glyphed. No strong instant heals, seriously? My PoM has gone off for 150k in an arena that throws a 190k undispellable shield on it, and thats a 10 sec cd ability. If theres a teammate nearby and your spreading diseases my pom is going to come back and heal me for 50k bare minimum 2 more times. Shields are dispellable by icy touch, but priests also have like 2 million cover buffs and icy touch isnt exactly spammable.

    Void tendrils -> spectral guise -> Los every 30 seconds along with glyphed shackle for your garg and lichborne and priests can shut down dks without much effort.

    Its a skill thing; my UH dk has crushed priests in 5 seconds before in lower bracket 2s. Then you play a disc who is actually good; you will hardly even touch him.
    If you're only looking at popularity rets and ferals are doing ok, but at any decent rating (2k+) they have horrible rep. Hunters aren't melee, they have 0 mechanics that allow them to be effective in that role (raptor strike hasn't even existed in years) so saying that they are is just you trying to bolster your opinion because hunters are strong atm, and I am not denying that.

    Taking into consideration the Top 300 of every BG (over 6,000 teams and 18,000 players):

    Paladins as a CLASS have ~9% rep, with Holy being preferred at the higher ratings (2300+)
    DKs have the HIGHEST rep of any pure melee class
    Rogues are the lowest represented pure melee at ~4-5%
    Warriors are chillin with a 3-5% rep. Does that mean we're weak? Perhaps slightly, but we're just not favored in the current state of the meta-game.
    Druids have 3 viable specs atm and only have 11% rep. I doubt feral is more than the slight majority at best seeing as Resto is still more than viable, and the best healer for God Comp.
    Shaman I can't make a solid enough estimate, but it's widely know that Ele and Enh are both FoTM with Resto still being viable, so 15% rep isn't surprising and I doubt it's mostly Enh.

    I say it again, it is a caster dominated meta, live with it.

  16. #56
    Arguing with bg for balance isnt very smart, that is about as balanced as world pvp.

  17. #57
    Mechagnome Mr. Casual's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crruor View Post
    No, im not at all saying that 95%of wow player are braindead, im saying 99% of wow players are retarded and shouldnt even be allowed to vote irl. Main problem with balance is wow catering to bad players instead of saying fuck 'em and just targeting the top 1% of players with balancing 8pve and pvp wise).

    And if you played for over 3 years and only did pvp and still managed to not get any high rating that sadly just shows that youd definetly belong to the 99%, and that you really suck.

    Also in general what retarded manner is it to think playing time has anything to do with class balance in pvp, that gets changed every few months. 'Cause you knew that shaman was op 3 years ago has so much to do with current balance, are you simple?
    lmao a game that caters to the 1%? sounds like a good idea

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Propainn View Post
    Paladins as a CLASS have ~9% rep, with Holy being preferred at the higher ratings (2300+)
    DKs have the HIGHEST rep of any pure melee class
    Rogues are the lowest represented pure melee at ~4-5%
    Warriors are chillin with a 3-5% rep. Does that mean we're weak? Perhaps slightly, but we're just not favored in the current state of the meta-game.
    Druids have 3 viable specs atm and only have 11% rep. I doubt feral is more than the slight majority at best seeing as Resto is still more than viable, and the best healer for God Comp.
    Shaman I can't make a solid enough estimate, but it's widely know that Ele and Enh are both FoTM with Resto still being viable, so 15% rep isn't surprising and I doubt it's mostly Enh.

    I say it again, it is a caster dominated meta, live with it.
    Ive been using this: http://www.arenamate.net/
    as it seems to have a pretty accurate representation and is constantly changing to match what people are saying which makes sense.

    - There are nearly no holy paladins ANYWHERE over 2200. Its nearly all ret.
    - I include hunters in melee because they play like a 40 yrd range melee more than a caster and they don't cast. Are we just sitting them out for any melee vs. caster discussion?
    - Warriors are by far the lowest melee (outside monks which is to be expected since its still pretty new), rogues are doing ok in comparison.
    - Priests are really dominant, can't really argue that, but I wonder how many of those spriests are actually disc on rating sites. Either way, looking at arenamate the dps specs go: Hunter (melee imo) > spriest > Mage = ele = ret = feral > dk. IMO its pretty balanced.
    - I won't lie, the pure dps melee are pretty weak right now, melee hybrids and caster hybrids are both dominating. Its world of hybrid and hunter craft right now.
    - Why is everyone so obsessed with the word meta to describe pvp?

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Hpals- These guys are in an ok spot atm, nothing crazy but nothing too underpowered... not much else to say...

    Warlocks- Tough to say really, DKs are a counter to warlocks, so killing them comes easier to me than most other classes. Gateway and portal can be annoying at times, but it's not overpowered or anything. their burst can only get out of hand if you let it.

    Rogues- Just a tad underpowered imo, but it really depends on how good the rogue is, I have had rogues who just could not kill me, yet others who could down me in about 7 seconds. Again, depends on the player
    I think there's a lot of RNG involved with that too. Anytime I've beaten a decent UH Death Knight it has relied on killing him in the first 10 seconds of the duel, otherwise I can't outdamage his healing. I've dueled the same guy like 10 times, and beaten him twice and it involved me getting an amazing string of crits.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    How are you having problems with disc? Take away their shields and they have to cast to stay up. They have a interrupt immunity (grip/stun) and fear (lol fear @ DK). Maybe you don't understand that you can purge off almost all of a disc and he melts to your damage while not being able to cast? Perhaps you could tell me what a disc has available that makes him hard to kill?
    thats an easy one: his teammate.

    Or are we wildly discussing team pvp with duels and even use rbg ratings?

    Does this discussion makes any sense?!

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