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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    pretty weak.. the only way you can do that safely is if you play with a priest [dispersion]. i'm sure you noticed that's the case in all those players you linked. outside of that it's pretty much a mandatory glyph.
    .. it was in response to a post claiming it was a compulsory glyph. It's not compulsory, there are situations where you don't need it based on your comp, as you've just agreed with. Giving it to all ferals when half of them don't need it (those playing with a disc/hpala instead of a rsham/MW) is absolute overkill. I don't know if PVE ferals take glyph of cat form, but they'd suddenly benefit from +20% healing if they didn't, which would affect raid balance. Why shouldn't there be glyphs that are compulsory for PVP?

    Why not give all DKs baseline AMS glyph or all rogues baseline feint glyph? They're pretty essential for PVP which, by the logic used in this thread, is apparently enough to warrant making them baseline.
    Last edited by Dcruize; 2013-07-12 at 01:43 PM.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalysun View Post
    The only "horrors" locks have are Blood Fear (works like nature's grasp, 4s horror) and Death Coil (3s duration), neither of which need a cast time for that short of a CC.
    You're probably right, I was already doubting anyway. One thing is for sure though, the current spell is retarded and seriously OP. DR sharing with Fear wouldn't be an option either I guess, so an increased CD would be the only viable way to tune it down then. Some nerf is needed though.

    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    3. I suspect blizz wants to shy away from passive 'tankiness' of feral since they split feral and guardian anyway for similar and balance reasons. Besides, all phys dmg classes have armor ignore mechanics anyway (including us), so I don't see the usefulness or this happening at all. I'm convinced that a Enrage being brought back to Feral's Bear form on a 3min CD as a fear break is the way to go. Or something else that provides some active dmg mitigation or utility.
    I like the idea of being able to break fear again, and with current utility nerfs it wouldn't be too much asked. Especially since most classes have a way to do this as well. However, I don't see a 3 min CD fear breaker help much either. Something like 1.5 minute would seem more reasonable to me.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    I like the idea of being able to break fear again, and with current utility nerfs it wouldn't be too much asked. Especially since most classes have a way to do this as well. However, I don't see a 3 min CD fear breaker help much either. Something like 1.5 minute would seem more reasonable to me.
    But as I said earlier, you're already virtually IMMUNE to two forms of CC (can break without using a SINGLE cooldown) and less vulnerable to stuns than most. Why do you think ferals should have a way of breaking fear as well?
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    But as I said earlier, you're already virtually IMMUNE to two forms of CC (can break without using a SINGLE cooldown) and less vulnerable to stuns than most. Why do you think ferals should have a way of breaking fear as well?
    The physical damage Ferals do when connecting to a target is also half of that of some other melees. Outside of Berserk, Feral damage is pretty pathetic when compared to other classes that have multiple fear breaks and ways to stop ranged CC (Spell Reflect, Cloak, AMS, Bubble, Grip, Charge, SHS, Vanish, etc).

    I'm not saying that Ferals deserve or even need a fear break, but comparing classes like that is ridiculous. It's been said a thousand times that comparing classes utility just doesn't work (even like I just did.. using Vanish to stop a polymorph is a waste of a CD 99.9% of the time, but it could land a kill that other 0.1%).
    Last edited by Snuggli; 2013-07-12 at 02:52 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    The physical damage Ferals do when connecting to a target is also half of that of some other melees. Outside of Berserk, Feral damage is pretty pathetic when compared to other classes that have multiple fear breaks and ways to stop ranged CC (Spell Reflect, Cloak, AMS, Bubble, Grip, Charge, SHS, Vanish, etc).

    I'm not saying that Ferals deserve or even need a fear break, but comparing classes like that is ridiculous. It's been said a thousand times that comparing classes utility just doesn't work (even like I just did.. using Vanish to stop a polymorph is a waste of a CD 99.9% of the time, but it could land a kill that other 0.1%).
    If you don't compare classes you cannot have any debate about buffs/nerfs. It's this whole attitude of 'oh something was taken off me, therefore I need to be compensated' mindset that I'm complaining about. Ferals are ridiculously strong at the moment and the PTR changes balance them nicely - compensating the nerfs by making cyclone castable in catform, giving baseline +20% healing or gaining a fear break would be acceptable only if feral was currently a subpar spec.

    It's all irrelevant at the moment anyway. Currently (on the PTR) PVP is won by the team with the best PVE trinkets.
    Last edited by Dcruize; 2013-07-12 at 03:20 PM.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    If you don't compare classes you cannot have any debate about buffs/nerfs. It's this whole attitude of 'oh something was taken off me, therefore I need to be compensated' mindset that I'm complaining about. Ferals are ridiculously strong at the moment and the PTR changes balance them nicely - compensating the nerfs by making cyclone castable in catform, giving baseline +20% healing or gaining a fear break would be acceptable only if feral was currently a subpar spec.
    Completely removing treant stun, nature's swiftness and PS clones is a little overkill for a class that is only slightly over represented, surely? They have 1 tier 1 comp, and a couple tier 2 and 3 comps. Besides, just looking at representation, apparently Warriors are better than Ferals right now.

    Ferals will need to be compensated in 5.4, because as it currently stands they will have no viable comps once cyclone and bash have been removed. It will be a joke spec. Will be trained more than Enhance but with half the burst and utility.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    But as I said earlier, you're already virtually IMMUNE to two forms of CC (can break without using a SINGLE cooldown) and less vulnerable to stuns than most. Why do you think ferals should have a way of breaking fear as well?
    Less vulnerable to stuns is a fairytale. With Barkskin? Probably yea. Without it? Stun a Feral in Cat Form and it actually goes down easier than most classes/specs.

    Why I think it's not too much asked? Because we're heavily getting nerfed in several ways regarding utility atm.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    Completely removing treant stun, nature's swiftness and PS clones is a little overkill for a class that is only slightly over represented, surely? They have 1 tier 1 comp, and a couple tier 2 and 3 comps. Besides, just looking at representation, apparently Warriors are better than Ferals right now.

    Ferals will need to be compensated in 5.4, because as it currently stands they will have no viable comps once cyclone and bash have been removed. It will be a joke spec. Will be trained more than Enhance but with half the burst and utility.
    The representation has nothing to do with the spec being weak, it's OP as hell at the moment but passing under the radar because hunters are so strong. The damage it produces HAS to be a bit less than other classes because it has so much more CC and mobility. You can literally play it in blues at 2k mmr as it stands, I'm not aware of any other class that can say the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Less vulnerable to stuns is a fairytale. With Barkskin? Probably yea.
    Of course I meant with barkskin, you can pop it whilst you're stunned. I'm not implying ferals have some magical passive anti-stun ability, just that they should probably use the tools they have to mitigate damage whilst they're being switched to in a stun.
    Last edited by Dcruize; 2013-07-12 at 04:59 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    Of course I meant with barkskin, I'm not implying ferals have some magical passive anti-stun ability.
    Figured. Doesn't change the point though. Overall, Ferals are actually more susceptible to stuns than other classes due to the fact that when Barkskin is down, they are super squishy in Cat Form. Other melee classes are simply less squishy during stuns than druids that are in Cat Form, and casters always also have a passive damage reduction. Not to mention several classes/specs also have Barkskin-like abilities that can be used while stunned.

  10. #50
    all i see is alot of qq about a gcd and a bunch of druids sad they can no longer cyclone without thinking. this isn't a nerf, and it doesn't balance ferals they will still be the strongest melee.
    do what you feel.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacepunch View Post
    all i see is alot of qq about a gcd and a bunch of druids sad they can no longer cyclone without thinking. this isn't a nerf, and it doesn't balance ferals they will still be the strongest melee.
    The good thing here is that Ferals might be able to get more Cyclones off, depending on the situation.

    Bad things are for example the range, from which people will easily be able to run (20 yards). This isn't a problem as Resto/Boomkin because you can position yourself near the to-be-cycloned targets before you actually do it while not losing any damage. As Feral, that isn't an option.

    Secondly, getting kicked/silenced on a hardcasted clone as Feral means losing 2-3 globals AND no Cyclone, since no sane Feral will stay in caster form untill the kick/silence is over to get another chance. Getting kicked/silenced as Resto/Boomkin on the other hand, simply means you've lost a single global and a single spellschool for 3-4 seconds. Not to mention Resto/Boomkin can afford to fake-cast a lot more than Ferals would, or they would lose even more damage and uptime.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    Because it frees up a glyph spot that can be used to take strong glyphs like Skull Bash or Fae Fire. Other classes have to glyph for defence (AMS for DKs, feint/cloak for rogues, MS for warriors) - making cat form baseline gives ferals a free glyph spot. Just because something was baseline once, doesn't mean it deserves to be made baseline again. A lot has changed since it was baseline and ferals definitely have no cause to complain about having to do what other classes already have to do.
    Because I can't have a free glyph slot you can't have one either. This is the weakest and most childish argument. If you want to argue for making certain glyphs for your Rogue or DK baseline, by all means do. You don't see us druids complaining about those. Blizzard has indicated that they don't want certain glyphs to feel mandatory and it feels like this one is. I know you're going to argue until you're blue in the face and disagree with me, so let's leave it at that. One rogue thinks it's not needed, while most of the druid community feels that it's needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    I listed four, I got bored browsing armories at that point. What are the reasons you don't think ferals will get extra defenses? Surely it's the way they have a ton of CC, crazy mobility and strong defenses already?
    Actually it's because of PVE implications, which seems to be their priority. But yes, feral does have a lot of defensive utility, excellent mobility and good CC. But no need to exaggerate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    But why? Why do they deserve a fear break when they're already immune to polymorphs and see roots as a laughable triviality? What other class can negate two branches of CC without using a single cooldown? If you take away their ability to be feared the only way of shutting down a feral would be to stun it, but they are less vulnerable to stuns compared to other classes thanks to being able to pop barkskin whilst stunned. You're effectively saying you want the class to be hugely immune to CC whilst having the best mobility in the game AND having better stuns than a rogue, a medium-range interrupt, instant roots, an aoe incapacitate and the ability to drop form and spam cyclones if things get a bit scary and all their other CC is on cooldown.
    A fear break, not fear immunity. They're not any less vulnerable to stuns than other classes. What I proposed wouldn't allow the druid to keep up offensive pressure either way. Druids got a lot of CC in MoP, but so did other classes. As far as being immune to poly, I guess it's an archaic design that was left in, but yeah i guess more homogenization is what we all want, right? If poly-immune mechanics were to change they would need to do a major class overhaul. Not happening until next expansion.

    Also, not root immune. Can shift out. It's a different thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    The physical damage Ferals do when connecting to a target is also half of that of some other melees. Outside of Berserk, Feral damage is pretty pathetic when compared to other classes that have multiple fear breaks and ways to stop ranged CC (Spell Reflect, Cloak, AMS, Bubble, Grip, Charge, SHS, Vanish, etc).

    I'm not saying that Ferals deserve or even need a fear break, but comparing classes like that is ridiculous. It's been said a thousand times that comparing classes utility just doesn't work (even like I just did.. using Vanish to stop a polymorph is a waste of a CD 99.9% of the time, but it could land a kill that other 0.1%).
    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    The good thing here is that Ferals might be able to get more Cyclones off, depending on the situation.

    Bad things are for example the range, from which people will easily be able to run (20 yards). This isn't a problem as Resto/Boomkin because you can position yourself near the to-be-cycloned targets before you actually do it while not losing any damage. As Feral, that isn't an option.

    Secondly, getting kicked/silenced on a hardcasted clone as Feral means losing 2-3 globals AND no Cyclone, since no sane Feral will stay in caster form untill the kick/silence is over to get another chance. Getting kicked/silenced as Resto/Boomkin on the other hand, simply means you've lost a single global and a single spellschool for 3-4 seconds. Not to mention Resto/Boomkin can afford to fake-cast a lot more than Ferals would, or they would lose even more damage and uptime.

    Very much this. I know you rogues have a hard on for feral (not sure why since you've dominated since the beginning of wow except for 2 seasons), but you don't understand until you actually play the class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacepunch View Post
    all i see is alot of qq about a gcd and a bunch of druids sad they can no longer cyclone without thinking. this isn't a nerf, and it doesn't balance ferals they will still be the strongest melee.
    All I see is someone happy that attention is being taken away from being able to RNG global people thanks to Echo + Mastery mechanics.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    Because I can't have a free glyph slot you can't have one either. This is the weakest and most childish argument. If you want to argue for making certain glyphs for your Rogue or DK baseline, by all means do. You don't see us druids complaining about those. Blizzard has indicated that they don't want certain glyphs to feel mandatory and it feels like this one is. I know you're going to argue until you're blue in the face and disagree with me, so let's leave it at that. One rogue thinks it's not needed, while most of the druid community feels that it's needed.
    But what's your argument? "I think this glyph is compulsory so therefore it should be baseline". I gave you examples from other classes as indications of how WoW doesn't work this way.
    Also, not root immune. Can shift out. It's a different thing.
    My quote was "immune to polymorphs and see roots as a laughable triviality". Ferals can break roots without using a CD, it's a triviality. Every other class has to either sit in the root fully or use a moderately long cooldown to escape.

    Very much this. I know you rogues have a hard on for feral (not sure why since you've dominated since the beginning of wow except for 2 seasons), but you don't understand until you actually play the class.
    I'm playing the class, the level of control is a joke.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    But what's your argument? "I think this glyph is compulsory so therefore it should be baseline". I gave you examples from other classes as indications of how WoW doesn't work this way.
    Without the glyph Feral heals for quite low numbers, with NS being removed and NS + HT big heals going as one of the worst offenders of self-healing people whine and moan about having Glyph of Cat Form wouldn't be game breaking for non-ferals.

    Also
    Blizzard has indicated that they don't want certain glyphs to feel mandatory and it feels like this one is.
    One rogue thinks it's not needed, while most of the druid community feels that it's needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    My quote was "immune to polymorphs and see roots as a laughable triviality". Ferals can break roots without using a CD, it's a triviality. Every other class has to either sit in the root fully or use a moderately long cooldown to escape.
    This is a Feral class design. I suggest you take it up with Blizzard on the official forums since this seems to be causing you so much grief. Feral needs a fear break because they have none.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    I'm playing the class, the level of control is a joke.
    We're all sure you are.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    Completely removing treant stun, nature's swiftness and PS clones is a little overkill for a class that is only slightly over represented, surely? They have 1 tier 1 comp, and a couple tier 2 and 3 comps. Besides, just looking at representation, apparently Warriors are better than Ferals right now.

    Ferals will need to be compensated in 5.4, because as it currently stands they will have no viable comps once cyclone and bash have been removed. It will be a joke spec. Will be trained more than Enhance but with half the burst and utility.
    I laugh whenever someone talks representation in regards to hybrids. You're a SPEC that's represented above entire classes. Obviously most players of your class are going to go the easier way of finding comps by going resto. Feral's nerfs are NOT enough on the PTR. Hell, those nerfs are in fact completely wrong. Cyclone doesn't need a nerf but neither does that nerf hit feral all that hard. Treant stun was bull and everyone knows it. But nerfing neither of those hits feral where it needs to be hit and that's on ridiculous uptime on its targets. And feral sustained damage against mail and plate is still above that of rogues and warriors.

    Your defensives, mobility, control, anti-control, support, sustained and healing all crap over that of rogues and even warriors. Your burst compares. You are, in every single way, better than those two CLASSES in PvP. And you will continue being so come 5.4 with these changes.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-07-12 at 07:17 PM.
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  16. #56
    We're all sure you are.
    Sigh, http://lastrogue.com/feral.jpg. No 3s team atm, hopefully getting another one tonight if our healer actually bothers to turn up. Will let you know how that goes...
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    Sigh, http://lastrogue.com/feral.jpg. No 3s team atm, hopefully getting another one tonight if our healer actually bothers to turn up. Will let you know how that goes...
    Looks like you've got some gearing to do. Anyway, it's at least an indication that it's not your main class and one you're not as heavily invested in, as opposed to your Rogue & DK. Getting back to the original reason you started getting upset with me, myself and many other druids feel that the glyph of cat form is necessary for both pve and pvp. If we're talking people that play druids only, I'm willing to bet that your opinion is in the minority. And from people that actually play their druids as mains, I'm guessing people who share your opinion on the glyph are even smaller in number.

    The glyph is essentially maintaining the level of self-heals feral has had. I think you're upset about losing to ferals on your dk/rogue and the large self heals must be frustrating you. You're confused about what the problem is. It's not the cat form glyph. It's the NS + HT combo that gave huge numbers.

    With the loss of NS, it's even more reason to have Glyph of Cat Form baseline. Since you seem to be complaining about healing, another offender is MoU + Renewal. This is actually an even bigger 'Lay On Hands' type heal that NS+HT is, and they're both on 3min cooldowns and require you to Glyph MoU, which then makes MoU a 5min CD.

    Finally, with NS gone HOTW heals aren't as obscene and as much of a complaint. Making cat form glyph baseline would provide a relatively small QoL bonus for feral without affecting anyone else. Picking up the Skull Bash or Fae Silence (which have drawbacks as compensation for the bonus effect) glyph isn't going to suddenly cause Feral to be overpowered so stop your whining.

    I've provided more than enough valid reasons FOR having glyph of cat form baseline, but all you've done is whine because you can't have a free glyph slot, we shouldn't have one either.

    You're clearly ticked off about feral, so take a deep breath, step away from the game and actually complain about something that most people agree is an issue in pvp, like feral damage/mobility.

    In any case, do that in a separate thread because this is about Feral CC. Enough with your derailing.
    Last edited by gestapo; 2013-07-12 at 08:20 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    Assumptions
    Not once have I mentioned heals being an issue. CC is, end of. I've face rolled on the class to 2k without knowing where my keybinds are, not because of heals but because I can stand there CCing without having to know much about the class.
    Last edited by Dcruize; 2013-07-12 at 08:53 PM.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    Not once have I mentioned heals being an issue. CC is, end of. I've face rolled on the class to 2k without knowing where my keybinds are, not because of heals but because I can stand there CCing without having to know much about the class.
    I'm sure you have . Did you smash your head once or twice per cc?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    .. it was in response to a post claiming it was a compulsory glyph. It's not compulsory, there are situations where you don't need it based on your comp, as you've just agreed with. Giving it to all ferals when half of them don't need it (those playing with a disc/hpala instead of a rsham/MW) is absolute overkill. I don't know if PVE ferals take glyph of cat form, but they'd suddenly benefit from +20% healing if they didn't, which would affect raid balance. Why shouldn't there be glyphs that are compulsory for PVP?

    Why not give all DKs baseline AMS glyph or all rogues baseline feint glyph? They're pretty essential for PVP which, by the logic used in this thread, is apparently enough to warrant making them baseline.
    You may have not literally said it but you've implied it. Besides, you continue to argue the point so you have some beef with feral having this glyph baseline. As for your DK and rogue. By all means, if the glyph is being used in pve and pvp then there's reason enough to have it made baseline. PVE ferals already take the glyph as well.

    You still don't have a single valid argument against feral having this glyph baseline besides sounding like a spoiled child complaining that if my class doesn't have X, then this class shouldn't have it either. Thank goodness Blizzard will never cater to your type.

  20. #60
    I'm arguing a point because I'm bored, not because I have beef with a class. I get irritated by the whole "omg my OP spec has been nerfed, I think we should be compensated by getting X Y and Z buffs".
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