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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    1. Other instant cast CC needs to have a cast time as well, if cyclone is getting this treatment. This means no more insta hex for enhance, etc. So far I haven't seen any other instant CC on the radar, though Blue specifically said that they would be doing so. Here's to hoping.
    Agree with that. The thing is that every class has some sort of instant CC... The way I see it, they should just go back to the WOTLK model, where POM was arcane only (iirc?), shockwave was prot only, repentance was retri, ect.
    Also - abilities with long CDs should be reworked with halved duration and effects in PvP zones. There are many thins Blizzard can do, they just refuse to.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post

    TL/DR: Ferals will land more clones vs DPS but realistically wont land any on Healers - taking cyclone in completely the wrong direction in my opinion. Ferals aren't really seen on ladder much at all, and if all 3 of the major nerfs (PS/NS/Treant) go through then their population will probably be lower than that of Rogues last season.

    Jungle cleave is one of the most viable comps out right now. Pair a priest with a "good" feral/hunter. GG. easy 2.2k. The instant clones added with casted clones from the priest was far too strong and I'm glad they're removing it. I'm resto on my druid..played feral for a bit. the 20 second CD sucked...removing 20 second cd and making hard casts, seems to strike just the right note. I like it.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Pazzz View Post
    ...removing 20 second cd and making hard casts, seems to strike just the right note. I like it.
    Only if we can cast it in form. Otherwise the change is terrible.

  4. #24
    I see the problem with clone, and honestly I think it being on a 20s CD was enough. The real problem with ferals right now is the treants. That is the dumbest thing ever. Making all clones casted just makes teams want to tunnel ferals and basically making it so the only healer a feral can play with is a priest so they have access to clone. I like the idea of having PS make cyclone castable in form while moving, that gives you two opportunities to stop it (dispel/interupt) but makes it so the feral has the option to still use it in traditional form (against healers on offense) I think that is an elegant design that actually buffs ferals in peeling by allowing them to defensively spam clone but telegraph they are doing so, while at the same time preserving their current playstyle but offering opportunity to counter. I imagine that would mean more PS clones coming out regularly, but I think that is better all around than it is now. I also wish there was a way to stop a feral from Heart PS/Heal followed by a NT/Heal. That is waayy too strong a heal even for a 6min CD.

    Kinda makes me wish they would do something like that for all instant CC. Scatter has a 1.5s cast. HoJ has a 1s cast affected by haste, etc. I know as playing a DK that I hated having to cast hungering cold but I think in current meta game those kind of melee casts are acceptable as long as they can be done on the move.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    Uh.. why? What's the big difference?
    the big difference are those gcd's.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojo View Post
    the big difference are those gcd's.
    I feel pretty energy starved on my feral compared to my rogue - a couple of seconds forced downtime from CP generators doesn't sound too harsh.

    Something had to be done about the CC though, I levelled up a feral 2weeks ago through pet battles and the week I dinged I took it to a higher MMR than I've been on my rogue this expansion - playing with the same team mates I swapped my full geared main that I've PVPed on since vanilla for a trash-geared class I'd NEVER played before. And had a much easier time. Wearing greens/blues was no problem as it has no effect on your CC rotations - maybe this is an issue with rogues being bad rather than ferals being too strong, but the instant roots and cyclones (along with a stun on a 10sec CD) felt crazy.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
    I highly doubt it.

    Feral was always the most mobile class in game. That is their core ability.

    They nerfed it on Cata, and reversed in on MoP. I don't think they'll do that mistake again.
    When it was the most mobile, it didn't ALSO have the best bleed damage as well as amazing CC as well as pretty good burst as well as amazing self-healing as well as ridiculous support as well as a COMPLETELY unnecessary slow.

    With all those things, ferals could easily and certainly stand to lose power shifting.
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  8. #28
    I am Murloc! Balduvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    1. Other instant cast CC needs to have a cast time as well, if cyclone is getting this treatment. This means no more insta hex for enhance, etc. So far I haven't seen any other instant CC on the radar, though Blue specifically said that they would be doing so. Here's to hoping.
    Enhancement CC (or utility for that matter) is probably the last thing you should complain about. Even some specs/classes that aren't considered "viable" are doing better in this area.

    Other than that, yes, instant CC from whatever class should get a nerf, definitely including Priest fears, Mage sheeps and Warlock horror (not sure about Warlock fear and not talking about spells such as Deep Freeze, HoJ, Bash, Blind, Disorienting Roar etc.). I'd personally like to these instant CC's to be turned into a 1-1.2 second cast (and in the case of Feral, definitely castable in Cat Form). This would be easily interuptable, but not impossible to actually get off or even spam in certain situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    4. The incarnation + berserk + ravage! spam combination needs to have it's damage reworked somehow. We need our strong bleeds but i suspect a lot of complaints come from the burst during this phase. Perhaps the cooldown and duration could be cut by half? This way it's a little easier to counter since 30 seconds is a long time in pvp.
    Most of the actual burst is coming from Berserk rather than Incarnation though, and since Berserk has a 15 sec duration I assume you solely mean Incarnation duration/CD to be cut in half? If Berserk was to be reduced (again) it might as well be removed completely, as anything shorter than 15 seconds would completely destroy the ability. If you mean Incarnation, I can see the point. However, it could only be used with Berserk half of the time then and it would be a relatively mediocre spell whenever used without Berserk (just like it currently is when used seperately).

    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    5. There needs to be some utility brought back to Bear Form. In my opinion bring back Bear Enrage for Feral & Moonkin only on a 3 min cd. Allow the Enrage to instantly shift you into Bear form and break fear. This way it's a long cooldown fear break and you're forced into bear form, so to use offensively you'd have to shift back to cat/moonkin form anyway to do any damage.
    Bear Form simply needs a flat armor increase like it used to provide Feral with for over 6 years. Never saw a reason for changing this, since the fact that a fourth spec solely for tanking was added still doesn't seem like a reason to make Bear Form absolutely useless for Feral outside of Feral Charge. Now that Feral utility is quite heavily tinkered with, I think it would be fair to see some additional survivability in return.

    Personally I'd like to see the armor to be upped from 120% to 180-200 ish %, with the Glyph of Cat Form (20% more healing done) applying to Bear Form as well (Feral only). Not gamebreaking, but it'd actually make Bear Form serve a purpose once more like it always used to do.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Mage sheeps and Warlock horror
    Sheep already has a cast time. PoM is almost needed for mages vs melee cleaves to even get CC out, let alone damage. The only "horrors" locks have are Blood Fear (works like nature's grasp, 4s horror) and Death Coil (3s duration), neither of which need a cast time for that short of a CC. "Mortal Coil" (renamed a lot) has been a staple since at the very least BC (probably farther, but I didn't play in vanilla). If you're referring to Howl of Terror I suppose that's ok, but even then a large chunk of warlocks already take Coil over it anyways, that would only futher deter them from taking it, especially as it'll be even harder to get off with a cast time when they can't cast while moving in 5.4.

    Get rid of our "mandatory" glyphs so we can have some options again. As is Cat Form is 100% mandatory, no doubt about it. You can't PvE or PvP without it. Used to be baked into Cat Form and then for some reason was taken away. Savage Roar could be baseline as well, would definately be a nice QoL change, and once again free up a glyph spot. While SR isn't a mandatory glyph it is used by a very very large portion of the playerbase and is (from what I understand) essentially mandatory in PvE content.

    In terms of Bear Form, I'd just like some sort of utility that it's not 100% useless besides Bear Charge and Ursoc. I'm not asking for the OP as hell Enraged Regen of Cata back, but the 6% spell damage reduction from Perseverance or enabling Enraged Regen to reduce spell damage taken by x% for y seconds but adds a (rather large) cooldown. Hell if the "mandatory" glyphs get made baseline you could give us a glyph for Bear Form so that we have a choice per comp, rather than instantly having it.

    I'd also love to have Symbiosis scrapped. Good idea, terrible for comps. Right now for instance ferals are just about forced to play with a disc for Dispersion and Clones. Give us some kind of new defensive, or rework one of our current ones so we can get rid of this ability, for the most part (from what I've seen) it's been one of the most complained about abilities this entire expansion (from both druids and other classes).


    Note these are of course my opinions and I welcome any feedback.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Enhancement CC (or utility for that matter) is probably the last thing you should complain about. Even some specs/classes that aren't considered "viable" are doing better in this area.

    Other than that, yes, instant CC from whatever class should get a nerf, definitely including Priest fears, Mage sheeps and Warlock horror (not sure about Warlock fear and not talking about spells such as Deep Freeze, HoJ, Bash, Blind, Disorienting Roar etc.). I'd personally like to these instant CC's to be turned into a 1-1.2 second cast (and in the case of Feral, definitely castable in Cat Form). This would be easily interuptable, but not impossible to actually get off or even spam in certain situations.

    Most of the actual burst is coming from Berserk rather than Incarnation though, and since Berserk has a 15 sec duration I assume you solely mean Incarnation duration/CD to be cut in half? If Berserk was to be reduced (again) it might as well be removed completely, as anything shorter than 15 seconds would completely destroy the ability. If you mean Incarnation, I can see the point. However, it could only be used with Berserk half of the time then and it would be a relatively mediocre spell whenever used without Berserk (just like it currently is when used seperately).

    Bear Form simply needs a flat armor increase like it used to provide Feral with for over 6 years. Never saw a reason for changing this, since the fact that a fourth spec solely for tanking was added still doesn't seem like a reason to make Bear Form absolutely useless for Feral outside of Feral Charge. Now that Feral utility is quite heavily tinkered with, I think it would be fair to see some additional survivability in return.

    Personally I'd like to see the armor to be upped from 120% to 180-200 ish %, with the Glyph of Cat Form (20% more healing done) applying to Bear Form as well (Feral only). Not gamebreaking, but it'd actually make Bear Form serve a purpose once more like it always used to do.
    Thanks for your reply. Few things:

    1. Only listed enhance hex as it was the first thing that popped to mind. I do hope Blizz will keep to their promise and look at other instant CC.

    2. Yes, I did mean incarnation only. But looking at it I realize it's a 3min cd so as you say it wouldn't make sense to reduce it since it's only used with zerk anyway. I'm guessing !Ravage damage (combined with NV & trinket boost) is the big culprit anyway. What if Incarnation shared a CD with trink/NV? Or if that's too detrimental just tone down the top end of !Ravage by a good amount and turn it into a bleed that stacks.

    3. I suspect blizz wants to shy away from passive 'tankiness' of feral since they split feral and guardian anyway for similar and balance reasons. Besides, all phys dmg classes have armor ignore mechanics anyway (including us), so I don't see the usefulness or this happening at all. I'm convinced that a Enrage being brought back to Feral's Bear form on a 3min CD as a fear break is the way to go. Or something else that provides some active dmg mitigation or utility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalysun View Post
    Sheep already has a cast time. PoM is almost needed for mages vs melee cleaves to even get CC out, let alone damage. The only "horrors" locks have are Blood Fear (works like nature's grasp, 4s horror) and Death Coil (3s duration), neither of which need a cast time for that short of a CC. "Mortal Coil" (renamed a lot) has been a staple since at the very least BC (probably farther, but I didn't play in vanilla). If you're referring to Howl of Terror I suppose that's ok, but even then a large chunk of warlocks already take Coil over it anyways, that would only futher deter them from taking it, especially as it'll be even harder to get off with a cast time when they can't cast while moving in 5.4.

    Get rid of our "mandatory" glyphs so we can have some options again. As is Cat Form is 100% mandatory, no doubt about it. You can't PvE or PvP without it. Used to be baked into Cat Form and then for some reason was taken away. Savage Roar could be baseline as well, would definately be a nice QoL change, and once again free up a glyph spot. While SR isn't a mandatory glyph it is used by a very very large portion of the playerbase and is (from what I understand) essentially mandatory in PvE content.

    In terms of Bear Form, I'd just like some sort of utility that it's not 100% useless besides Bear Charge and Ursoc. I'm not asking for the OP as hell Enraged Regen of Cata back, but the 6% spell damage reduction from Perseverance or enabling Enraged Regen to reduce spell damage taken by x% for y seconds but adds a (rather large) cooldown. Hell if the "mandatory" glyphs get made baseline you could give us a glyph for Bear Form so that we have a choice per comp, rather than instantly having it.

    I'd also love to have Symbiosis scrapped. Good idea, terrible for comps. Right now for instance ferals are just about forced to play with a disc for Dispersion and Clones. Give us some kind of new defensive, or rework one of our current ones so we can get rid of this ability, for the most part (from what I've seen) it's been one of the most complained about abilities this entire expansion (from both druids and other classes).


    Note these are of course my opinions and I welcome any feedback.
    Agreed. Cat form glyph is mandatory, this should simply be made baseline (For feral only). It's simpler to scrap symbiosis but I actually really enjoy the versatility and variety of different things we get. I'd hope they can give us a magic damage defensive cooldown and maybe tone down dispersion/bubble and scale up some of the other useless ones.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    Agreed. Cat form glyph is mandatory, this should simply be made baseline (For feral only). It's simpler to scrap symbiosis but I actually really enjoy the versatility and variety of different things we get. I'd hope they can give us a magic damage defensive cooldown and maybe tone down dispersion/bubble and scale up some of the other useless ones.
    Not really, there are a lot of comps where the feral is barely ever switched to so you don't need the glyph of cat form. Plazmoid, Katnip, Astaraya and other 2.6k+ ferals play 3v3 without using it for every game. For magic defense, there's already a 12second 50% damage reduction spell. Giving an additional damage reduction spell on top of this would not be fair, unless Survival Instincts was changed to a melee defense ability inline with Combat Readiness.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    Not really, there are a lot of comps where the feral is barely ever switched to so you don't need the glyph of cat form. Plazmoid, Katnip, Astaraya and other 2.6k+ ferals play 3v3 without using it for every game. For magic defense, there's already a 12second 50% damage reduction spell. Giving an additional damage reduction spell on top of this would not be fair, unless Survival Instincts was changed to a melee defense ability inline with Combat Readiness.

    How does Feral having glyph of cat form baseline negatively impact you? You listed 3 people out of many that play feral druids. At the high level they play they can count on many things to not get trained. Better peeling from partners, for one. What are the many comps again? Two of the three you linked are playing jungle cleave. The only reason the feral may not get trained as hard is because killing the pet and sitting the hunter is the ONLY counter to hunter teams with their ludicrous, otherwise unpeelable damage.

    Blizzard doesn't make balance decisions based on the minority of top x % players that play in arena. I don't think think they'll add more defense to feral any time soon, but not for any of the reasons you mention, as they're based on such a small minority.

    However, in the grand scheme of things one can recognize that sitting on the feral and purging PS procs was already a very viable strat to shut down feral damage. The only reason this hasn't been happening is that they're playing with people like Hunters and Enhance shaman who can't be left alone because they have much much more burst than Feral does.

    Once hunters and Enhance get toned down (hopefully) sitting the Feral will be a very viable strat against any feral team. Glyph of Cat Form was also a talent in the old tree that should have been made baseline and is overdue.

    I could agree that they don't need any more magic defense, but they do need a fear break.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    How does Feral having glyph of cat form baseline negatively impact you?
    Because it frees up a glyph spot that can be used to take strong glyphs like Skull Bash or Fae Fire. Other classes have to glyph for defence (AMS for DKs, feint/cloak for rogues, MS for warriors) - making cat form baseline gives ferals a free glyph spot. Just because something was baseline once, doesn't mean it deserves to be made baseline again. A lot has changed since it was baseline and ferals definitely have no cause to complain about having to do what other classes already have to do.

    You listed 3 people out of many that play feral druids. At the high level they play they can count on many things to not get trained. Better peeling from partners, for one. What are the many comps again? Two of the three you linked are playing jungle cleave. The only reason the feral may not get trained as hard is because killing the pet and sitting the hunter is the ONLY counter to hunter teams with their ludicrous, otherwise unpeelable damage.

    Blizzard doesn't make balance decisions based on the minority of top x % players that play in arena. I don't think think they'll add more defense to feral any time soon, but not for any of the reasons you mention, as they're based on such a small minority.
    I listed four, I got bored browsing armories at that point. What are the reasons you don't think ferals will get extra defenses? Surely it's the way they have a ton of CC, crazy mobility and strong defenses already?

    I could agree that they don't need any more magic defense, but they do need a fear break.
    But why? Why do they deserve a fear break when they're already immune to polymorphs and see roots as a laughable triviality? What other class can negate two branches of CC without using a single cooldown? If you take away their ability to be feared the only way of shutting down a feral would be to stun it, but they are less vulnerable to stuns compared to other classes thanks to being able to pop barkskin whilst stunned. You're effectively saying you want the class to be hugely immune to CC whilst having the best mobility in the game AND having better stuns than a rogue, a medium-range interrupt, instant roots, an aoe incapacitate and the ability to drop form and spam cyclones if things get a bit scary and all their other CC is on cooldown.
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  14. #34
    Warchief Lulbalance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    Not really, there are a lot of comps where the feral is barely ever switched to so you don't need the glyph of cat form. Plazmoid, Katnip, Astaraya and other 2.6k+ ferals play 3v3 without using it for every game. For magic defense, there's already a 12second 50% damage reduction spell. Giving an additional damage reduction spell on top of this would not be fair, unless Survival Instincts was changed to a melee defense ability inline with Combat Readiness.
    pretty weak.. the only way you can do that safely is if you play with a priest [dispersion]. i'm sure you noticed that's the case in all those players you linked. outside of that it's pretty much a mandatory glyph.

    i agree that they dont need another defensive.. but that glyph is stupid and should be baseline imo.. something that allows cyc to be cast in form + cast time reduction or something interesting.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    pretty weak.. the only way you can do that safely is if you play with a priest [dispersion]. i'm sure you noticed that's the case in all those players you linked. outside of that it's pretty much a mandatory glyph.
    .. it was in response to a post claiming it was a compulsory glyph. It's not compulsory, there are situations where you don't need it based on your comp, as you've just agreed with. Giving it to all ferals when half of them don't need it (those playing with a disc/hpala instead of a rsham/MW) is absolute overkill. I don't know if PVE ferals take glyph of cat form, but they'd suddenly benefit from +20% healing if they didn't, which would affect raid balance. Why shouldn't there be glyphs that are compulsory for PVP?

    Why not give all DKs baseline AMS glyph or all rogues baseline feint glyph? They're pretty essential for PVP which, by the logic used in this thread, is apparently enough to warrant making them baseline.
    Last edited by Dcruize; 2013-07-12 at 01:43 PM.
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  16. #36
    I am Murloc! Balduvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalysun View Post
    The only "horrors" locks have are Blood Fear (works like nature's grasp, 4s horror) and Death Coil (3s duration), neither of which need a cast time for that short of a CC.
    You're probably right, I was already doubting anyway. One thing is for sure though, the current spell is retarded and seriously OP. DR sharing with Fear wouldn't be an option either I guess, so an increased CD would be the only viable way to tune it down then. Some nerf is needed though.

    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    3. I suspect blizz wants to shy away from passive 'tankiness' of feral since they split feral and guardian anyway for similar and balance reasons. Besides, all phys dmg classes have armor ignore mechanics anyway (including us), so I don't see the usefulness or this happening at all. I'm convinced that a Enrage being brought back to Feral's Bear form on a 3min CD as a fear break is the way to go. Or something else that provides some active dmg mitigation or utility.
    I like the idea of being able to break fear again, and with current utility nerfs it wouldn't be too much asked. Especially since most classes have a way to do this as well. However, I don't see a 3 min CD fear breaker help much either. Something like 1.5 minute would seem more reasonable to me.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    I like the idea of being able to break fear again, and with current utility nerfs it wouldn't be too much asked. Especially since most classes have a way to do this as well. However, I don't see a 3 min CD fear breaker help much either. Something like 1.5 minute would seem more reasonable to me.
    But as I said earlier, you're already virtually IMMUNE to two forms of CC (can break without using a SINGLE cooldown) and less vulnerable to stuns than most. Why do you think ferals should have a way of breaking fear as well?
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    But as I said earlier, you're already virtually IMMUNE to two forms of CC (can break without using a SINGLE cooldown) and less vulnerable to stuns than most. Why do you think ferals should have a way of breaking fear as well?
    The physical damage Ferals do when connecting to a target is also half of that of some other melees. Outside of Berserk, Feral damage is pretty pathetic when compared to other classes that have multiple fear breaks and ways to stop ranged CC (Spell Reflect, Cloak, AMS, Bubble, Grip, Charge, SHS, Vanish, etc).

    I'm not saying that Ferals deserve or even need a fear break, but comparing classes like that is ridiculous. It's been said a thousand times that comparing classes utility just doesn't work (even like I just did.. using Vanish to stop a polymorph is a waste of a CD 99.9% of the time, but it could land a kill that other 0.1%).
    Last edited by Snuggli; 2013-07-12 at 02:52 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    The physical damage Ferals do when connecting to a target is also half of that of some other melees. Outside of Berserk, Feral damage is pretty pathetic when compared to other classes that have multiple fear breaks and ways to stop ranged CC (Spell Reflect, Cloak, AMS, Bubble, Grip, Charge, SHS, Vanish, etc).

    I'm not saying that Ferals deserve or even need a fear break, but comparing classes like that is ridiculous. It's been said a thousand times that comparing classes utility just doesn't work (even like I just did.. using Vanish to stop a polymorph is a waste of a CD 99.9% of the time, but it could land a kill that other 0.1%).
    If you don't compare classes you cannot have any debate about buffs/nerfs. It's this whole attitude of 'oh something was taken off me, therefore I need to be compensated' mindset that I'm complaining about. Ferals are ridiculously strong at the moment and the PTR changes balance them nicely - compensating the nerfs by making cyclone castable in catform, giving baseline +20% healing or gaining a fear break would be acceptable only if feral was currently a subpar spec.

    It's all irrelevant at the moment anyway. Currently (on the PTR) PVP is won by the team with the best PVE trinkets.
    Last edited by Dcruize; 2013-07-12 at 03:20 PM.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    If you don't compare classes you cannot have any debate about buffs/nerfs. It's this whole attitude of 'oh something was taken off me, therefore I need to be compensated' mindset that I'm complaining about. Ferals are ridiculously strong at the moment and the PTR changes balance them nicely - compensating the nerfs by making cyclone castable in catform, giving baseline +20% healing or gaining a fear break would be acceptable only if feral was currently a subpar spec.
    Completely removing treant stun, nature's swiftness and PS clones is a little overkill for a class that is only slightly over represented, surely? They have 1 tier 1 comp, and a couple tier 2 and 3 comps. Besides, just looking at representation, apparently Warriors are better than Ferals right now.

    Ferals will need to be compensated in 5.4, because as it currently stands they will have no viable comps once cyclone and bash have been removed. It will be a joke spec. Will be trained more than Enhance but with half the burst and utility.

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