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  1. #81
    I would say it's a combination of:

    1. It's possible to go really fast in dungeons so people feel like the tank is wasting their time if s/he is slower then what is possible.
    2. The game is so old that people simply don't find the concept of 5-mans fun anymore, they are a means to an end and should be end as quickly as possible.

  2. #82
    The Patient Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Don't you think we are overstating how often this happens just a bit? Having leveled multiple toons through dungeons as a tank and healer and dps this kind of overzealous dps pulling before tanks only happens maybe 5% of the instances I've been part of and only ever happend when it was pretty clear the tank was taking 15+ sec siesta brakes between pulls and generally had no clue what he was doing. People didn't do this in the past because 5 man trash hit hard enough to quickly kill dps/healers but that isn't the case so why is it that the dps/healers are adjusting to this fact but some tanks are stuck in the past operating on ceremony alone?

    Main:Paarthurnax | Alt:Peijing | <Huge in Japan> 14/14H US#16
    “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.”
    --Littlefinger

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    The game is so old that people simply don't find the concept of 5-mans fun anymore, they are a means to an end and should be end as quickly as possible.
    CLose but not quite. It's not that the game is old, it's that we're far enough into MoP that most people don't need the gear they drop so they run them for VP. The problem with this is that they're being done as a chore, not as something fun to do and people approach chores as something to get over as quick as possible. . No one cares about the drops and there's no challenge in them anymore.

    The way to design around this would be for Blizzard to nerf the VP given by LFG group content and buff the VP given by things you do solo or in small premade groups (Heroic Scenarios, or even premade 5 mans). That would disincent people from approaching heroics as chores and incent them to go do things like kill rares on IoT, etc. To give numbers, make the heroics worth, say, 40 VP and each IoT rare worth 25 or 30. You'd be better off killing the rares. Hell, even eliminate VP from 5 mans... you run them for XP and, at 90, for gear. That way they're never a chore you queue for, you do them for some thing inherent in the dungeon (a drop, quest, etc).

  4. #84
    because you can...its too easy.

    Try this in other games.....you can spot the dps who pulled before the tank in Rift, its the one lying dead onthe floor....

    WoW used to be like that, but sadly its become a but faceroll at the 5man level.

  5. #85
    Don't be slow as fuck then I won't pull, simply put. No reason to stand still for 30 seconds, randomly afk at the start of an instance etc. I do dungeons on low lvl characters because they are considered to be faster than leveling, not true if you take 10 years to pull.

    At 90, I tank instances and generally get them done in a few pulls and as quick as possible to spare people the pain of waiting forever.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Xihuitl View Post
    because you can...its too easy.

    Try this in other games.....you can spot the dps who pulled before the tank in Rift, its the one lying dead onthe floor....

    WoW used to be like that, but sadly its become a but faceroll at the 5man level.
    Speaking as a DPS from the start of the game, it was never like that unless you were bad. There were few classes that couldn't easily kite stuff back to a tank and live through it. Heck, when BC launched that was actually a pull strategy in some cases so things didn't kill the tank when you didn't have enough CC or things weren't CCable.

  7. #87
    If I had $1 for everytime someone said "LOL ITS LFR LETS PULL WITH 8 PLAYERS SHORT" and then proceed to wipe, I'd buyout Apple.

  8. #88
    Players are, I think, a lot younger than they used to be. They are so used to the world (ie their mummies) doing everything they want instantly they have no idea how to behave in normal groups with mixed ages. They assume everyone is an entitlement mummy's boy in a hurry because they are about to be told, for the 10th time, go to bed my little angel. A few years at work getting 'slapped' for behaving like spoilt brats will usually get their brains in gear. If not, they become civil servants or MPs.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Speaking as a DPS from the start of the game, it was never like that unless you were bad. There were few classes that couldn't easily kite stuff back to a tank and live through it. Heck, when BC launched that was actually a pull strategy in some cases so things didn't kill the tank when you didn't have enough CC or things weren't CCable.
    But you could not, in TBC, pull all of the trash from the start of the instance to the first boss, pull the boss and live. I know, I was there. Now, *maybe* you could in full T6 gear but short of that? No.

    xihuitl is right - being able to do this in decent but not amazing gear means 5 mans are too easy. Blizzard decided to cater to people who wanted heroics to last 30 minutes. Scaling them so that the average player to be able to do a heroic in 30 mins means that good players in epics can do them in 10-15 minutes.

    Face it, the game's so easy now that you can level 1-90 and gear out to at least a 510-515 ilevel without ever talking to anyone at all. Level up solo. Queue for heroics or scenarios. Get to 460, LFR. 470 More LFR. 480 More LFR. Between ToT LFR, VP/rep gear and VP upgrades you can easily get to the mid 51x range without even one friend in game and without needing to be in a guild. That feels like poor design for an MMO.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    But you could not, in TBC, pull all of the trash from the start of the instance to the first boss, pull the boss and live. I know, I was there. Now, *maybe* you could in full T6 gear but short of that? No.

    xihuitl is right - being able to do this in decent but not amazing gear means 5 mans are too easy. Blizzard decided to cater to people who wanted heroics to last 30 minutes. Scaling them so that the average player to be able to do a heroic in 30 mins means that good players in epics can do them in 10-15 minutes.

    Face it, the game's so easy now that you can level 1-90 and gear out to at least a 510-515 ilevel without ever talking to anyone at all. Level up solo. Queue for heroics or scenarios. Get to 460, LFR. 470 More LFR. 480 More LFR. Between ToT LFR, VP/rep gear and VP upgrades you can easily get to the mid 51x range without even one friend in game and without needing to be in a guild. That feels like poor design for an MMO.
    I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about his Rift reference vs vanilla.


    Though personally, I think "Challenge Modes" should be the Heroic mode. They can even incentivise them with a chance at personal gear drops like the Heroic Scenarios. That also means they can make that scale with each patch.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Jichi View Post
    I think people act like that because, as you have mentioned yourself, it is very hard to die in lower level dungeons (but also in level 90 'heroics' and lfr). Game itself is not punishing them for this kind of behaviour.

    I've also noticed recently that people don't even bother to ress those who died (for whatever reason) in dg/lfr, especially after the final boss is dead. I just don't understand that.

    Personally, if it is people that have died on the boss, and we kill it, I res them. However, nothing is more annoying and selfish, than when you run back in, and they go "Res plz" because they simply cannot be bothered. It's a horrible mentality and is basically "I am better than you, or think I am".

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    Personally, if it is people that have died on the boss, and we kill it, I res them. However, nothing is more annoying and selfish, than when you run back in, and they go "Res plz" because they simply cannot be bothered. It's a horrible mentality and is basically "I am better than you, or think I am".
    I make a point of ignoring anyone who uses 'pls' or plz' instead of 'please'. Its unbelievably lazy.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    This might be the most ignorant/stupid thing I've ever read regarding WoW.

    OT: Just let them tank it. Someone pulls shit when I'm going I just let them tank it.
    I was going to write something long about why that mentality is retarded (your mentality) but it's not worth it. There are too many slow tanks, DPS that can't play and healers that run out of mana in the game. And the game shouldn't cater to the game, they should get better at the game or just stop playing that aspect of the game till they are willing to get better.

    If you are outrun by DPS as a tank, you are bad. There's no consequences now so apparently being bad is "fine".

    Here's a picture of my newest tanks (71 monk) inventory:

    I have flasks, potions, food buffs for different levels, etc. All my gear is enchanted, gemmed and it's the best I could get. The gold use for buffs and leftover is only what my monk earned because I never send new chars gold (so I can see where a new player should be in terms of gold/gear).
    Why do I use all of those? Because the game uses a precious currency: My time and 4 other people's time; I will get whatever I can so I can speed things up to make it better for everyone. If you lack those things, I consider you disrespect everyone in the party by under performing and wasting something that can't be refunded: TIME!
    Last edited by Ichifails; 2013-07-12 at 08:28 PM.

  14. #94
    Way to be obsessed with efficiency....

  15. #95
    Herald of the Titans Syridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheekin View Post
    You didn't have this garbage back in Vanilla or TBC, dps pulls mob = dead dps. There are many other reasons but that is one of the bigger ones.
    Yeah you did. It just took longer to fix.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    I make a point of ignoring anyone who uses 'pls' or plz' instead of 'please'. Its unbelievably lazy.
    It's.* Or were you being lazy?

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Vereesà View Post
    There is no excuse. Simply put, you're not doing your job right if a DPS ever gets to pull before you do.

    Most of the time, in fact, it should be the DPS asking for you to slow down because they can't keep up with you.
    This mentality is the reason we have a "tank and healer shortage" and DPS are forced to sit in long queues for LFR/heroics/etc... There are far too many variables to make a blanket statement like this. What if it's someone's first time tanking or healing? What if you've just zoned in and have to change specs? What if you're healer is undergeared and oom? What if you've never done the instance before?

    DPS who pull for tanks are only contributing to their own demise at level 90 with LFR queues, because it discourages people from wanting to tank.

    Just my $.02 as someone who routinely plays all three roles.

    edit: I am of course not referring to the tanks that sit and ready check every single pull. I am referring to the DPS that go ahead and pull more trash while the rest of the group is still on the last boss/trash pack.

  17. #97
    Stood in the Fire Bombino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shuji V2 View Post
    I know that my tanking skills aren't to be questioned
    This is your perception, if it's possible other people are pulling for you and you can safely threat them and not die, it's possible you could be pulling faster.

    I think the much bigger problem is a lot of tank's lack of an open mind. When it use to be harder to get aggro, people still pulled for me and I thought it was fun and challenging being pushed to threat and not die, as that's a tanks job. Now it's significantly easier to threat and heroics are a joke in even full pvp gear, and people still want to go slow, very mindboggling.

    Yea, it's generally better for the tank to pull, but if you feel that way, understand you're controlling the pace and RL time of 4 other people, so you should be flexible to what the group wants.

  18. #98
    The Patient MyCelar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shuji V2 View Post
    It occurs on a regular basis whenever I do dungeons (doesn't really matter whether it is low level or 90-heroics) that people feel the need to pull in front of the tanks. But for the love of god, why?

    I know that my tanking skills aren't to be questioned, I chain pull and usually grab an appropriate amount of mobs relative to the distance to a new pack. But it also happens when I queue as a healer or DPS that even though they are very much capable tanks, people just keep pulling as if their lives depend on it.

    What's the point in running miles and run back to train them on the tank? You know you have to walk that distance again right? Essentially you're doing double work which isn't efficient at all. Another thing is, people like to mess up pulls by not waiting 'till the tank is at least in range of the mobs and use an AoE ability. With this I mean, you can wait just ONE second so that the tank has direct aggro on a pack rather than attract all the mobs to you and make the tank work a double shift (or possibly triple if you're really pushing it to be annoying).

    Personally, I do whatever I can role appropriate-wise to make those people pay the price for that. As a healer, I refuse to heal people like that and as a tank, I'll just let them die and pick up afterwards. Of course I let people know when it happens, please do not pull ahead of me. But if they refuse, I'll refuse to do my job too.

    In all honesty, perhaps I can not cope with this change to the World of Warcraft. I've been a vanilla player up to the beginning of cataclysm (where I went on hiatus) and only started playing again since a month. It just really bothers me that dungeons are pretty much the same as scenarios minus the boring storytelling. I am just really used to having set roles for each player and that you couldn't continue with one or the other. So you were forced to work together and execute your roles as perfectly as you could. Because you knew that those mobs would otherwise kill you within 2 hits.

    Now it just feels like the lines between tanks, healers and dps are just blurring more and more and specs become obsolete. I mean, whenever I try to let someone die they can still manage to survive perfectly fine while not having any good gear at all. To me, that really ruins the fun in the game because I believe in having set roles for each class and spec. In most cases I end up leaving the dungeon just because of it.

    But anyways, it might just be me not being able to get used to this change. Any thoughts from other people?
    Cus every 5 man except Challenge Modes are tuned for level 80s.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Vereesà View Post
    There is no excuse. Simply put, you're not doing your job right if a DPS ever gets to pull before you do.

    Most of the time, in fact, it should be the DPS asking for you to slow down because they can't keep up with you.
    The speed of pulls are not dictated by the role.
    If the speed is not to your liking, spec for and queue as a tank.
    Try talking rather than giving them reason to be another tank missing from the queue.
    And another reason for you to whine about how there are never enough tanks around.
    That is a huge part of why there aren't tanks around, because when can they actually learn to be one if someone else does not know their job.

  20. #100
    Because they've convinced themselves that their free time is not only worth money to them, but that it should be to everyone they come in contact with.

    Which is, of course, nonsense.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

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