Confusion about Glyph of Icy Veins

[Mbh]

Hey there, i've been looking for some information on this glyph, and all i've managed to find is "if you have enough haste, use it. If not, don't"

While in theory i understand this answer is correct but does anybody know some numbers for this? how much haste you actually need before this becomes useful?

My mage's armoury - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Gendis/simple Would appreciate somebody to explain to me if i should or should not be using the glyph.

Thank you

[Frost1129]

I can't remember the exact number (going through the frost guide thread should find this for you) but IIRC, the logic was if you are under hero / meta gem and are under 1.s cast on frost bolt, use the glyph. Which basically is if you have T15 gear.

I'm not the most up to date mage on specific frost mechanics though, seeing as I play and prefer fire now-a-days.

EDIT: did you read the first post of the frost thread?

"Glyph of icy veins exists so we don't GCD cap our instant spells while under it. It's functionally the same, you're trading 20% faster damage for 20% more damage. The difference is, you don't gain faster bomb speeds. To make up for this, it has a hidden +20% modifier on fingers of frost proc chance while active. Take this glyph when you're over 50% haste, raid buffed, with icy veins up. Remember: don't stack IV with time warp while unglyphed, but do stack it when glyphed.

To that end, Nathyiel has compiled a list of various points where this point is hit in a raid with 5% haste:
Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
The IV cap are:

25.00% haste full raid buff.
19.05% haste with only Frozen Armor.
11.25% haste from gear (4786 haste rating)
10.16% haste for Goblin (4318 haste rating)

I would like it noted that you do not stop stacking haste past this point. You continue to do so. It's just a break point where the added haste from IV is worth less than the 20% damage of glyphed IV."

Finding the exact haste ratings should be trivial from the percentages listed.

After these caps, Nathyiel claims the haste is wasted. There is a post about how IV haste can be used to game NT / LB snapshoting to increase DPS as frost. But I dont think I ever saw logs posted for that claim. In fact, I saw logs posted which contest the claim. Until I see logs to confirm it, I will not believe it to be true.

Here is the thread in question: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ou-Quick-Guide

[Deleted]

Just a precision, since 5.2 and the bomb boost, it's could be interesting to go with the glyph at high haste fr those using NT.

[Frost1129]

Just a precision, since 5.2 and the bomb boost, it's could be interesting to go with the glyph at high haste fr those using NT.

Right, that's basically the post I linked. Did people actually gather a bunch of logs to show it is a real DPS increase though?

[villie]

Right, that's basically the post I linked. Did people actually gather a bunch of logs to show it is a real DPS increase though?

You don't need logs, it will always be a dps increase because once you reach the gcd cap the game will physically not let you cast any faster no matter how much haste you have past that point.

Think about it like this: 4786 is non goblin cap. If you have this you will cast 10 instants in 10s, if you have 1000000 haste you will still only cast 10 instants in 10s.

What the glyph allows you to do is utilise the haste you have over the cap by swapping speed for damage. So with the glyph you would fit say 7 instants in 10s but they would hit 20% harder making up for the loss, but the more haste you get will eventually allow more casts @20% extra damage which is a dps increase every day of the week :-)

[Aktec]

The point of not glyphing it is that you use NT and get stupid amounts of haste and then get chain brain freeze procs. Personally I probably wouldn't be able to keep up with it and a lot of procs would go to waste but there are people that swear by it.

[Deleted]

Basically the moment you go over 50% haste with IV is the most commonly used threshhold. This means a raidbuffed static haste of 25% which is seriously low.
Though as Nathyiel mentioned some choose to go without the glyph even at static haste >40% due to the benefit of extra ticks of NT, I personally don't do this and won't comment on it but it is anther viable route to go.
As long as you have gear that is above 500 ilvl you can make your choice. Either glyph it, or don't.

[Akraen]

If you're above 13053 haste stop using the glyph if you want to buy into my crazy frost methodology that most think I'm an idiot for doing yet gives incredible results.

[Mastamage]

I've tried to spread the discussion and usage of non-glyphed IV, Akraen, but there are the select few on each forum (Icy-Veins, MMO-C, Official Forums) that proceed to knock it down without trying it.

Apparently old napkin math is all they ever want to use.

[Frost1129]

You don't need logs, it will always be a dps increase because once you reach the gcd cap the game will physically not let you cast any faster no matter how much haste you have past that point.

Think about it like this: 4786 is non goblin cap. If you have this you will cast 10 instants in 10s, if you have 1000000 haste you will still only cast 10 instants in 10s.

What the glyph allows you to do is utilise the haste you have over the cap by swapping speed for damage. So with the glyph you would fit say 7 instants in 10s but they would hit 20% harder making up for the loss, but the more haste you get will eventually allow more casts @20% extra damage which is a dps increase every day of the week :-)

You didn't read my post well enough. I was talking about providing logs for the idea Akraen posted about (in the thread I linked) which posits that NOT glyphing for IV in order to reach ridiculous haste caps and then snapshotting NT / LB will be a DPS increase over glyphing and gaining more damage. I'm well aware of why people normally glyph IV.

- - - Updated - - -

If you're above 13053 haste stop using the glyph if you want to buy into my crazy frost methodology that most think I'm an idiot for doing yet gives incredible results.

I'm glad you can claim there is a DPS increase. It's an interesting concept. I'm asking you to provide proof.

[Deleted]

I've tried to spread the discussion and usage of non-glyphed IV, Akraen, but there are the select few on each forum (Icy-Veins, MMO-C, Official Forums) that proceed to knock it down without trying it.

Apparently old napkin math is all they ever want to use.

You can't really math the actual model for frost.

[Frost1129]

I've tried to spread the discussion and usage of non-glyphed IV, Akraen, but there are the select few on each forum (Icy-Veins, MMO-C, Official Forums) that proceed to knock it down without trying it.

Apparently old napkin math is all they ever want to use.

If you've done some significant work to show it is better, can you link me to it?

[Jaylol]

I've tried to spread the discussion and usage of non-glyphed IV, Akraen, but there are the select few on each forum (Icy-Veins, MMO-C, Official Forums) that proceed to knock it down without trying it.

Apparently old napkin math is all they ever want to use.

It just might be because you've provided close to no real evidence while acting like everyone who doesn't follow your method is just a completely inferior player.

And before you say anything about me not trying it, I tried it and it provided such marginal results that it isn't even worth the absurd amount of clunkiness it brings.

[Frost1129]

It just might be because you've provided close to no real evidence while acting like everyone who doesn't follow your method is just a completely inferior player.

And before you say anything about me not trying it, I tried it and it provided such marginal results that it isn't even worth the absurd amount of clunkiness it brings.

This is pretty much where I stand on the issue. It's an interesting idea, but if it can give the results some claim then why cant they provide some concrete evidence of it? A standard 7.5% increase should be really easy to show. For a mage averaging 150k, that's another 11,250k DPS increase. Pretty significant and easy to point out with some logs - if it exists.

[Polarthief]

If you're above 13053 haste stop using the glyph if you want to buy into my crazy frost methodology that most think I'm an idiot for doing yet gives incredible results.

Or just go Fire because Frost isn't looking good for 5.4 (Even if they fix the spec entirely, the trinkets aren't looking good for it)

[Frost1129]

So I actually just read through that entire Frost Haste cap thread, and believe Akraen is totally, 100% wrong.

The math on how DoTs work doesn't support his conclusions, and I doubt the DPS you gain from addition BF procs with high haste on NT (assuming you arn't wasting them due to GCD limiting your spam - which I bet you will) will offset the DPS potential from switching gems to Int or the damage bonus from icy veins, or not wasting haste on all your other spells.

So in conclusion: follow the initial advice I quoted. After those haste values you should be glyphing icy veins.

[Akraen]

So I actually just read through that entire Frost Haste cap thread, and believe Akraen is totally, 100% wrong.

The math on how DoTs work doesn't support his conclusions, and I doubt the DPS you gain from addition BF procs with high haste on NT (assuming you arn't wasting them due to GCD limiting your spam - which I bet you will) will offset the DPS potential from switching gems to Int or the damage bonus from icy veins, or not wasting haste on all your other spells.

So in conclusion: follow the initial advice I quoted. After those haste values you should be glyphing icy veins.

If I'm wrong then the difference is so negligible or I'm just that much of a better player than others. I doubt it's the latter.

You can number crunch for a year about what I ought to do, or I can plug gems in and get you a parse. Here's a Heroic Council: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n0...?s=4559&e=4917

Why would I actively try to mislead people? I do fine for a 539 ilvl, beating plenty of people higher ilvl with glyphed icy veins. I'm also getting beat by people with glyphed icy veins but are also higher ilvl. More evidence to the former.

What I'm asking you to do is to prove I'm wrong. Not because I think I'm the be-all-end-all frost mage, but because I'm doing this experiment and finding good results. Empirical analysis is the best tool for those honest enough to admit they can't crunch the math themselves. That'd be me.

Even if you disagree with my thread about haste plateaus, those plateaus still exist. Regardless of your gearing method, those numbers are true and a helpful reference-- at least give me credit for that.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

If I'm wrong then the difference is so negligible or I'm just that much of a better player than others. I doubt it's the latter.

You can number crunch for a year about what I ought to do, or I can plug gems in and get you a parse. Here's a Heroic Council: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n0...?s=4559&e=4917

Why would I actively try to mislead people? I do fine for a 539 ilvl, beating plenty of people higher ilvl with glyphed icy veins. I'm also getting beat by people with glyphed icy veins but are also higher ilvl. More evidence to the former.

What I'm asking you to do is to prove I'm wrong. Not because I think I'm the be-all-end-all frost mage, but because I'm doing this experiment and finding good results. Empirical analysis is the best tool for those honest enough to admit they can't crunch the math themselves. That'd be me.

Even if you disagree with my thread about haste plateaus, those plateaus still exist. Regardless of your gearing method, those numbers are true and a helpful reference-- at least give me credit for that.

A valid result must be repeatable, a single log can easily be explained as an anomaly. You are the one putting forth the argument that your method is better thus you must present proof to back your argument or concede. It isn't up to them to prove you wrong before you've even put forth proof of you being right. Your numbers are effectively the same thing as plugging in the numbers to Simcraft then running only one iteration then saying "This is it! This proves I'm right!".

[Akraen]

I've been doing this for months and having consistently good results for months. What more do you want from me? A sudden math degree?

Have mods delete all my threads. I don't care anymore. The hostility from you guys the moment someone thinks outside the box is unreal. I've come out of hiding for a few days and find it's even worse.

You just use this bizarre logic as though that's the only council attempt I've ever had, or any fight for that matter. On Iron Qon heroic I beat the fire mage on every single attempt. Tomorrow when we kill it I'll post that parse for you too.

What's a forum? A collective of people gathering to give input on one topic or another.
What's productive discussion? Different ideas collaborating and sharing experiences for others to process and weigh in on.
What's the ideal result? Those who (maybe you?) are able to represent ideas with math can process the data and share it back with the world.

But what's actually been happening in these forums? In-fighting between specs and within specs. Syllogistic fallacies and quick retorts to honest well-thought opinions and efforts. Assumptions that many people are just here to waste your time when far more productive gain would be by a collaborative effort.

But you're not interested in that. You don't even want to be right. You just want me to be wrong. Maybe I am. I'll just have to keep changing small variables and testing because I've yet to get any better information from sources like these.

- - - Updated - - -

Or just go Fire because Frost isn't looking good for 5.4 (Even if they fix the spec entirely, the trinkets aren't looking good for it)

You're really getting old around here. You of all people should know not to recommend fire to me :P

[voltaa]

What I'm asking you to do is to prove I'm wrong.

That isn't how the scientific method traditionally works, usually the guy with the left field theory proves the concrete and proven theory wrong, not the other way around, you are arguing that you are right because no one has bothered to prove you wrong.