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  1. #41
    Isn't it obvious? Perhaps you haven't been following the actions and statements of the developers for the past couple of years. They're incompetent. Their insecurities which exist from the absence of PvP or even time spend in-game forces them to draw out everything. They don't notice obvious things that are broken because they wait months for community feedback. If Ghostcrawler and Holinka actually bothered playing the game they would probably change things at a significantly faster paste...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima View Post
    The reasons given are:

    • It's hard to predict how this changes will actually affect the in-game world, regardless of how good it may look on paper. Usually tested internally and/ or PTR.
    • How to fix the change without destabilizing PvE for the spec/ class.*
    • May require a whole spec revamp.
    • They do not want the players to feel like they constantly have to relearn their class.

    *The reason why you see this and not so much the other way around is because the opponent can be changed instead, that is, the "boss". E.g; "Omggggggg Balance is so OP on 3/7 fights, please nerf class Blizz". Blizzard: "Adds now take X% reduced damage from Damage over Time effects." Or cleave damage (Garalon says hihi, Rogues!), or whatever. In PvP, you can't nerf the static component because there isn't one. I guess a close example I can give would be The Council Fights. Depending on the randomly chosen order/ selection of mobs, a fight is easy/ hard. Halfus as an example, some guilds/ servers couldn't progress on for the first resets due to terrible set ups. This is as opposed to Rogue/Mage which rocks against X/Y but sucks against BM/Disc. A lot harder to balance.

    Did I intend to write that much? Hell no, but it feels great to be back at the keyboard.
    There haven't been many changes equal to a spec being revamped in-between patches. Just small changes which could have been done way faster. I mean if you went to work and had to focus on PvP balance 40 hours per week for several months, you'd think that you would have come up with something besides buffing Feral and Retribution damage to god-status and increasing the CD of Shockwave to 40 seconds while waiting half a year to do something about BM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    Its a great thing they listen to the pvp community in the beta. Oh right, they don't.
    I agree that they should. For an example MoP beta was out forever and everybody complained about Arms being OP and yet they didn't do anything. But most people lack the ability to post criticism constructively which makes it hard for them to interpret feedback and see what's actually going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Hastily making a change to nerf a blatantly OP class will result in several other unbalances.
    Possibly. But Arms/BM control, Demonology burst and Shadow utility should've been dealt with earlier before they ruined an entire patch. Or several patches in some cases.

  2. #42
    Because changing things too much mid-season is stupid. Exceptions are sometimes made in the case of 350k Heroic Strikes but yeh, usually things that aren't considered "broken" won't be changed until new season starts. Also PvE has a part in it.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by MORGATH99 View Post
    just nerf mage palys and druids and everything will be ok
    Without sounding to offensive, this is what I was talking about earlier. Mages aren't OP at all right now. But the casual player does not understand that and as Blizzard relies on community feedback this is the perfect example of why things then take time as they have to separate, certain groups of players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Because changing things too much mid-season is stupid. Exceptions are sometimes made in the case of 350k Heroic Strikes but yeh, usually things that aren't considered "broken" won't be changed until new season starts. Also PvE has a part in it.
    Letting entire seasons be ruined by Hunters in MoP, Rogues in Cata, etc is stupid as well, in my opinion...

  4. #44
    I think there's various reasons that could be responsible:

    1) They are incompetent at balancing PvP and do not have a proper understanding of how PvP works at high levels of play themselves

    2) They have poor internal PvP testers

    3) They do not take on board the feedback of good PvP players (no excuse for this now as twitch streams of top players tell you everything you need to know about the state of PvP either via player commentary or actual gameplay footage)

    4) They don't care about whether PvP is imbalanced or not

    5) They are balancing for average players not for the top end of the pyramid

    6) They do not like making players have to constantly readjust to new values for abilities every week - stability is better than instability

    7) They give PvE balance precedence over PvP balance since way more people play and care about PvE than PvP, so if an ability is hitting fine in PvE but too hard in PvP it won't get nerfed

    8) They are purposely leaving at least one or more classes in a more powerful state than the others between patches and constantly rotate which one this class will be to encourage players to reroll and thus get more mileage out of their game

    To be honest though I feel WoW is too long in the tooth for any radical changes to happen and address this issue and there may be some engine limitations as well, idk. Of course the perfect solution would be to separate the way abilities work in PvE and PvP or at the very least to change how much damage or healing they do. However, even if this were implemented, I think it would ruin the "feeling" of an mmo the purpose of which is to give you a fantasy world to participate in rather than just another video game with lobbies.

    I do wonder though, since PvP is constantly imbalanced whether this means that PvE is always balanced? I'd like to hear from some PvErs if possible. What constitutes balance between classes in PvE? Is it just a case of every class being able to produce the same dps or damage done at the end of a fight if played properly? Or are some classes better because they have ways of surviving/avoiding damage and therefore conserving the raid healers' mana better?

    Having said all this I think with 5.4 they are doing a pretty good job of nerfing and buffing in the right areas. Just based on personal experience I think the game is going to be in the most balanced state all expansion if the changes on PTR go live and maybe even one of the most balanced patches ever. From playing PTR it feels like:

    mage - balanced now with frost mage mastery nerf

    rogue - some buffs making it balanced

    dk - balanced

    warrior - buffs making it balanced

    lock - nerf to lock gateway charges down to 1 min therefore balanced

    hunter - readiness nerf makes them a lot more balanced along with no silencing shot for bm, although may still be a little too good - mm damage is a bit high

    ret - survivability buffed which is good but so is damage via inquisition buff which i'm not sure is a good idea but altogether strong though not op I feel

    enhance - buffed survivability so strong but not op

    ele - still op and got more survivability buffs without addressing random lava burst proccing lava burst proccing lava burst

    spriest - balanced

    boomkin - balanced

    feral - balanced now with cyclone nerf

    ww - balanced

    All I hope for now is they learn from WoW and not make the same mistakes in Titan.
    Last edited by Monksrus; 2013-07-07 at 02:15 PM.

  5. #45
    7) They give PvE balance precedence over PvP balance since way more people play and care about PvE than PvP, so if an ability is hitting fine in PvE but too hard in PvP it won't get nerfed
    This is not the case at all, and Hunters are proof of that. They've been nerfed to obscurity in PVE because of PVP problems. With the same gear level and skill, the other pure classes can put out 10-15% more DPS than hunters. That is very significant.

    They really need to make abilities different in PVE and instanced PVP, at least the ones that are problematic.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by bendak View Post
    This is not the case at all, and Hunters are proof of that. They've been nerfed to obscurity in PVE because of PVP problems. With the same gear level and skill, the other pure classes can put out 10-15% more DPS than hunters. That is very significant.

    They really need to make abilities different in PVE and instanced PVP, at least the ones that are problematic.
    ^ This. It shouldn't be that big of an overhaul considering they don't care how world PvP goes. And yes, PvE always suffers due to PvP "imbalances."

  7. #47
    This is not the case at all, and Hunters are proof of that. They've been nerfed to obscurity in PVE because of PVP problems.
    I believe that this is the exception that proves the rule. I think this is the first time that everyone, even hunters themselves, are in agreement that one single spec of a class was responsible for completely ruining the entire experience of PvP and Blizzard's hand was forced to do something since the problem was so severe.

    Other than this I can't think of any other times PvErs suffered dps wise because of PvP. I'm probably wrong but can you think of any other instances that classes suffered in PvE because of PvP? I'm sure it's much, much more frequent the other way round.

    I think the separating PvE/PvP abilities problem is actually very difficult to solve. If you just make everything behave differently in the two environments, how to you retain the "seamless" feel of an MMO? I know that being teleported to an instanced location already undermines that but I just think that separating abilities would be a step too far even though it is the perfect solution to this problem.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Monksrus View Post
    I believe that this is the exception that proves the rule. I think this is the first time that everyone, even hunters themselves, are in agreement that one single spec of a class was responsible for completely ruining the entire experience of PvP and Blizzard's hand was forced to do something since the problem was so severe.

    Other than this I can't think of any other times PvErs suffered dps wise because of PvP. I'm probably wrong but can you think of any other instances that classes suffered in PvE because of PvP? I'm sure it's much, much more frequent the other way round.

    I think the separating PvE/PvP abilities problem is actually very difficult to solve. If you just make everything behave differently in the two environments, how to you retain the "seamless" feel of an MMO? I know that being teleported to an instanced location already undermines that but I just think that separating abilities would be a step too far even though it is the perfect solution to this problem.
    I was thinking more about the coding aspect of fitting it in rather than the semantics.

  9. #49
    Herald of the Titans DiscoGhost's Avatar
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    their first priority is pve. theyll only make pvp changes if it passes with the pve balance team most likely. hence the reason it takes so long, has to go thru two dev teams instead of one.
    You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.

  10. #50
    isnt it blatantly obvious they dont care about pvp?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Monksrus View Post
    I believe that this is the exception that proves the rule. I think this is the first time that everyone, even hunters themselves, are in agreement that one single spec of a class was responsible for completely ruining the entire experience of PvP and Blizzard's hand was forced to do something since the problem was so severe.

    Other than this I can't think of any other times PvErs suffered dps wise because of PvP. I'm probably wrong but can you think of any other instances that classes suffered in PvE because of PvP? I'm sure it's much, much more frequent the other way round.

    I think the separating PvE/PvP abilities problem is actually very difficult to solve. If you just make everything behave differently in the two environments, how to you retain the "seamless" feel of an MMO? I know that being teleported to an instanced location already undermines that but I just think that separating abilities would be a step too far even though it is the perfect solution to this problem.
    In 4.1 they buffed obliterates damage for frost death knights as one of the things to compensate and make it viable for pve. Frost was one of the worst performing pve specs in 4.0. It went to upper middle of the pack after the buff but obliterate did too much damage in pvp for their liking so they nerfed base weapon damage by 10% and frost went to lower middle of the pack...

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogar View Post
    People just need to understand that PvP is never gonna be perfectly balanced and there will always be superior classes and specs which are called Flavor of the Month.
    Blizzard do not like to nerf good performing classes straight to the ground when they turn out to be strong and powerful, they are giving them their time to shine...
    At least thats how I perceive the problem. But its certainly much less of an issue now, when the classes are getting tuned down in next major patch. I had my fun with shadow priest at the start of MoP, rogues were the best PvP class the whole vanilla.
    This so much. The game has had FOTM classessince forever. Hell, anyone who played high rated arenas in TBC probably doesn't remember meeting any comps other than RMP. As long as it's not the same class dominating for several Xpacks, they don't mind something being a bit OP (just remembered pve mages being le terrible in TBC endgame, now top). Balancing this game is hard, it WOULD be easier if we went back to the TBC days where each class only had one viable PVP spec, but I doubt anyone would want that.

    Changing one ability can bring an avalanche of collateral damage, not just to that specific class, but it might suddenly make another class "OP". Keep in mind they're not just trying to keep a little community of 1000 happy, they're dealing with MILLIONS of customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    In 4.1 they buffed obliterates damage for frost death knights as one of the things to compensate and make it viable for pve. Frost was one of the worst performing pve specs in 4.0. It went to upper middle of the pack after the buff but obliterate did too much damage in pvp for their liking so they nerfed base weapon damage by 10% and frost went to lower middle of the pack...
    In wotlk, during Ulduar, I played frost dk pvp (95% above 2k rating played UH), frost was so ridiculously bursty, you could kill anything in 3 GCDs with frost strikes. Needless to say, they nerfed it after that season
    Last edited by AnEvilForce; 2013-07-07 at 04:10 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoGhost View Post
    their first priority is pve. theyll only make pvp changes if it passes with the pve balance team most likely. hence the reason it takes so long, has to go thru two dev teams instead of one.
    Well PvE is essentially all about damage. 5 buttons to balance. So that's not an excuse for most changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volant View Post
    ^ This. It shouldn't be that big of an overhaul considering they don't care how world PvP goes. And yes, PvE always suffers due to PvP "imbalances."
    And the other way around. Prime example being DK's right now. Most defensives are terrible due to battle fatigue. Lichborne heals for 40k, AMZ absorbs about 130k and soon AMZ will be useless. They could make it so that abilities behave differently in PvE and PvE. It's easy to code for a professional developer, but they probably don't really care too much at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    isnt it blatantly obvious they dont care about pvp?
    To a certain extent perhaps. But that's not a way to look at it, especially not when we can occasionally convince them to change certain things. But I know what you're getting at.

  14. #54
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    One of the problems is that they do not want to make any big changes until a new big patch comes out. They only usually change the modifiers to things they want.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  15. #55
    What I still don't understand is why they don't just make some moves behave differently in PvP and differently in PvE. All problems solved.

  16. #56
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    I think Warlocks at the moment are pretty much balanced and whoever tries to say otherwise hasn't played a warlock lately .
    As others said before me they are trying to juggle buffs/nerfs for both pvp and pve without hurting both for a certain class/spec.

  17. #57
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    It really comes down to PvP and PvE not being separate entities. A change to one side of a class can drastically hurt (or help) the other side. In a system like this, the smallest change has to be extensively tested to make sure it doesn't drastically affect PvE or PvP. It seems like most times, when a change is made to nerf a class, something comes along later to boost PvE or PvP.

    There have also been times where Blizzard has taken an ability and only changed its effect on other players. In these situations, it requires time to recode the ability... which can take all sorts of time.

    All of this could be solved if Blizzard had separated PvE and PvP like was done in Guild Wars 1. Of course, doing that now would be tricky as their infrastructure would have to be completely changed... it would get messy and would be rather time consuming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monksrus View Post
    Other than this I can't think of any other times PvErs suffered dps wise because of PvP. I'm probably wrong but can you think of any other instances that classes suffered in PvE because of PvP? I'm sure it's much, much more frequent the other way round.
    It's not necessarily a major setback, but in the end of Cata, PvE took a hit because of the burst that came from PvE trinkets in PvP. The DS trinkets were changed to do less damage, but have a longer uptime... which in theory sounds okay for PvE, but in practice it nerfed us a bit. As an example. In fights with adds (think Yorsha'j) the trinket "Cunning of the Cruel" would be roughly 8-10% of my overall damage. After it was realized that trinkets like this were causing insane burst in PvP, the above mentioned change took effect and now the trinket worked out to roughly 2-3% of my overall damage.

    So yeah, not bad overall, but it did hurt us a bit.


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  18. #58
    Also how do you determine "blatantly" OP? There have only been a few times that this has happened. Im talking 3.0.2 Ret and season 5 DKs. Even all the Hunter QQ this season is no where even close to those.
    Last edited by Lilly32; 2013-07-07 at 08:00 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Erto View Post
    Because Stampede wasn't the only thing that made Hunters OP. The amount of instant CC they have at the moment is stupid. Now, BM gets the pet stun and MM gets Silencing Shot.
    No Bm gets to pick 1 cc talent and mm gets silencing and a 1 cc talent. All thats happening is mm is gaining more cc while bm is being killed. Its not going to really fix anything but that hunters will finally be playing a spec thats cc'able.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    Also how do you determine "blatantly" OP? There have only been a few times that this has happened. Im talking 3.0.2 Ret and season 5 DKs. Even all the Hunter QQ this season is no where even close to those.
    I dunno about that since hunters have stayed op all of mop so far and those other classes only had 1 patch before being cut down. 5.0 Best comp? kfc, 5.1 kfc, 5.2 thug cleave, 5.3...... You get the point
    Last edited by wow; 2013-07-07 at 08:07 PM.

  20. #60
    Actually, thinking about it now it sounds incredibly difficult if not impossible to properly balance PvE and PvP if abilities behave the same in both environments. They must have a good reason for keeping it like this. God knows what it is though :S

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