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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    problem is not with the cookie cutter, problem is with literal lack of choice for ret and prot.
    ...which means the spec is cookie cutter. Fact of the matter is, no matter how many choices you have there will always be a talent that is superior. Which often makes it appear as if there is no choice at all.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    ...which means the spec is cookie cutter. Fact of the matter is, no matter how many choices you have there will always be a talent that is superior. Which often makes it appear as if there is no choice at all.
    ...which means spec has no choice whatsover.
    which is fail, by definition, and by design.
    You dont get to choose because you dont choose between rotten apple and an apple, you always pick an apple.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Cookie cutter is the best spec, as in, where you the best talents. Well, the problem is, ret can't choose to begin with. You can't choose SoL over LAotL not because laotl is top dog, bit because SoL sucks as a talent for ret. Even more so with PoJ , its completely unviable . Same goes for other paladin tiers in regards to ret and prot.
    Sure as sure

  3. #43
    Ironic that we're forced into some very tight spec choices given that half the talent tree consists of former Retribution-exclusive abilities.

    Personally I use both BoG and FoJ depending on my own team's comp and our opponent's comp and whether I'm in arenas or a BG. There are times when having a non-dispellable slow at range is extremely useful. Having that option taken away for a hard cast ability that shares everything but a DR with an existing talent (Repentance) is lousy design. If they want paladins to have access to a Fear that badly, replace Repentance or add a glyph that converts it to a Fear effect. If BoG is truly that underwhelming, buff BoG.

    We fought for years and expansions to get a slow, and now Blizzard wants to take it away from us in less than an expansion. There's a thread on the PTR discussion forum protesting the removal of BoG. If we have issues with BoG's usefulness compared to FoJ, we should take the suggestions there and on the front page for the devs.

  4. #44
    They should make it baseline for all specs, because it's useful only for kiting , in pvp fist is more useful, bit for solo mob grinding, old content, , things like this it sure helped me out a lot, i use it for prot (because bosses are un stunable.
    Let's face it, repentence is useless if you have a rogue arround, and it should have been changed to a fear, not burden of guilt.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Camaris View Post
    Ironic that we're forced into some very tight spec choices given that half the talent tree consists of former Retribution-exclusive abilities.

    Personally I use both BoG and FoJ depending on my own team's comp and our opponent's comp and whether I'm in arenas or a BG. There are times when having a non-dispellable slow at range is extremely useful. Having that option taken away for a hard cast ability that shares everything but a DR with an existing talent (Repentance) is lousy design. If they want paladins to have access to a Fear that badly, replace Repentance or add a glyph that converts it to a Fear effect. If BoG is truly that underwhelming, buff BoG.

    We fought for years and expansions to get a slow, and now Blizzard wants to take it away from us in less than an expansion. There's a thread on the PTR discussion forum protesting the removal of BoG. If we have issues with BoG's usefulness compared to FoJ, we should take the suggestions there and on the front page for the devs.
    Sadly, out talent tree is more than 50% former Ret abilities, more like 70%+, if you exclude the last tier which is brand new. Actually, Speed of Light is the only ability in the talent tree that Ret did not previously have access to, everything else is either new or could be reached in the prot or holy tree while being Ret. Not a single iconic Holy or Prot ability made it to live as a talent (Ardent Defender was scrapped as a telent during Beta).

    To summarize: our talent tree has 7 former Ret abilities, 1 holy, and 0 prot...

  6. #46
    Everyone suggest that they bake Burden of Guilt into Seal of Justice. Badoom: real choice between seals.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    To summarize: our talent tree has 7 former Ret abilities, 1 holy, and 0 prot...
    Fist of Justice was 2nd tier Prot. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Everyone suggest that they bake Burden of Guilt into Seal of Justice. Badoom: real choice between seals.
    It's being suggested quite a bit on both the Paladin forums and the PTR discussion thread, but more voices = better.

  8. #48
    I would miss BoG. That new talent the propose is more of a potential glyph than a talent, I think.

  9. #49
    I don't really see why this matters. Almost every class has talents they have to take, and BoG was useless in 99% of situations, and FoJ is better in 100% of situations. As far as I'm concerned it just means less bad rets taking the wrong talent and then complaining they aren't succeeding.

    I'd say just about every class has a min/max for talents in PvP, whether you want to sit there saying that Paladins don't get a choice in talents, if you want to be a competitive player then most classes don't.

    Resto Druids have 1 talent they can switch around.
    Hunters have 1 talent they can switch around.
    Warriors have 1 (maybe 2 in very specific setups) talent they can switch around.
    Monks have 1 (maybe 2 depending on what you're fighting) talent they can switch around.

    Just to name a few, so like I said, most classes don't have much variety when it comes to PvP talents. Some are just flat out better than others, and FoJ is just better than BoG in 100% of situations.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    I don't really see why this matters. Almost every class has talents they have to take, and BoG was useless in 99% of situations, and FoJ is better in 100% of situations. As far as I'm concerned it just means less bad rets taking the wrong talent and then complaining they aren't succeeding.

    I'd say just about every class has a min/max for talents in PvP, whether you want to sit there saying that Paladins don't get a choice in talents, if you want to be a competitive player then most classes don't.

    Resto Druids have 1 talent they can switch around.
    Hunters have 1 talent they can switch around.
    Warriors have 1 (maybe 2 in very specific setups) talent they can switch around.
    Monks have 1 (maybe 2 depending on what you're fighting) talent they can switch around.

    Just to name a few, so like I said, most classes don't have much variety when it comes to PvP talents. Some are just flat out better than others, and FoJ is just better than BoG in 100% of situations.
    I don't see why you're proposing we keep low profile about it.

    Such a talent system is fail.
    the whole point of these new talent was supposed that you would have a plenty of interesting and as close as possible to equal choices.

    Ret and Prot dont even HAVE to choose, there's nothing to choose from.
    paladin talents are bland, uninspiring, and not imaginative in the slightest, 3/4 of these talents are former paladin abilities to begin with.
    This is fail.
    This is not what it's meant to be.
    Sure as sure

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Everyone suggest that they bake Burden of Guilt into Seal of Justice. Badoom: real choice between seals.
    Would be nice hear this for all spec, but only Rep have it...

    So if u play as Holy or Prot u dont have a slow... make Seal of Justice for all spec and change Burden of Guilt...

  12. #52
    IMO burden of guilt was useless, glad they removed it.
    Tinker + Alchemist in a single class:
    Tank spec: robotics, steampunk hammers/chainsaws, grappling hooks and heavy machinery.
    Melee dps spec: doping yourself with chems and tossing vicious acids on the enemies.
    Ranged dps: rockets, lasers, TNT critters and explosives, shrink rays and sapper mines.
    Healing spec: chemical sprays, needles, exploding flasks and other chemical type abilities to heal.

  13. #53
    I wonder why so strong opinions that burden is useless. It has some niches.

    Its still the best talent for a ret+healer 2v2 comp on high ratings (2k+). Fist of justice is much weaker in that case and almost never used.

  14. #54
    After waiting for a slow for paladins for years, I would really hate to loose this option in excahnge for an almost-clone for another talent in the same tier.
    Why not make 3 talents that turn your judgement blue, red, and green, respectively and call it a day - that would take care of cookie cutter specs as well since all three would be equally usefull (that is, useless).
    That proposed talent is almost the same as just reducing the number of talents to choose from in that tier to two for all everyone who isn't playing arena as holy with a specific set up.
    While technically less people would choose the same ('cookie cutter') talent, more people will (have to) choose the same thing, since those only appear different for the statisitcs.

  15. #55
    For all I care, they could've brought back judgement debuffs, while also incepting an 5-10 second cd for changing the seal. Judgement debuffs could be benefical exclusively to paladin, and not dps-related, as in - judging with Justice on would slow the target by 30%, with righteousness - slow attack/and-or casting speed, with Insight - put a heal-related debuff, and with Truth - decrease enemy' stats by 5\10%.

    All of the debuffs would have to last for 5-10 seconds(to match the cd between seal swaps) to prevent seal debuffs stacking, and voila - we would have useful seals again, seal swapping would be brought back, versatility would improve, utility would improve, viability and synergy would improve!

    But the bottom line is: nobody gives a flying frag, so who am I kidding.
    Last edited by Storm the Sorrow; 2013-07-13 at 08:34 PM. Reason: tread fether
    Sure as sure

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