Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ...
6
7
8
  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    If it doesn't happen in game it doesn't count. Why? Because Blizzard have "forgotten" the out of game lore plenty of times before.

    The Horde can't be shown weaker because they'll need the same in game presence for quests and flight points for example. The Horde won't be kicked out of Pandaria despite the damage they've done because that wouldn't be fair.

    And that's leaving aside the trustworthiness of said tweets. It wasn't that long ago that the Blues came out with tweest and so on telling us the Alliance would be getting story in MoP, they'd have their moments of glory, their times of fist-bumpiness.

    Do you honestly think getting roped into the Hordes Rebellion storyline counts as lore progression and development for the Alliance or any of its factions? That Anduin going neutral and becoming a Horde apologist helps showcase the Alliance? That having Alliance players beat up shopkeepers makes for a fist bump moment of glory?

    Blizzard obviously thinks so. A lot of players - many of whom are neutral/play both sides or are even Horde players - think otherwise.

    So - if the Horde does come out of this "weaker"....but with the same in game presence as the Alliance, the same number of flightpoints, the same quest goals with the same ability to progress their anti-big bad agenda next Xpac and no loss of territory and a peace treaty that recognises their acquisitions....would that count as "weaker"?

    What about if they withdraw from Azshara? Does that count if a later story then retcons that because the author "forgot" as it wasn't in game? How many times did Varian have to get cured before it became lore as one example - simply because it wasn't shown in game therefore didn't exist for the various writers?

    EJL
    Just because something isn't shown in game doesn't mean it didn't happen in the overall story. Disagree with that if you want to.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    You mean the hugely overworked Sanctum that was badly maintaineed and for which the Magister in charge gave you a warning telling you it was likely to fail due to overwork and poor maintenance? You mean THAT Sanctum? The Sanctum that subsequently blew up?
    Yea, the person who said he was too "busy entertaining our... most pleasant... dwarven guest." Guess who that guest was? 1 of the spies. You investigate the explosion and find incriminating documents regarding the sabotage which point to that "dwarven guest". After which, they send you to kill the spies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Her agenda was she needed troops on this side of the ocean. Any pretence at anything else got dropped when she needed troops for Northrend.
    Just completely ignore her torment over failing to defend Quel'thalas. Arthas purposely kept her consciousness intact so she would witness firsthand its destruction. This was one of the main reasons she hated Arthas so much.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-09 at 01:26 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Just because something isn't shown in game doesn't mean it didn't happen in the overall story. Disagree with that if you want to.
    as much as my personal history makes me dislike the option I have to agree with florena, heck even things SHOWN in game aren't always canonical lore (if they were then absolutely every single person in the game would be the personal champion of every racial leader in their faction favored over all others...yeah...the impossibility there should be obvious enough reason why that isn't canon). really all this complaining over the alliance helping the horde is childish, if you don't the horde loses a relatively small amount of its forces and the rest of those forces are then stuck serving garrosh due to their invasion plan being shot in the foot before it can start, you then have the invasion that varian ALREADY COMMITTED TO back in 5.1 with all the remaining forces of the horde that you seem so sure you will just wipe out in a weakened state using the even more reinforced defenses to crush the alliance invasion. you then have no diplomatic goodwill, you have no reason for horde to withdraw from captured or contested territory, you have no reason for ANYTHING the alliance can gain from assisting the horde to actually happen...talen please think logically for a moment instead of continuing to try and martyr the alliance as disrespected because you dislike the current storyline.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Yea, the person who said he was too "busy entertaining our... most pleasant... dwarven guest." Guess who that guest was? 1 of the spies. You investigate the explosion and find incriminating documents regarding the sabotage which point to that "dwarven guest". After which, they send you to kill the spies.


    Just completely ignore her torment over failing to defend Quel'thalas. Arthas purposely kept her consciousness intact so she would witness firsthand its destruction. This was one of the main reasons she hated Arthas so much.
    the dwarf "ambassador" did indeed sabotage the sanctum, and if you follow the ghostlands quest line all the way sylvanas shows, for the first time in WoW, emotion. emotion that's shown again in the end of the silverpine forest quest line during the negotiations that the worgen won't pass into silverpine. despite the hate she receives sylvanas DOES have emotions besides hate, she is capable of doing things for reasons beyond simple scheming.
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

  4. #144
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8,016
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Just because something isn't shown in game doesn't mean it didn't happen in the overall story. Disagree with that if you want to.
    The problem is not it happening.

    The problem is it being retconned out and/or ignored simply because it isn't in the game.

    If it isn't shown, isn't referenced and everyone acts as if it never happened...did it actually really happen? It didn't with Varian. His "cure" lasted only until the next writer did a story about him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Just completely ignore her torment over failing to defend Quel'thalas. Arthas purposely kept her consciousness intact so she would witness firsthand its destruction. This was one of the main reasons she hated Arthas so much.
    You seem to feel this makes a difference.

    She needed troops. She got them and she played on the BElfs ties with and feelings for her to get what she wanted. She wanted vengeance and she was willing to see the BElfs destroyed to get it.

    Or did you think she was bluffing when she threatened to withdraw her troops and leave the BElfs to face the Scourge. Sylvanas valued her vengeance more than she valued the people and land she died trying to protect.

    EJL

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The problem is not it happening.

    The problem is it being retconned out and/or ignored simply because it isn't in the game.

    If it isn't shown, isn't referenced and everyone acts as if it never happened...did it actually really happen? It didn't with Varian. His "cure" lasted only until the next writer did a story about him.

    EJL
    you realize even if it's in game it can be subject to retcon don't you, the mini lore book actively STATING that sargeras was corrupted by the eredar is still in the inn at ratchet. if your concern is simply that if it isn't stated in game it won't be kept in the lore then that's a large portion of WoW's lore gone already.
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    You seem to feel this makes a difference.

    She needed troops. She got them and she played on the BElfs ties with and feelings for her to get what she wanted. She wanted vengeance and she was willing to see the BElfs destroyed to get it.
    That must be why Sylvanas breaks down and sings Lament of the Highborne in memorium of the fall of Quel'thalas after having her necklace returned to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Or did you think she was bluffing when she threatened to withdraw her troops and leave the BElfs to face the Scourge. Sylvanas valued her vengeance more than she valued the people and land she died trying to protect.
    What makes you think it wasn't a bluff? Also, this happened years after her offering aid to Quel'thalas, when the kingdom had stabilized.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-09 at 01:58 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  7. #147
    Would make for a great capital city if they bring in High Elves as an Alliance Faction.

    What's the Lore?

    "Greetings High Elf rookie!"
    Last edited by IdTheDemon; 2013-07-09 at 01:59 AM.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The problem is not it happening.

    The problem is it being retconned out and/or ignored simply because it isn't in the game.

    If it isn't shown, isn't referenced and everyone acts as if it never happened...did it actually really happen? It didn't with Varian. His "cure" lasted only until the next writer did a story about him.



    You seem to feel this makes a difference.

    She needed troops. She got them and she played on the BElfs ties with and feelings for her to get what she wanted. She wanted vengeance and she was willing to see the BElfs destroyed to get it.

    Or did you think she was bluffing when she threatened to withdraw her troops and leave the BElfs to face the Scourge. Sylvanas valued her vengeance more than she valued the people and land she died trying to protect.

    EJL
    Not sure what you're talking about with Varian being cured multiple times, but I really don't get your arguement. He was 'cured' of the split personality thing in the comics as I understand it, suffered from side effects of it in Wolfheart, where he started to get better and that threat carried onto his short story where he made amends with Anduin and it was fully put to rest. You're saying it doesn't make sense for the Alliance characters, lore wise, to work with Vol'jin because the Horde will just be stronger and united when this is over. I point out that the civil war will leave them WEAKER because both sides are ultimately horde deaths in that conflict, and you say 'oh it doesn't matter because blizz is just going to forget it happened and retcon it out?' You're basically saying this present story doesn't make sense because Blizzard is going to mess it up in the future. Even if you're right and blizz drops the ball, the lore characters don't know that. Non game stuff makes it into game lore all the time, such as characters like Krasus and Rhonin showing up.

    Even things in game can be retconned, like the whole forsaken fighting kirin tor in silverpine thing that's supposedly just an oversight from the quest developers, to the Onyxia chain being retconned in the WoW comic.
    Last edited by Malzra; 2013-07-09 at 08:29 AM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Infiltrated? Yes - stupidly, out of character for them and with no reason given to do so but yes.
    Sabotaged? No.
    Its not terribly out of character for Night Elves, they are bunch of retards.
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  10. #150
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    5,223
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    If anything tweets from blizz reps indicate the Horde will NOT be coming out of this civil war strong and united, and that they will have to give up conquored lands, even if it's not shown in game doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the story.
    Well the direct quote from Kosak during the April Q&A pretty much supports this.

    "This is something we struggle with, because after Cataclysm we seriously question the time-investment of re-doing old zones. Presumably, from a lore standpoint, the Horde is going to have to back down from areas on the edge of conquest (particularly Ashenvale.) But we don't want to re-do that zone - it's an important Horde level-up area."

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Well the direct quote from Kosak during the April Q&A pretty much supports this.

    "This is something we struggle with, because after Cataclysm we seriously question the time-investment of re-doing old zones. Presumably, from a lore standpoint, the Horde is going to have to back down from areas on the edge of conquest (particularly Ashenvale.) But we don't want to re-do that zone - it's an important Horde level-up area."
    Doesn't the Alliance currently control Ashenvale? I'm wondering how they would begin to show the Horde backing down in-game since we don't have any zones being seriously contested. Horde won Andorhal, Southern Barrens and Azshara. Alliance control Ashenvale and Gilneas. I guess Stonetalon, maybe.

  12. #152
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Hanseatic City of Lübeck
    Posts
    9,137
    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore View Post
    Doesn't the Alliance currently control Ashenvale? I'm wondering how they would begin to show the Horde backing down in-game since we don't have any zones being seriously contested. Horde won Andorhal, Southern Barrens and Azshara. Alliance control Ashenvale and Gilneas. I guess Stonetalon, maybe.
    Ashenvale is more or less split 50/50 right now, the zones the horde would relinquish would be most likely be all of Ashenvale, the forsaken presence in Arathi, Hinterlands and whatever is currently fighting at Gilneas, their small camps in Desolace, much of Stonetalon and maybe their settlements in Feralas.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •