Thread: Dying breed

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  1. #121
    To be fair for the Ra-Den example: You probably don't touch the orbs. If you had to dps Ra-Den/cracklings/orbs your dps would drop.

    And the Lei Shen example: we should be better than rogues. They don't do well for AoE on targets that die quickly and we also should have trinkets+pot+TF for our MEGA BitW rip because of the long period of time before our execute range without dpsing.

    I'm not saying we're in a bad place because we're fine. I also often top dps and we have a rogue/warlock/hunter in our raid. I'm just saying that those fights kind of highlight our strengths (high single target dps, good AoE (still not great, but good), powerful rip extensions for execute, and decent cleave damage - cracklings - and only decent cleave damage if you have a warlock . . . maybe a rogue, but redirect sucks compared to soul swap).

  2. #122
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themessiah View Post
    On the last two fights of this tier, Lei Shen and Ra-den, I'm inside the top 2 for dps. On Lei-Shen we have a lock which is nearly always 20-30k ahead of me. After that there's me, followed by the hunters. The rogues don't get close. On Ra-den there's the tank, me, then the rogues. The rogues, of whom we have 2/3, are beneath me by about 20k. Our item level is approximately 545. Again on twins it's usually me versus the hunters for the number 1 spot - I don't remember the rogues being challenging. Perhaps our rogues are bad, or shucks, maybe I'm really good.
    I'm not sure whether you are 10 or 25 (guessing 25 with 3 rogues). Myself play 10 man and on fights like lei shen (currently progressing on), my tranq is almost needed for phase 3, this means speccing HotW. I know sims put hotw and doc close in terms of dps (last time i checked it was 3%?), but my dps is substantially lower using Hotw over doc. I will often place consistently high using DoC, but will only place high when I get lucky with trinket procs using Hotw. I can't see this being a problem in 25 man as normally you will have enough raid CDs for the ferals not to need Hotw.

    I don't know how other ferals are with Hotw, but I personally don't like it at all.
    Moosie <After Hours> : Feral / Restoration

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Themessiah View Post
    On the last two fights of this tier, Lei Shen and Ra-den, I'm inside the top 2 for dps. On Lei-Shen we have a lock which is nearly always 20-30k ahead of me. After that there's me, followed by the hunters. The rogues don't get close. On Ra-den there's the tank, me, then the rogues. The rogues, of whom we have 2/3, are beneath me by about 20k. Our item level is approximately 545. Again on twins it's usually me versus the hunters for the number 1 spot - I don't remember the rogues being challenging. Perhaps our rogues are bad, or shucks, maybe I'm really good.

    It's not really a fair test however - there are times when I'll have to stop and channel tranquillity. Because as much as it apparently sucks (see earlier) it really seems to help the healing team on the last phase of Ra-den and last phase of Lei Shen. Moreover, I’m not getting things like tricks of the trade on me either; at least, not on the pull anyway.

    The highest recent rank I've achieved when looking only at ferals was something like top 25. Of course, only looking at ferals doesn't really say how the spec is doing in general, but only how I am doing by comparison to others that play my spec. When I compare myself to others who get close to achieving their classes theoretical maximum, I'm in the dust. By way of comfort I wonder to myself, those others that achieve their class’s theoretical maximum, how often do they achieve it? I get top 2 on the fights I mentioned every week. They’re good fights for ferals, and appeal to our strengths. How often do the mages, shamans and locks really achieve those numbers we see them able to get in Simc? Is it as often as I am able to hit 240/250k on Ra-den? I do it weekly. Do they?

    One thing that bothers me is that our effort to dps ratio is terrible. If rogues are really as simple to play as was suggested earlier in this thread and for their effort they achieve superior or even competitive dps, then I do feel I am not getting a fair deal as feral. A couple of pages back I talked about the amount of abilities ferals have to think about at any one given time. That was without the intricacies of the spec (shred versus mangle), and things like energy regeneration and combo points.

    I’m told that when it comes to theoretical maximum dps that ferals are middle of the pack. However, when it comes to “effort” or “error margins” or “concentration” (each is different) ferals have the hardest time. If I had a wish for feral, it’s that we would see dps proportionate to the effort and skill involved in playing the spec.

    I suspect the reason we’re behind is because we’re very hard to buff without having consequences for pvp. A buff to bleeds causes tears. A buff to auto attack is just passive free damage. A buff to savage roar buffs both bleeds (which cause tears) and the free damage. A buff to shred or mangle means that when we’re on a target we really hit damn hard; and we’re mobile, so we’re often all over our target. More energy isn’t helpful because often we’re already energy capped, and it’ll make berserk less meaningful. Additional combo point storage could be interesting, as could making the combo points non target specific; but then switching in pvp would, you guessed it, drown us in tears.

    I don’t think feral is dead, or dying. I think it’s a remarkably hard spec to master and do excellently with. I think the major reward from playing feral comes from the knowledge that you’re getting it right, when you do in fact get it right. I know I’m “getting it right” because I rank quite highly across ferals, and often top in my raid.

    But if we are truly a theoretical middle of the pack dps, and those other classes perform their numbers with the consistency with which I perform mine, then we ought to see the effort ferals make rewarded in terms of having higher consistent theoretical maximum damage.

    I say this because I believe that effort, where possible, ought to be rewarded.

    Long live feral.


    I agree but it's also pretty apparent you are in a 25 man. Feral is in a much better spot in 25 man. Usually they are allowed to ignore the mechanics Feral is terrible at and it's not as necessary for every DPS to have a powerful raid CD. Agree completely that PvP has been a major problem for the PvE Ferals. I'm fairly certain it was the cause of the 5.2 buff getting reverted in the middle of the night. I think the core issue though is that Feral still has a scaling problem and without buffs every patch they fall behind.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post

    I agree but it's also pretty apparent you are in a 25 man. Feral is in a much better spot in 25 man. Usually they are allowed to ignore the mechanics Feral is terrible at and it's not as necessary for every DPS to have a powerful raid CD. Agree completely that PvP has been a major problem for the PvE Ferals. I'm fairly certain it was the cause of the 5.2 buff getting reverted in the middle of the night. I think the core issue though is that Feral still has a scaling problem and without buffs every patch they fall behind.
    There's also the fact that PvP gear is basically equivalent to PvE gear two patches ago, so if things are done to compensate for poor scaling, it makes PvP'ers in their 496 gear that much stronger.

    Other games have much better solutions for balancing PvP/PvE, don't know why Blizzard can't come up with one.

  5. #125
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Other games have much better solutions for balancing PvP/PvE, don't know why Blizzard can't come up with one.
    If they do change the way they balance pve and pvp, it would have to be with a new expansion, while they could balance it, they probably thought pvp power would fix pvp. They were so wrong but it seems they know that now with them changing pvp every patch they can at the moment, in a desperate attempt to fix it. Wouldn't be suprised to see seperate balanced pve and pvp specs of each spec in 6.0
    Moosie <After Hours> : Feral / Restoration

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