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  1. #1

    Nobody Wins in War.

    Talk, talk, talk. Always you speak; never do you listen. You ignore the lessons of Pandaria!

    I'm seeing so much discussion about whether the Alliance or the Horde wins this war. Well I'm setting up camp with the people who understand. The whole point of this expansion was that there is not always a winner and a loser in a fight. No single faction wins this war. Not the Alliance. Not Vol'jin and his cohort. Not Garrosh and his "True horde". Certainly not the Pandaren and their homeland. Everybody lost something. Nobody really gained anything. At best, an opportunity to start over and make things right and to work together has arisen but at worst nothing has changed.

    I've just started reading the Vol'jin book (which is fantastically written so far and very clever) and he plays a board game with his human counterpart where the objective is to use your pieces to destroy all the enemy pieces. If one person sacrifices most of his forces to win then he is considered to have also lost. It is a game where winning is subjective and it is no accident that such a game was created to tell this story.

    The Alliance was broken by Garrosh. The Horde was broken by Garrosh. Pandaria was broken by our war. Ultimately, neither Alliance nor Horde was strong enough to stop him alone. It takes massive sacrifices from both sides to end Garrosh's reign. Beyond a simple bodycount; consider the lumber, the stone, the gold and the food that was required to fuel each factions war machine?

    The question we were asked at the start of the expansion was: What is worth fighting for? Have we truly answered that question? I'm looking at a torn up Vale and two heavily worn out faction and countless civilian, neutral refugees of war and all I can say is that it doesn't feel like anything could justify such proud and vain displays of strength in the name of "freedom". A freedom to do what? Continue killing each other?

    The war will end. The cycle of hatred will begin anew. A new Warchief for yet another new Horde. A unified Alliance under the banner of the High King. We will all return, after two expansions of development, stronger and yet weaker for our efforts. But Pandaria will be left scarred beyond repair. The Tillers, The Golden Lotus, The Shado-Pan and even The Klaxxi are all unbalanced now. They did not care for our conflict when we arrived. Do you think they will care for it after we leave? I doubt it. They will only care that we came and all we brought was destruction and hatred and war.

    At the end of it all... It's not about who wins. It's about who loses. Try to remember the lessons of Pandaria whilst bickering over which side Blizzard loves more. Personally, I'm quite ashamed to be a part of either faction right now.

  2. #2
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
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    I can tell you OP, nobody actually cares about learning a mature lesson of humility here, the playerbase isn't mature enough to understand it. All they care about is there side winning.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    At the end of it all... It's not about who wins. It's about who loses. Try to remember the lessons of Pandaria whilst bickering over which side Blizzard loves more. Personally, I'm quite ashamed to be a part of either faction right now.
    They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
    Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.
    They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
    They fell with their faces to the foe.
    They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
    Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
    At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
    We will remember them


    Lest we forget.
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  4. #4
    its what people/humans do im afraid. we walk about from one place to another and destroy everything (irl ;p).. wow is dead/dying so is planet earth.... there can be no victory....

  5. #5
    The Patient Thornvale's Avatar
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    Like the Orc and Human in the MoP trailer, the Horde and Alliance have certainly had their eyes opened somewhat. What I've really liked about this expansion's story is that it's been helped along so well by Wrathion's ongoing commentary, and that both factions entered Pandaria so damn ignorant and have actually learnt something along the way.

    Some people only seem to care about who has the biggest cities and tanks and armies. There's more to both factions than that.

  6. #6
    Are you really going to listen to a bunch of fat fluffy panda-bears?

    "War is the fire that tempers men's souls. The man who will not resort to violence must find his own ways to manipulate men."
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦

  7. #7
    That's a cute euphemism of Horde rebels getting their butt kicked and the Alliance winning the fourth war.

  8. #8
    Without war there is no peace

  9. #9
    Oh man, you have seen the light! So deep!

  10. #10
    And this is why MoP is my favorite expansion!!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zambooka View Post
    Like the Orc and Human in the MoP trailer, the Horde and Alliance have certainly had their eyes opened somewhat. What I've really liked about this expansion's story is that it's been helped along so well by Wrathion's ongoing commentary, and that both factions entered Pandaria so damn ignorant and have actually learnt something along the way.

    Some people only seem to care about who has the biggest cities and tanks and armies. There's more to both factions than that.
    I love how things ended with Wrathion. Or, at least, how they seem to have ended.

    Ultimately, he was the only person from beyond the mists with a noble intent this expansion. In many ways he represents the player base... He learnt nothing whilst he was here. He was too busy being caught up in his own agenda to realise his folly. True strength comes from within. Pride, always Pride, was the true cause of his defeat. Because of his Pride he walked away from Pandaria having learnt nothing and gained nothing and so too shall many players. It resonates with human nature that listening and not speaking is the path to wisdom and that wisdom leads to strength (which leads to courage #zelda).

  12. #12
    You make the fatal assumption that there is an actual Horde vs Alliance war going on this expansion, you have fallen for blizzard's misdirection.

    They promised us Horde vs Alliance action but really what we got was Horde + Alliance vs Garrosh and his "true horde".

    In other words, the same old "Lets work together to save the world, friendship is magic!" garbage they have been feeding us for a long time now.

    At the end of this expansion there will be no victor, the horde and alliance will (begrudgingly) work together to defeat Garrosh, some snarky comments and empty threats will be made to keep up the facade of tension, and we will be back where we started. Same shit different package.
    Last edited by Redmage; 2013-07-10 at 07:38 PM.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Redmage View Post
    You make the fatal assumption that there is an actual Horde vs Alliance war going on this expansion, you have fallen for blizzard's misdirection.

    They promised us Horde vs Alliance action but really what we got was Horde + Alliance vs Garrosh and his "true horde".

    In other words, the same old "Lets work together to save the world, friendship is magic!" garbage they have been feeding us for a long time now.
    I agree next expansion should be lich king again

  14. #14
    The Patient Thornvale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    I love how things ended with Wrathion. Or, at least, how they seem to have ended.

    Ultimately, he was the only person from beyond the mists with a noble intent this expansion. In many ways he represents the player base... He learnt nothing whilst he was here. He was too busy being caught up in his own agenda to realise his folly. True strength comes from within. Pride, always Pride, was the true cause of his defeat. Because of his Pride he walked away from Pandaria having learnt nothing and gained nothing and so too shall many players. It resonates with human nature that listening and not speaking is the path to wisdom and that wisdom leads to strength (which leads to courage #zelda).
    Yeah. Wrathion was a likeable contradiction to the peaceful ways of the Pandaren without necessarily being a bad guy. The other side of the coin, as it were. Blizzard did a great job with him, in my opinion.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    I'm seeing so much discussion about whether the Alliance or the Horde wins this war. Well I'm setting up camp with the people who understand. The whole point of this expansion was that there is not always a winner and a loser in a fight. No single faction wins this war. Not the Alliance. Not Vol'jin and his cohort. Not Garrosh and his "True horde". Certainly not the Pandaren and their homeland. Everybody lost something. Nobody really gained anything. At best, an opportunity to start over and make things right and to work together has arisen but at worst nothing has changed.

    I've just started reading the Vol'jin book (which is fantastically written so far and very clever) and he plays a board game with his human counterpart where the objective is to use your pieces to destroy all the enemy pieces. If one person sacrifices most of his forces to win then he is considered to have also lost. It is a game where winning is subjective and it is no accident that such a game was created to tell this story.

    The Alliance was broken by Garrosh. The Horde was broken by Garrosh. Pandaria was broken by our war. Ultimately, neither Alliance nor Horde was strong enough to stop him alone. It takes massive sacrifices from both sides to end Garrosh's reign. Beyond a simple bodycount; consider the lumber, the stone, the gold and the food that was required to fuel each factions war machine?

    The question we were asked at the start of the expansion was: What is worth fighting for? Have we truly answered that question? I'm looking at a torn up Vale and two heavily worn out faction and countless civilian, neutral refugees of war and all I can say is that it doesn't feel like anything could justify such proud and vain displays of strength in the name of "freedom". A freedom to do what? Continue killing each other?

    The war will end. The cycle of hatred will begin anew. A new Warchief for yet another new Horde. A unified Alliance under the banner of the High King. We will all return, after two expansions of development, stronger and yet weaker for our efforts. But Pandaria will be left scarred beyond repair. The Tillers, The Golden Lotus, The Shado-Pan and even The Klaxxi are all unbalanced now. They did not care for our conflict when we arrived. Do you think they will care for it after we leave? I doubt it. They will only care that we came and all we brought was destruction and hatred and war.

    At the end of it all... It's not about who wins. It's about who loses. Try to remember the lessons of Pandaria whilst bickering over which side Blizzard loves more. Personally, I'm quite ashamed to be a part of either faction right now.

    Hey OP say it with me V-I-D-E-O-G-A-M-E ..............I dont even know what to think about this post. I mean are you serious or just trolling? Like I give a crap about digital Pixels dying. You're are a strange one.
    Last edited by ManOluck; 2013-07-10 at 08:10 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Redmage View Post
    In other words, the same old "Lets work together to save the world, friendship is magic!" garbage they have been feeding us for a long time now.
    Of course, in the next expansion... the horde and alliance leaders will all be killed the the Legion. Cities will be burned. And there wont be factions left. They will infect us with hatred for our own people... and we will all be alone with no chat, no AH, no chat, or Arenas, BGs. No guilds. Nothing faction related will remain. It will be us against the broken world. Raids of well organized demons will come to kill us and they will take our loot. Rez timer will be every Tuesday.

    Its a game, every game has the player pitted against a foe. The "villain". Friendship or not, the genre is the player against the bosses. Us against Lolth, Sauron, Mother Brain, Gannon... If during world war II when the allied forces were fighting the Axis forces, if suddenly an dominating alien force were to descend on earth and the fate of our world depended on us working together, would we have?

    Think Enemy Mine ... Think Dragon Ball Z even, How often do mortal enemies band together to defeat the larger enemy?

    This is the whole point of this expansion. Mantid vs Pandaren... both grow and improve due to their conflict. And in the end its ourselves and our own negative inner cancer that ends up being the downfall of one or the other. The honorable view is to see your enemy as a way to grow. To thank them for being there to help you grow. That when true conflict comes... you will be stronger because of it.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Concequence View Post
    Of course, in the next expansion... the horde and alliance leaders will all be killed the the Legion. Cities will be burned. And there wont be factions left. They will infect us with hatred for our own people... and we will all be alone with no chat, no AH, no chat, or Arenas, BGs. No guilds. Nothing faction related will remain. It will be us against the broken world. Raids of well organized demons will come to kill us and they will take our loot. Rez timer will be every Tuesday.

    Its a game, every game has the player pitted against a foe. The "villain". Friendship or not, the genre is the player against the bosses. Us against Lolth, Sauron, Mother Brain, Gannon... If during world war II when the allied forces were fighting the Axis forces, if suddenly an dominating alien force were to descend on earth and the fate of our world depended on us working together, would we have?

    Think Enemy Mine ... Think Dragon Ball Z even, How often do mortal enemies band together to defeat the larger enemy?

    This is the whole point of this expansion. Mantid vs Pandaren... both grow and improve due to their conflict. And in the end its ourselves and our own negative inner cancer that ends up being the downfall of one or the other. The honorable view is to see your enemy as a way to grow. To thank them for being there to help you grow. That when true conflict comes... you will be stronger because of it.
    Did you even read my post? Because I honestly have no idea what you are rambling about. My objection is that we were promised something, an old school horde vs alliance storyline, and we what we got was the exact opposite: horde and alliance working together to defeat a common enemy (Garrosh), the same story they've been using since the end of WC3.
    Last edited by Redmage; 2013-07-10 at 08:35 PM.

    Slaying 8bit dragons with 6 pixel long swords since 1987.
    [Pokemon Y Friend Code: 1521-3726-7197]

  18. #18
    I disagree, Wrathion made out like a bandit.

    He built a small fortune almost instantly in Cataclysm with his army of assasins during Cataclysm. Had us loot and raid Mogu vaults, Sha Essences and Demi-Titan Hearts for him without lifting a finger. His agents are all over Pandaria witch makes me think he has the wealth to put out a very large payroll. He is preparing for something big, lucky for us he's aiming it at the Legion itself.

  19. #19
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgRQ View Post
    And this is why MoP is my favorite expansion!!
    Ditto. There's actually a message to be found in it all, and it's funny to see how the Alliance and the Horde, factions which are used to fixing everything by simply slamming swords, axes and spells at the problem, react to it all. Even Wrathion didn't understand. In all the past expansions there's been no message, at most it has been "Good will always triumph" or some useless untrue stuff like that. This time, the message is actually true and something to cling to, but oh how the playerbase has missed such an obvious bone thrown to them.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Hey OP say it with me V-I-D-E-O-G-A-M-E ..............I dont even know what to think about this post. I mean are you serious or just trolling? Like I give a crap about digital Pixels dying. You're are a strange one.
    :P JUST a video game? Video games are an art form that reflect upon the human condition using empathy in the form of immersion. Online game communities are formed of people and watching the population react to the events in-game are a reflection upon the people and upon society. Don't underestimate "just a video game". It says more about you than you realize. But I'd imagine you're not the kind of poster to appreciate that sort of depth.

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