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  1. #401
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    On the other MMO subforums people always are arrogantly claiming how they don't want to play F2P MMOs, because they are Pay2Win MMOs.

    I wonder how they're going to feel about paying a subscription for a Pay2Win MMO instead.
    There are more than a few MMO's out there that have a premium monthly subscription in addition to being F2P. It's not like it's never been done before anywhere at all. And of course, assuming that eventually WoW goes to something like this. It all depends on how it's set up when it comes to that: what's free, what isn't and what's included in the store that you can't get in game.

    I'm sort of ambivalent about it to be honest. But that's mainly because it's unlikely that I'll ever use it for much of anything and even if I did it would be my choice and no one else's business. In any case I'm much less against than I used to be, primarily because I've seen how it works in Rift and Tera and in those specific cases it's not that bad. SW:TOR on the other hand is quite bad. So it depends and to say much more at this point is entirely premature.
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  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I make close to 100g from doing the farm/cooking dailies in 6 minutes flat. That exludes the gold I make from a few greens, cloth, 100g for the soy sauce I buy with my ironpaw token or leather I skin from dead mobs up there. I also get 20 VP. I think this is my most profitable 6 minutes every day after the time I spend tending my actual farm (4 minutes).

    In other words, doing those dailies nets 2K gold per hour.

    I could then do the Isle of Thunder dailies plus all the other stuff that I do at the same time (key to the palace, chest, rares). Takes about 45 minutes usually. 12 quests (ie 24 charms minimum) for 240g from quest rewards. Plus I tend to get anywhere from 60 - 120 VP. Plus gold from the chest and final quest lootboxes = 60 gold. Plus I get 500g from the Key to the Palace scenario, plus I fill up my greater charms to 20 (= more gold from killing raid and world bosses). Plus I get 4-5 greens, a few stacks of cloth, maybe up 50g of vendor trash. All told you are looking at well over 1K gold per hour, plus you are getting VP in the process.

    Best of all, this is completely sustainable income.

    Mining for outland ores might even beat the raw gold/hour gained, at least for the first few hours of time you invest in it. But you aren't getting rep or VP which are far more valuable if you are playing to win. Also, mining is simply not sustainable. Try listing tons of stacks of any consumable on the AH and see what happens to the prices.

    The bottom line is this: I would be very, very surprised, if anyone can maximise their gold return in a week without at least doing something that will earn them 50 lesser charms.

    I get hundreds every week as a side effect of the stuff I am doing anyway. If I wasn't doing enough in WoW that I should require to buy my lesser charms for the week, I wouldn't be close to winning anything....
    And you think that competes with the income from sitting in trade chat watching for deals on ore and playing the ah? I can assure you that you're wrong. I mean you are talking hundreds of gold when i'm talking thousands of gold.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    Don't think someone can become addicted to buying the same pet or mount over and over so not sure the current store counts.
    There are many things that humans do that we may not think is the norm. Addicted to buying pets could be one of them, buying a mount for the five different battlenet accounts may be another. People do crazy shit. I have a buddy that race changes every CD, his reasoning is beyond me.


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  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    I don't why people are freaking out so much. This is going to be mostly for Asian Realms only.

    Remember the whole 25-mans were going to have better items? People here were also freaking out, believing Blizzard wants to return to the old Wrath model. Turns out it's also just for Asian realms.
    Now is the time to freak out. Once they let something in that they eventually realize wasn't well thought out they say "well we can't go back now (LFG/LFR)."

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by itzferal View Post
    There are many things that humans do that we may not think is the norm. Addicted to buying pets could be one of them, buying a mount for the five different battlenet accounts may be another. People do crazy shit. I have a buddy that race changes every CD, his reasoning is beyond me.
    Now picture someone buying charms\XP potions every week for those same 5 accounts, now you are in a whole new realm of crazy and problems.

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    What you fail to see is in a MMO it's not all about raiding,
    I realise this. But the same principles apply.

    cfor some it's earning as much gold as they can, [/quote]

    Pretty hard to define "winning" here. Even if you can create a scenario in which someone believes they are "winning" the gold game based on things they have bought from the store, I am not sure how that negatively affects anyone else playing the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    for some it's leveling every kinda of toon they can
    Again, same argument as above. Who exactly are you "beating" by levelling all your toons faster by paying for it. You are playing against yourself surely? I don't see how this harms other players, or compels anyone who doesn't want to spend the money on this to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    for some it's PVP others it raiding, hard core raiding is not the end all for winning (I'm sure some of the hard core PVPer will really have word with you on that),
    I have already proven that these store items don't give any advantage to either of these activities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    what if you're trying to level faster on a PVP server, seems it would be a clear advantage there, level = power.
    Actually, until you are level capped it makes no difference. You aren't "winning" anything. And as long as they prohibit the use of the level boost during the first week, all those playing to be the best on the server won't get any advantage from it at all, because by the time it becomes available they will be level capped anyway, and won't have any use for it.

    You can't argue that a lowbie on a PvP server is at a disadvantage because of this either. It may make the life of some other players easier (because they get to spend less time getting ganked because they get to level 90 faster), but it won't make your life harder. If you're level 25 in a zone, people who level faster than you will leave the zone sooner. It's not as if you are stuck with some guy who rolled his toon at the same time as you, even though he is 20 levels above you. On a pvp server there will always be the possibility of a higher level toon coming and ganking you.



    Look, I don't like the idea of Pay to Win any more than you do. I think it is a terrible idea. I just don't see this as Pay to Win.

  7. #407
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Look, I don't like the idea of Pay to Win any more than you do. I think it is a terrible idea. I just don't see this as Pay to Win.
    It does need to be pointed out again and again--for whatever good it does--that like many things Pay2Win has different definitions and is pretty much a personal and subjective thing. For me the only thing that is clearly Pay2Win with no questions about it is 'best gear in the game and only available in a cash shop'. Everything below that is pretty negotiable. Even really with gear. Previous tier LFR gear? What do you really win except a better position to catch up to everyone else? Some will see that as P2W, others won't.
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  8. #408
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I thought we pay for server access and Blizzard however knows that to keep ppl subbed they better deliver patches on top of that.
    Funny you should mention server access in the same breath as increased costs, since server costs are one of the main things that's gotten infinitely cheaper over the years. (and is one of the things allowing the proliferation of rich client F2P titles as well)

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I realise this. But the same principles apply.

    cfor some it's earning as much gold as they can,

    Pretty hard to define "winning" here. Even if you can create a scenario in which someone believes they are "winning" the gold game based on things they have bought from the store, I am not sure how that negatively affects anyone else playing the game.



    Again, same argument as above. Who exactly are you "beating" by levelling all your toons faster by paying for it. You are playing against yourself surely? I don't see how this harms other players, or compels anyone who doesn't want to spend the money on this to do so.



    I have already proven that these store items don't give any advantage to either of these activities.



    Actually, until you are level capped it makes no difference. You aren't "winning" anything. And as long as they prohibit the use of the level boost during the first week, all those playing to be the best on the server won't get any advantage from it at all, because by the time it becomes available they will be level capped anyway, and won't have any use for it.

    You can't argue that a lowbie on a PvP server is at a disadvantage because of this either. It may make the life of some other players easier (because they get to spend less time getting ganked because they get to level 90 faster), but it won't make your life harder. If you're level 25 in a zone, people who level faster than you will leave the zone sooner. It's not as if you are stuck with some guy who rolled his toon at the same time as you, even though he is 20 levels above you. On a pvp server there will always be the possibility of a higher level toon coming and ganking you.



    Look, I don't like the idea of Pay to Win any more than you do. I think it is a terrible idea. I just don't see this as Pay to Win.

    have not seen you proven anything (even your PVP statement seems flawed, if people are paying for a easier time seems like winning to me, less time being gawked and sooner to getting to gawk), also by leveling all those alts faster is a major advantage, I have several alts and it makes farming mats cake, and it's tons easier having all kind of toons with different professions (a lot easier to level at max one shot any node guarding mobs and flying FTW) which can give a major edge in the AH. - leveling alt faster does equal more gold faster in the end.
    Last edited by Dadwen; 2013-07-09 at 03:58 PM.

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinachsandwich View Post
    And you think that competes with the income from sitting in trade chat watching for deals on ore and playing the ah?
    Not at all. You haven't really been following what I have been saying have you?

    The question is: Does the ability to buy lesser charms help someone to win? I don't see how buying a bunch of lesser charms so that you can spend 24 hours a day watching the AH really helps you to "win" anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinachsandwich View Post
    I mean you are talking hundreds of gold when i'm talking thousands of gold.
    I was actually talking about hundreds of Lesser Charms of Good Fortune...

  11. #411
    NO NO NO and a thousand times no, Im fine with selling in game pets and mounts that are sold outside the game. I do not like the concept of them in the first place because it promotes "look what I have because I have extra money to spend" True they are cosmetic but the point is still valid. As for experience buff or charms that directly influence a player character , HELL NO! . This is a very dangerous and slippery slope that I fear will degrade wow into what DDO is or any of the pacific entertainment F2p games are. Oh look you want to respec $6 oh look you want the the best companion $20 oh look you want access to this area $3. Please blizzard reconsider this, doubt they will but *crosses fingers*

  12. #412
    So Blizzard came right out with it and said it was for Asia (at least for the time being).

    Totally called that. Can't believe anyone thought different. This sort of thing fits their model perfectly and doesn't fit the NA/EU model in its current state at all.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Not at all. You haven't really been following what I have been saying have you?

    The question is: Does the ability to buy lesser charms help someone to win? I don't see how buying a bunch of lesser charms so that you can spend 24 hours a day watching the AH really helps you to "win" anything.
    Personally I'd say yes, but it all depends on what you are trying to win. get tons of gold playing the AH and still the Extra chances at gear or at the least extra gold in raid.

  14. #414
    The fact remains that this feature is going live in Some of the asian servers and hopefully Blizzard will decide to roll it out on to the EU and US servers also.

    From the feedback the people in favour of the feature are in the majority and the people against are in the minority.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    On the other MMO subforums people always are arrogantly claiming how they don't want to play F2P MMOs, because they are Pay2Win MMOs.

    I wonder how they're going to feel about paying a subscription for a Pay2Win MMO instead.
    Simple: I will feel betrayed. And I will react by moving on from WoW for good if this is the way they're going to conduct their business.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    So Blizzard came right out with it and said it was for Asia (at least for the time being).

    Totally called that. Can't believe anyone thought different. This sort of thing fits their model perfectly and doesn't fit the NA/EU model in its current state at all.
    personally I not as concerned what they do there, seems they already do some shady stuff and it's a lost cause, (internet cafe buff?? really) it's the OUTSET part of the (in Asian regions, at the outset) Bashiok quote that has me worried.

  17. #417
    I'm going to laugh my ass off when it comes to the US/EU realms in 6.0. Just in time to level to 95 or 100, what a coincidence.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgePayne View Post
    The fact remains that this feature is going live in Some of the asian servers and hopefully Blizzard will decide to roll it out on to the EU and US servers also.

    From the feedback the people in favour of the feature are in the majority and the people against are in the minority.
    What feedback are you referring too? This thread? Hardly a proper sample for what would be the largest change WoW would undergo.
    Last edited by steroidz; 2013-07-09 at 04:21 PM.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgePayne View Post
    The fact remains that this feature is going live in Some of the asian servers and hopefully Blizzard will decide to roll it out on to the EU and US servers also.

    From the feedback the people in favour of the feature are in the majority and the people against are in the minority.
    Hmm from what I've seen between here the US forums and EU blizzard forums it seems to be the majority are against it (seemed a little more undecided before the charms where kicked it and it was just the XP buff)

  20. #420
    How is this pay to win? no one cares about leveling and if you say "well i do" you are like 4% of the player base.

    I have 3800 Lesser charms, how are people saying this is pay to win???? I have 3800 JUST from doing my normal routine. I do not go out to farm them.

    Anyone who makes slippery slope argument in life is just plain uneducated

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