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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Fine. Me, my sister, and a whole load of people I've met on BNet.
    And i can list u more than that who i know were raiders and now settle for LFR...

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    The reason I mentioned Sunwell and the like is because you're saying there's evidence that people all ran normals before LFR. No, people generally didn't run anything before LFR.

    Any evidence on this site is anecdotal at best - fansites rarely, if ever, represent the majority of the playerbase.
    Sunwell is probably the most inaccessible raid when the raid was current. Attunement and progression were key factors stopping the vast majority of players to even access the raid. This is totally different to raids since Wrath which u could just turn up and enter. So judging the amount of players accessing these raids is... well, Bullshit, to put it simply.

    I will repeat for you I AM NOT A LFR HATER, therefore i am not against it.

    I am simply discussing the OP of this thread.. whose saying he gave up doing Normals and is now doing LFR.

    And im saying that he represents a very large section of the raiding population who have now abandoned Raiding and r now doing LFR. This is proven by the fact the overall raiding community has plummeted since LFR introduction in Cata and by the large amount of threads like these.

    The large drop in raiding community is definitely connected in some way to LFR... LFR is not the only reason by a long shot but its certainly been a contributary factor in the decline of the raiding community.

  2. #262
    Personally, I don't find LFR very fullfilling. However, between School/Work/Family I don't have time to actually raid. Where does this leave me? Running LFR for a couple of clears, wishing I was 18 again and could raid 5 nights a week, and unsubbing from boredom (because if I'm not raiding, why play?). I have friends that buy me game time just to have me play with them, but if it wasn't for that I would be subbing few and far between (new content patches/lore/achievements to whore). LFR didn't kill raiding for me, honestly if not for LFR I would have quit for good. Atleast it gives me a way to continue the story I've followed for 8 years now.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    So not it does not make it mute. LFR was NOT the cause of destroying BEER league. Not in anyones mind.
    Care to explain how u know this to be true?

    Some evidence maybe?

    We all agree that pugging died out in Cata, most agree that pugging died out when LFR was introduced in Cata. How are these facts not connected?

    Ill give u a clue before u embarress yourself, pugging is ALWAYS quiet at the beginning of an expansion, its always popular from about halfway through to the end. Pugging in Wrath was dead for the first half of that expansion for example.

    So your connection to raid difficulty is actually totally bullshit tbh... it was EQUALLY as difficult at the early stages of Wrath for puggers to get rolling.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    And i can list u more than that who i know were raiders and now settle for LFR...



    Sunwell is probably the most inaccessible raid when the raid was current. Attunement and progression were key factors stopping the vast majority of players to even access the raid. This is totally different to raids since Wrath which u could just turn up and enter. So judging the amount of players accessing these raids is... well, Bullshit, to put it simply.

    I will repeat for you I AM NOT A LFR HATER, therefore i am not against it.

    I am simply discussing the OP of this thread.. whose saying he gave up doing Normals and is now doing LFR.

    And im saying that he represents a very large section of the raiding population who have now abandoned Raiding and r now doing LFR. This is proven by the fact the overall raiding community has plummeted since LFR introduction in Cata and by the large amount of threads like these.

    The large drop in raiding community is definitely connected in some way to LFR... LFR is not the only reason by a long shot but its certainly been a contributary factor in the decline of the raiding community.
    You are saying its a very large section who jumped shipped with what evidence exactly? Please don't use posters on this forum as we're a clear minority. You need to get numbers and sources and provide them please. I will happily discuss it when you do.

    There is a connection between raid participation dropping and LFR. But LFR is not the cause. You must understand in Wrath we had 10 and 25 man raids that had separate difficulty lockouts and LOOT. Cata gave 10 and 25 the same lock out and loot and tried to give a similar difficulty. Heroic mode was the same for both modes. LFR was brought out late Cata and showed a HUGE increase in people raiding more than _EVER_ before. (you can look up all the data from blue posts on this btw).

    Flex mode is the new thing to help out raiding. There are players who want something more difficult than LFR but not as hard as normal mode is. Also with the flexability of this mode they can have an adjustable raid size as well. Prior to this pugs and casual raiding guilds saw a decline and yes may have moved into LFR as they simply could not clear Normal mode. (again blizzard stated this and pointed out towards horridon N not being cleared by a lot of guilds and saying flex mode is for them)

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Care to explain how u know this to be true?

    Some evidence maybe?

    We all agree that pugging died out in Cata, most agree that pugging died out when LFR was introduced in Cata. How are these facts not connected?

    Ill give u a clue before u embarress yourself, pugging is ALWAYS quiet at the beginning of an expansion, its always popular from about halfway through to the end. Pugging in Wrath was dead for the first half of that expansion for example.

    So your connection to raid difficulty is actually totally bullshit tbh... it was EQUALLY as difficult at the early stages of Wrath for puggers to get rolling.
    Was it? I remember pugging Naxx 10 full clears and 25 up to Saph before Ulduar came out. I did it on crappy Iraqi internet that had 900-1800ms latency on a good day. Maybe it was just my realm, but pugging was huge all through Wrath. People in my guild got Obsidian Slayer in a pug.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Care to explain how u know this to be true?

    Some evidence maybe?

    We all agree that pugging died out in Cata, most agree that pugging died out when LFR was introduced in Cata. How are these facts not connected?

    Ill give u a clue before u embarress yourself, pugging is ALWAYS quiet at the beginning of an expansion, its always popular from about halfway through to the end. Pugging in Wrath was dead for the first half of that expansion for example.

    So your connection to raid difficulty is actually totally bullshit tbh... it was EQUALLY as difficult at the early stages of Wrath for puggers to get rolling.
    Evidence? its been stated by blues enough times (see my prior post)

    You have embarrassed your self enough sorry to say. Pugs are slightly quieter at the start of an expac BUT pugs tried to get going at the start of cata and failed miserably on the most part. The difficulty was HUGE compared to normal modes in wrath. 10man casual guilds got hit by a lot of brick walls and thats why the content in normal mode was nerfed quite early on the same as heroic dungeons.

    its not bullshit if you had a modicum of logic. Wrath raiding at the start was face roll easy and we had a pug on day 3 of Wrath release on Balnazzar EU I just dinged level 80 and members of my guild were already in a pug and clearing Nax 10. First 2 weeks in and I saw numerous pugs. That server was low population as well. Its anecdotal evidence yes but it shows that it was do-able early wrath and it was a lot easier than previous raiding content.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    You are saying its a very large section who jumped shipped with what evidence exactly? Please don't use posters on this forum as we're a clear minority. You need to get numbers and sources and provide them please. I will happily discuss it when you do.
    And yet u cannot provide data or figures to the contrary...

    U have stated "blue posters said so" and thats about it.

    I am actually not in disagreement that a large amount of people using LFR are players who never raided b4. Im just also saying that a large amount of LFR players r also raiders who have dropped out and abandonded raiding.

    U still havent addressed the fact that the raiding community is declining fast. Ru really trying to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with LFR?

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    And yet u cannot provide data or figures to the contrary...

    U have stated "blue posters said so" and thats about it.

    I am actually not in disagreement that a large amount of people using LFR are players who never raided b4. Im just also saying that a large amount of LFR players r also raiders who have dropped out and abandonded raiding.

    U still havent addressed the fact that the raiding community is declining fast. Ru really trying to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with LFR?
    Yes I said blue posters said so as quite frankly its on the mmo champ front pages enough times and i'm not going to go google search it for you.

    I have addressed the fact the raiding community has dwindled a bit in Normal mode. You should it i've said multiple times. raiding numbers went down quite sharply due to the change in difficulty during Cata. 10/25 man sharing the same difficulty loot and lockout. 10man casual guilds got hit hard and pugs often failed to down more than a couple of bosses. LFR was brought in to give these people a way of raiding as well as the people who never raided before. Now blizzard plans on bringing in Flex mode to give the beer league raiders and pugs a proper method of raiding thats under Normal mode but more difficult than LFR. LFR was the only alternative for casual raiders thats why some peopel only did that and not normal mode was it was vastly more difficult, Hence flex mode.....

    You really should read my posts more fully.

    infact here you go some info on flex mode and what it aims to do.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...nsoles-TCG-Art

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Doing normals is only "faster" when you have downed the encounter in the first place. LFR day 1 and normals day 1 with the same people would be vastly different in terms of clear speed. Yes the queue time can be higher thats a given. But it does beat spamming trade chat all day .

    But for the most part people who didn't raid before can now thanks to LFR it provides them a means of getting into raiding, even if its a easier version.
    I'm a player that started raiding in LFR and I enjoyed the taste of LFR, I started studying my class and improving myself to get to the top of the dps charts, I study the bosses before they are released. I consumed LFR because my Guild could never get itself in a position to raid but eventually I decided that LFR wasn't enough of a challenge for me and I left my Guild when they disapeared for Swtor for the second time and I went to join a Raid Guild because I had to raid, it was in my blood. It had to be done.

    Now I use LFR to practice mechanics, to sharpen my muscle memory, cap valor, gear up my alts and to fill in gear holes that will improve my performance in Guild Raid time. Because my mistweaver alt is geared up in LFR I can switch from DPS to misweaver and my guildie switches from Resto healer to dps and it gets us past Horridon's poisons and curses much easier. Then we switch back. I can try new rotations, I can try new alts in a raid like environment without wasting Guild scheduled raid time.

    LFR will give you what you put into it. If you put effort into it it will reward you. If you put nothing into it you will get nothing out of it with the exceptions of some sub par crappy versions of raid gear.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    There is nothing wrong with it until you look at the amount of money spent on that content and the numbers of players seeing said content.

    FYI BT and hyjal were face roll easy with only a couple of bosses really causing some slow down. But back on point Hard content is still here just locked under heroic mode. We now have easier content for people who want to see the same raid/bosses but at a difficulty THEY can complete. For those who can and want to make a go of it you will have flex normal and heroic.

    If you have raiding as it used to be then it will get a budget that will reflect this. So imagine scenario re-using the same models and zones and having bosses in there instead. You won't get unique art bosses etc as the budget will be TINY compared. You cannot justify having such a large budget for a raid when so few people will visit it. Thus LFR justifies having Heroic and Normal raiding.
    I wish you and everybody else would stop using the blue post "more content takes too much money" excuse. Trust me, Blizzard isn't hurting for money. MMOs are supposed to cater to a wide variety of players and they do that, but they can go to both ends of the spectrum on this. Not just the low end in difficulty.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    I wish you and everybody else would stop using the blue post "more content takes too much money" excuse. Trust me, Blizzard isn't hurting for money. MMOs are supposed to cater to a wide variety of players and they do that, but they can go to both ends of the spectrum on this. Not just the low end in difficulty.
    They are not hurting for money BUT if you are making content that is very expensive (it is) and there is no alternative made for the rest of the player base something is wrong.

    Since they really have not come up with a good alternative to raiding and they have to justify the money they spend on the game (they are a business) the easiest thing for them to do is make LFR etc.

    you understand this right and why we make this statement? Oh blizzard also stated that they saw players not clearing raid content so thats why nax was re-released previously and raids made more accessible. Then we fast forward and we now have LFR.

    Seriously if you spend a LOT of development time and money on the game you need to justify it. Dungeons have been confirmed to compete with raids for time/budget and strangely they are not being made in patches currently. Since 5mans were a primary source of catch up and gear advancement for casual players and are not being made how else do people play catchup or advance their character? Thats right LFR.

    You are very correct that MMOS cater to a wider community. Thats why LFR makes sense. True they can make an alternative but im unsure what it would be.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    I'm glad you're having fun but this is what has ruined raiding and its exclusivity. Don't you remember running around Isle of Quel'danas doing your dailies and seeing a shaman in his/her full skyshatter and just knowing "damn, that guy is good" and it being unique and rare. Or even back in Vanilla, seeing a Pally in Judgement sitting in Ironforge, that was badass. Now every reject and his friend runs around in the tier gear and legendary cloaks. It's insulting.
    I guess we are different kind of people. I never looked at other people and their gear, never tought of "how good he is", never cared about my exclusive gear towards others. Maybe they were unique, maybe I was too, but never looked at it that way. Showing off was never my style. Can you belive I never ever transmogged a single piece of gear? Just dont care.
    Maybe if I am teenager, I would care about showing off, but as grown men, its just not important in my life, be it in game or IRL.

    And Im sorry if it ruined your raiding and its exclusivity, but its just your point of view. You want to be respected and glorified in your realm community and this is not happening anymore. All I can say try to change with times, maybe find a new game where your needs for exclusivity will be accomplished
    From my point of view, when I was hardcore raiding, I never needed other peoples to look at me as semi-god, never wanted odd /w oh, how great gear you got etc.

  13. #273
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    "LFR is too easy"

    Raiding was never difficult, people were just retarded - theres not a single fight i can think of where i personally had an issue because i don't have the mental age and skills of a dead fish.

    LFR is for solo players that just want the gear / socials / alts

    Everything else is for people that want to raid.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by d0oms View Post
    Raiding was never difficult, people were just retarded
    Are you saying in general, raiding in WoW has never been difficult? If so, facepalms, facepalms everywhere.

    Some bosses were never defeated (not a single time) until nerfed by Blizzard. Just something as simple as the boss having too much HP, doing too much damage to the tank or too much AOE damage = difficult. It doesn't have to be complicated, it could simply be hard by healers not being able to keep up with damage etc.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    And yet u cannot provide data or figures to the contrary...

    U have stated "blue posters said so" and thats about it.
    That's BS talk. The burden of proof is more likely on you. You're the one that's claiming stuff out of nowhere, while your "opponent" at least has official statements that back him up. It's not like the information is hidden somewhere out there. It's not his job to educate you. If you're so passionate about discussing a topic, inform yourself.

    It's just the typical internet loudmouth tactics, really. Running your mouth in a generalizing and presumptious way while trying to refute anything that comes your way with the juvenile challenge to "prove it". What have you actually proven? If you ask for proof, you should go ahead and substantiate everything you claim with proof in advance, or else it's just being a jackass.

    You can't prove shit, just as much as the other guy. And nobody shouldn't have to, as it's supposed to be about debating and bringing arguments, and the only situation where people resort to "can you prove it?" tactics is when they get cornered by their own insecurity.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Now you've seen it, did you feel like you experienced it?
    As a tank I have to say yes, there is no difference from LFR to NHC for me. Heroic will probably be the same(atleast thats how NHC->HC felt for me in Cata and WOTLK)

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    Are you saying in general, raiding in WoW has never been difficult? If so, facepalms, facepalms everywhere.

    Some bosses were never defeated (not a single time) until nerfed by Blizzard. Just something as simple as the boss having too much HP, doing too much damage to the tank or too much AOE damage = difficult. It doesn't have to be complicated, it could simply be hard by healers not being able to keep up with damage etc.
    WoW in general has never been a difficult game, people are just not very good.

    If you can physically do it in WoW, odds are people are just sucking too much to be able to do it. And if you can't do it ? Simply get better gear and do it or get rid of the bad players if you take it seriously.

  18. #278
    LFR is what the hardcore was calling for. You wanted harder normals, you got them. You wanted content to get nerfed less, you got it. This was all made possible by lfr. What you all failed to take into account was what it would do to the social and lower tier guilds. Those got wrecked by this new model and went a way. With them leaving that made it harder for people to break into raiding. You destroyed your seed crop and now are upset about it. The entire problem right now is that normal is just tuned beyond a large portion of the community that use to be normal mode raiders. It's what you wanted, it's what you got, now live with it.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    And i can list u more than that who i know were raiders and now settle for LFR...

    .
    You need to stop using this rediculous argument, it holds just as much validity as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger and will whoop the others daddy. Unless you know every player and can clearly categorize raiders who quit because of LFR than the rest IT IS NOT FACT OR DATA!!!

    Edited: Sorry my web browser went nutso and repeated a lot.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2013-07-10 at 02:25 PM.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henkdejager View Post
    Yes..but as people get older and get a job and maybe a wife and shit they got less time to sit behind their pcs for 20 hours a week. They got LFR to still SEE the game, really so if i haven't completed God of war on hardest difficulty then i haven't experieced god of war? bullshit logic.
    My GM has a wife and kids, job, his wife goes to college...........and oh yeah we only raid 2 nights a week for a total of 6 hrs, you stereotype raiders as people with no families, jobs, life outside the game and even in BC my raid leader had a wife and job! Maybe you should stop stereotyping just to try and validate your excuse as to why you don't raid and just admit maybe it's too hard for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Without LFR, people didn't raid at all. Please keep that in mind.
    And yet before LFR there were more people playing, so SOMETHING must have kept them playing and having fun!

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