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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You need to stop using this rediculous argument, it holds just as much validity as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger and will whoop the others daddy. Unless you know every player and can clearly categorize raiders who quit because of LFR than the rest IT IS NOT FACT OR DATA!!!

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    You need to stop using this argument, its just as rediculous as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger. Unless you know every player and you can clearly catalog which raiders left over LFR IT IS NOT EMPERICAL DATA!

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    There is more to resources than money. Finding developers that can fit into the Warcraft style of production is not at all easy, resources for content is finite.

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    You need to stop using this argument, its just as rediculous as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger. Unless you know every player and you can clearly catalog which raiders left over LFR IT IS NOT EMPERICAL DATA!
    Yeh I know the fact they have a limited amount of staff and finding the right staff is never easy. They did some people onto the team from the Titan project so we should see even more content soon! Still budgets come into this factor as you have to assign a budget to a department to make that content it all goes hand in hand.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac2 View Post
    I guess we are different kind of people. I never looked at other people and their gear, never tought of "how good he is", never cared about my exclusive gear towards others. Maybe they were unique, maybe I was too, but never looked at it that way. Showing off was never my style. Can you belive I never ever transmogged a single piece of gear? Just dont care.
    Maybe if I am teenager, I would care about showing off, but as grown men, its just not important in my life, be it in game or IRL.

    And Im sorry if it ruined your raiding and its exclusivity, but its just your point of view. You want to be respected and glorified in your realm community and this is not happening anymore. All I can say try to change with times, maybe find a new game where your needs for exclusivity will be accomplished
    From my point of view, when I was hardcore raiding, I never needed other peoples to look at me as semi-god, never wanted odd /w oh, how great gear you got etc.
    It has nothing to do with the "look" or "showing off". I am not saying go AFK in Stormwind to show off. I am saying when you run into someone that has that kind of gear you know they are an elite player and a dedicated one. Something you can respect alot in the old mindset of MMOs. It's much like seeing someone with Bane of the Fallen King in Wrath when it was current and new content, From someone who got bane of the fallen king after 400 wipes, everybody that I saw with it before me made me want to work even harder to get the prestigious achievement.

    There should be some things in the game that are unique to the super elite, that is all I am saying and right now Blizzard is going in the complete opposite direction. Just because you pay, you are not entitled to anything. You should have to put in the time, effort and dedication to complete the most challenging and inaccessible content in a game.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Anticipate View Post
    As a tank I have to say yes, there is no difference from LFR to NHC for me. Heroic will probably be the same(atleast thats how NHC->HC felt for me in Cata and WOTLK)
    Did you just say LFR, Normal and Heroic are all the same? o.O Have you ever done Normal or Heroic?

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Unless you know every player and you can clearly catalog which raiders left over LFR IT IS NOT EMPERICAL DATA!
    Which means nothing here is "emperical" data. Unless Blizzard release numbers. Hell..the last number I remember was: 500 000 in normals and heroics in DS pre LFR and 2 million with LFR in DS. Posted here on MMO Champion. And that is easily a year gone.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    It has nothing to do with the "look" or "showing off". I am not saying go AFK in Stormwind to show off. I am saying when you run into someone that has that kind of gear you know they are an elite player and a dedicated one. Something you can respect alot in the old mindset of MMOs. It's much like seeing someone with Bane of the Fallen King in Wrath when it was current and new content, From someone who got bane of the fallen king after 400 wipes, everybody that I saw with it before me made me want to work even harder to get the prestigious achievement.

    There should be some things in the game that are unique to the super elite, that is all I am saying and right now Blizzard is going in the complete opposite direction. Just because you pay, you are not entitled to anything. You should have to put in the time, effort and dedication to complete the most challenging and inaccessible content in a game.
    You mean like Heroic ToT Achieves which barely anyone has ?

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    LFR came out with DS at the very end of cata and helped reduce sub losses. So not it does not make it mute. LFR was NOT the cause of destroying BEER league. Not in anyones mind. Normals being FAR harder than ever before was the cause of beer league going down the pan (along with 10s and 25 being same difficulty lock out and loot). Cata saw far less pugs early on. Towards the end after the nerfs came in it got easier. You really need to check your self before you wreck your self. You have shown no evidence at all. Posts on this thread are peoples own personal views on what LFR is for them and is not representative of the majority of the player base.
    LMAO raids were not hard in Crapaclysm and on my server there were A LOT of pugs going on.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    LMAO raids were not hard in Crapaclysm and on my server there were A LOT of pugs going on.
    Yea I think peoples perceptions are skewed by "hard" raids due to the server they are on. Stormrage/Illidan have tons of pugs successfully completing content with minimal wipes almost the second week the raid is out. Of course heroic kills don't happen for a little longer into the raid but even then there's pugs that kill at least 50% of the bosses on heroic as some just require a tighter group of players.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by d0oms View Post
    You mean like Heroic ToT Achieves which barely anyone has ?
    If ToT was it's own super-hard zone it'd be different. Say what you want about LFR!=Normal!=Heroic, it's still the same Zone.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    LMAO raids were not hard in Crapaclysm and on my server there were A LOT of pugs going on.
    They were not hard for you or I. They were harder than Wrath and pugs on most severs early on failed. Blizzard admitted as much and we saw a LOT of nerfs to heroic content as well so other guilds could attempt to clear the content.

    You do know this right? If you find something easier good for you. I enjoyed the difficulty in Cata but changed jobs and didnt find time to do the raiding I was used to and quit. Only came back because of the ease of using LFR while its face roll easy I am a bit of a lore nerd and love collecting gear for transmog.

    On Darksorrow EU for example a lot of pugs fell over (switched there for cata) at the start as they simply could not beat the encounters blizzard admitted the tuning was quite high hence the nerfs (same for heroic dungeons).

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You need to stop using this rediculous argument, it holds just as much validity as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger and will whoop the others daddy. Unless you know every player and can clearly categorize raiders who quit because of LFR than the rest IT IS NOT FACT OR DATA!!!

    Edited: Sorry my web browser went nutso and repeated a lot.
    I was showing exactly how stupid that point was myself! lol

    He used anecdotal evidence that he knew players who did, and i used my point to prove its stupid to make such statements.... sheesh i know 'people i know' is anecdotal which is why i dont use that argument.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    My GM has a wife and kids, job, his wife goes to college...........and oh yeah we only raid 2 nights a week for a total of 6 hrs, you stereotype raiders as people with no families, jobs, life outside the game and even in BC my raid leader had a wife and job! Maybe you should stop stereotyping just to try and validate your excuse as to why you don't raid and just admit maybe it's too hard for you.
    I don't have time to do organised raiding because I never know when I'll be free. Simple as that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    And yet before LFR there were more people playing, so SOMETHING must have kept them playing and having fun!
    Sure, but that's in no way related to LFR itself. People started *leaving* en masse in Cata. LFR patch slowed that down significantly. This has been stated by Blizz.

    We know that during the end of Wrath, and first two major patches of Cata, subs had started dropping, quickly.
    We also know that when the LFR patch came out, these losses slowed.
    We also know that most of this years sub losses were in China.

    Those are the things we know in relation to subs and LFR. Anything else is conjecture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I was showing exactly how stupid that point was myself! lol

    He used anecdotal evidence that he knew players who did, and i used my point to prove its stupid to make such statements.... sheesh i know 'people i know' is anecdotal which is why i dont use that argument.
    You asked me to: "... show me any poster who says they have never raided at all and now do LFR", and I did. I also said in the same post that anything you or I say on this forum is anecdotal at best.
    Last edited by TyrantWave; 2013-07-10 at 02:38 PM.

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    If ToT was it's own super-hard zone it'd be different. Say what you want about LFR!=Normal!=Heroic, it's still the same Zone.
    Oh you mean like a raid exclusively for the "hardcore" (people that do nothing but play wow in thier spare time basically)

    This would be a bad move by blizz as can be seen with sunwell.

    Personally i wouldn't care but i cerainly would not be able to partake due to work and Dota 2 >.>

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I have addressed the fact the raiding community has dwindled a bit in Normal mode. You should it i've said multiple times. raiding numbers went down quite sharply due to the change in difficulty during Cata. 10/25 man sharing the same difficulty loot and lockout. 10man casual guilds got hit hard and pugs often failed to down more than a couple of bosses. LFR was brought in to give these people a way of raiding as well as the people who never raided before. Now blizzard plans on bringing in Flex mode to give the beer league raiders and pugs a proper method of raiding thats under Normal mode but more difficult than LFR. LFR was the only alternative for casual raiders thats why some peopel only did that and not normal mode was it was vastly more difficult, Hence flex mode.....
    Do u really think LFR didnt have anything to do with raiding guilds decline from Cata onwards?

    Im curious about this '10man casual guilds' u talk about in Cata, they 'got hit hard' at the beginning of Cata. Pretty much every guild and their dog was a 25man guild at the switchover from Wrath. And all the 10mans that existed had either stepped down from 25man to 10man or were newly created 10man progression guilds. Conclusion, there wasnt much of a 10man casual guild community coming from Wrath to Cata, so why even mention it?

    U still havent addressed whether or not u think LFR has effected the overall raiding community at all... cos afterall that was my MAIN point... so ill leave it here for u again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I am actually not in disagreement that a large amount of people using LFR are players who never raided b4. Im just also saying that a large amount of LFR players r also raiders who have dropped out and abandonded raiding.

    U still havent addressed the fact that the raiding community is declining fast. Ru really trying to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with LFR?
    Well?
    Last edited by Endemonadia; 2013-07-10 at 02:56 PM.

  14. #294
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    I have yet to see a HC raider moan about LFR, all this LFR bullshit is coming from people who raid LFR and normals then the few who try to do heroics but cant really do them.

    As a Heroic raider who raids during progress 5+ days a week, there is nothing wrong with LFR, Infact it was a good, simple way to gear up alts before throwing heroic gear at them.

  15. #295
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    I'm glad you're enjoying the game

    I don't think LFR has much to do with the subscription loss, but I would like to see Blizz do something that heals up a bit of the wound.
    pencil is cool

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Which means nothing here is "emperical" data. Unless Blizzard release numbers. Hell..the last number I remember was: 500 000 in normals and heroics in DS pre LFR and 2 million with LFR in DS. Posted here on MMO Champion. And that is easily a year gone.
    I forgot the name of the webpage that tracks raiding guilds that go into Raids and the content they down but they stated that the percentage of players at wows subscription peak who experienced the lich King fight (not defeated the king, just experienced it) was 10%, and the amount that experienced the heroic fight was .078%. So 10% and then subtract all these raiders who quit over LFR, over Cataclysm, over burn out, overwhat ever then its completely reasonable to say the raiding community is less than 10% of the population UNLESS LFR has actually led more people to join Raid Guilds.

    Knowing people who did something just proves that the people you know are a teeny tiny sample of which all belong to the same social group as you. When Third graders argue over whose daddy is bigger they operate under the assumption that daddy is going to beat up someone elses daddy, but no daddy ever beat up another daddy over their kids arguing over whose daddy was bigger.

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    I don't have time to do organised raiding because I never know when I'll be free. Simple as that.




    Sure, but that's in no way related to LFR itself. People started *leaving* en masse in Cata. LFR patch slowed that down significantly. This has been stated by Blizz.

    We know that during the end of Wrath, and first two major patches of Cata, subs had started dropping, quickly.
    We also know that when the LFR patch came out, these losses slowed.
    We also know that most of this years sub losses were in China.

    Those are the things we know in relation to subs and LFR. Anything else is conjecture.



    You asked me to: "... show me any poster who says they have never raided at all and now do LFR", and I did. I also said in the same post that anything you or I say on this forum is anecdotal at best.
    2 of my guildies work retail and never know when they will be available, still they are doing heroic raids with us, and as for your other "points" saying LFR slowed it is a fucking joke, people that wanted to leave left and there were people like me who said "Ok, I will wait and see what next expansion brings before I quit seeing as I am already towards the end of this piece of shit".

  18. #298
    I don't have time for the kind of raiding I enjoy most (heroic progression raiding preferably) so I play through LFR a few times to see the raids, see the bosses and experience the story. But it doesn't captivate me because of the lack of challenge. But then if you add any challenge into the equation it all goes to shit because nobody talks to anyone else etc...

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    2 of my guildies work retail and never know when they will be available, still they are doing heroic raids with us, and as for your other "points" saying LFR slowed it is a fucking joke, people that wanted to leave left and there were people like me who said "Ok, I will wait and see what next expansion brings before I quit seeing as I am already towards the end of this piece of shit".
    Good for your guildies I guess. Not been my such luck.

    Did I say LFR slowed the losses? No. I said at the release of the LFR patch, losses slowed. Whatever reasoning for people leaving or staying is down to the individual.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    2 of my guildies work retail and never know when they will be available, still they are doing heroic raids with us, and as for your other "points" saying LFR slowed it is a fucking joke, people that wanted to leave left and there were people like me who said "Ok, I will wait and see what next expansion brings before I quit seeing as I am already towards the end of this piece of shit".
    most raiding guilds I've been in have always had a set raid schedule with minimum weekly attendence targets. Ain't no way I could commit to that kinda schedule these days with everything else going on =(

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