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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    You seriously overestimate the will power of people.

    If you added an option to start a character in max level gear millions will do it. It will be the norm.
    That doesn't dictate if it's a good or bad system.
    Christ, I'm really sick of this "majority" speak.

    But on the topic of "subs are dropping because of LFR," I agree it's a little far fetched to say that.
    There are hundreds of reasons why people leave.
    Yet it was has been repeated and repeated and repeated that Cata sub drops were a cause of hard content.

    See the only reason it's even being discussed is because LFR huggers and Blizzard all think it was the root problem.
    So naturally if X is true (which is not but you all seem to think it is) then the opposite is true as well.

    We're just fighting fire with fire.
    You are only tired of the majority speak because it and facts dont support your opinion and viewpoint. If it was a fact that supported your LFR hatin then you would be rubbing it in our faces.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You are only tired of the majority speak because it and facts dont support your opinion and viewpoint. If it was a fact that supported your LFR hatin then you would be rubbing it in our faces.
    I am interested in what changes that person would make that would improve the game. Same for anyone who hates LFR.

    That said attunements while I hated them as a raid leader I enjoyed them when I did them first time around on a character. I would love an optional attunement quest chain with a reward at the end

  3. #323
    I dont know if its still there but I remember not being able to take the new guild healer into ToES because they had not cleared Shek'Zeer in LFR or normal first. Thats the only current attunement that I know of.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I dont know if its still there but I remember not being able to take the new guild healer into ToES because they had not cleared Shek'Zeer in LFR or normal first. Thats the only current attunement that I know of.
    Yeh that was in place from Mop start requiring you to have Ilevel for MSV then ilvel + MSV cleared to enter HOF and Ilevel + HOF cleared to enter TOES. It was quite a good system to get people into those raids but as far as I know you can skip those raids provided you have enough ilevel and jump into TOT. I could be wrong though!

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You are only tired of the majority speak because it and facts dont support your opinion and viewpoint. If it was a fact that supported your LFR hatin then you would be rubbing it in our faces.
    Possibly. There's also the problem of speaking for the majority. When you deal with so many people it becomes harder to call things in black and white. Also, we're dealing with 8 million players. That's not a huge sample size compared to potential players, players Blizzard wants.

    It's just a wishy washy situation when you bring in the amount of people doing something as a dictator of quality.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Yeh that was in place from Mop start requiring you to have Ilevel for MSV then ilvel + MSV cleared to enter HOF and Ilevel + HOF cleared to enter TOES. It was quite a good system to get people into those raids but as far as I know you can skip those raids provided you have enough ilevel and jump into TOT. I could be wrong though!
    This person had sufficient Ilevel but had only cleared LFR up to Garalon. As they did not beat Queen in LFR they didn't have access to ToES Normal Raid.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    This person had sufficient Ilevel but had only cleared LFR up to Garalon. As they did not beat Queen in LFR they didn't have access to ToES Normal Raid.
    I guess it only works for the 1st tier then? with TOT being separate and allowing you access if you have the ilevel only?

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    It has nothing to do with the "look" or "showing off". I am not saying go AFK in Stormwind to show off. I am saying when you run into someone that has that kind of gear you know they are an elite player and a dedicated one. Something you can respect alot in the old mindset of MMOs. It's much like seeing someone with Bane of the Fallen King in Wrath when it was current and new content, From someone who got bane of the fallen king after 400 wipes, everybody that I saw with it before me made me want to work even harder to get the prestigious achievement.

    There should be some things in the game that are unique to the super elite, that is all I am saying and right now Blizzard is going in the complete opposite direction. Just because you pay, you are not entitled to anything. You should have to put in the time, effort and dedication to complete the most challenging and inaccessible content in a game.
    True, i agree with you and this was always the case. Super elite have heroic achievements and heroic boss kills and they put effort and time. I respect that fully. I just wont do it anymore.
    Also, you said its the old mindset of wow- yes, it is just that - OLD. Times change and we need to adapt. Game adapted and I did. If someone will not adapt, he will just rage and qq, just like in irl.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Possibly. There's also the problem of speaking for the majority. When you deal with so many people it becomes harder to call things in black and white. Also, we're dealing with 8 million players. That's not a huge sample size compared to potential players, players Blizzard wants.

    It's just a wishy washy situation when you bring in the amount of people doing something as a dictator of quality.
    I don't think you can even follow that logic. I don't presume to speak for the majority, I am a raider too but unlike you I don't hate on LFR because it gives everyone the potential to see the content. I don't derive my uniqueness from keeping people from experiencing content. I see the benefits of LFR and I use those benefits to better my Raid Guilds Progression. I don't care how you or any one else progresses in this game as the only way someone effects my game is if they buy my gems, echants, gear, enhancements and the like on LFR/Normal/Heroic gear they find in the appropriate tiers and in doing so they are only making me richer.

    I don't scream about not wanting to pay school taxes because I don't have children and then benefit from an educated society by driving over bridges, paved roads and shopping in stores and businesses created by people with a public education.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    As for lack of people applying to guilds no idea on that one do you have numbers to back it up or just anecdotal evidence? Lack of skilled players again what do we have to prove this? If you mean by seeing the amount of unskilled players in LFR im afraid thats not true. You will just simply see the wider player base (thus lower skilled player base in most cases) in LFR. Before you had gates to stop them raiding. Aka guilds and raid leaders/attunements etc.
    There are many threads about it on these very forums. Loads of well-established and experienced guilds and players have noted the severe lack of skilled players around. Thier apps system has all but ground to a halt. Top guilds like Paragon dropping from 25man to 10man and stating clearly that its due to the lack of skilled players available. Since then dozens of other top guilds have done the same.

    The fact that if ur honest u will admit that on your own realm u have noticed that all the well-established guilds from back in the day, most (if not all) have folded and disappeared.

    I can even cite the documentary "Race to World first" which is set in cata and based around Blood Legion who clearly state on the record that they have noticed a huge drop off in skilled available players.




    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I think LFR is not the largest cause in normal participation dropping. That was the adjustments made in Cata to normal mode raiding in 10/25 man. LFR came along as a band aid to give players a way to raid as Normal mode became harder for them and thus less accessible (until the nerfs). It has some impact I don't think anyone is denying it. But for the most part its a fairly positive impact due to the amount of people now "raiding".
    My definition of "raiding" is guilds who are raiding in Normal or Heroic. LFR is not part of the "raiding scene".

    LFR may have been originally opened to help players get into raiding but in reality its hindered raiding guilds. Very obviously so.

    Ru really trying to tell me that LFR teaches new players anything about real guild raiding whatsoever? ofc not. No raid leader, no tactics, minimal wiping, no vent. Theyre actually worlds apart. New players to Wow will learn absolutely nothing at all about what will be expected from them when they join a raiding guild.

    Raiding guilds are shouting very loudly that LFR players r either not bothering to step up to raiding or the ones who do r totally clueless, or just bad.

    Im sure there are some very nice stories of some great players moving up but that the exception not the norm...

    Ask ANY guild thats raiding how many players theyve recruited from LFR... then u will see for yourself.

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You are only tired of the majority speak because it and facts dont support your opinion and viewpoint. If it was a fact that supported your LFR hatin then you would be rubbing it in our faces.
    You have no facts........none at all, you don't know the majority of anything, you sit there and say there are millions of reasons people leave and we don't know them, well news flash hot shot you don't know everything either so please shut the hell up with this majority crap.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I don't think you can even follow that logic. I don't presume to speak for the majority, I am a raider too but unlike you I don't hate on LFR because it gives everyone the potential to see the content. I don't derive my uniqueness from keeping people from experiencing content. I see the benefits of LFR and I use those benefits to better my Raid Guilds Progression. I don't care how you or any one else progresses in this game as the only way someone effects my game is if they buy my gems, echants, gear, enhancements and the like on LFR/Normal/Heroic gear they find in the appropriate tiers and in doing so they are only making me richer.

    I don't scream about not wanting to pay school taxes because I don't have children and then benefit from an educated society by driving over bridges, paved roads and shopping in stores and businesses created by people with a public education.
    Nice to know bad players don't effect your enjoyment of the game but it does mine especially when we have to keep swapping out a pug if someone can't make the raid because they think they know the fights because of LFR, not to mention the piss poor players IN LFR.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.
    No, that's not the case at all.

    While there may be a small number of players who once upon a time raided normal (in Wrath) and who now do only LFR, the great majority of players who do only LFR have not done organized raiding at all otherwise, aside from the occasional pug or earlier-tier guild run.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Bull. If that was true those people would of left long before LFR came out, which was only 9 months ago. People that weren't raiding obviously had enough to do before LFR to keep them subscribed.
    I left in early Cataclysm, and came back only because LFR was being added (although I didn't use it until MoP).

    The decline in Cataclysm was stopped for half a year after LFR was added, and I think a lot of that was people returning now that they weren't being excluded. Exclude them again and they will leave again.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #334
    My definition of "raiding" is guilds who are raiding in Normal or Heroic. LFR is not part of the "raiding scene".
    Well, shock horror, your definition is wrong. Raiding is any group of more than 5 people in a PvE environment. That's it.

    Top guilds said they noticed a drop off of skilled players. Nothing about LFR. (And, to be a "skilled player", I apparently need to have been raiding for 3 xpacs heroic current content. So how the fuck is a new player to the game meant to be "skilled" if they don't even get a chance to start?)

    Ask ANY guild thats raiding how many players theyve recruited from LFR... then u will see for yourself.
    Find me a guild that went into LFR to actively look for new players.


    Anyway, now I'm finally home and have time to type, here's something to think about:

    If LFR is the reason why many people aren't normal raiding now, that must mean they find normal raiding worse than LFR. Why is that do you wonder?

    I know why it is for me: The ratio of good guilds compared to drama, people hopping, overly entitled twits who want to control everything, angsty teenagers etc etc is appalling. There is so much unbelievable drama and elitism in, shall I say, "entry level" normal-mode guilds, that I don't blame people for going "sod this."

    "Oh, but get some experience in these and you can then join any guild!"
    True, true.. except, why the hell would I want to bother with all that crap when I'm here to have fun playing a game. If I need to join guilds where it's full of drama or abusive RLs, then I won't want any part of your "raiding scene", and I'll be glad for you all to moan how no one wants to play with you.
    Last edited by TyrantWave; 2013-07-10 at 05:35 PM.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    While there may be a small number of players who once upon a time raided normal (in Wrath) and who now do only LFR,
    I think there may be more of those players than you think. I am one of them. In my case, I know I'm unlikely to put up with guild searching/hopping/drama just to raid again.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    There are many threads about it on these very forums. Loads of well-established and experienced guilds and players have noted the severe lack of skilled players around. Thier apps system has all but ground to a halt. Top guilds like Paragon dropping from 25man to 10man and stating clearly that its due to the lack of skilled players available. Since then dozens of other top guilds have done the same.

    The fact that if ur honest u will admit that on your own realm u have noticed that all the well-established guilds from back in the day, most (if not all) have folded and disappeared.

    I can even cite the documentary "Race to World first" which is set in cata and based around Blood Legion who clearly state on the record that they have noticed a huge drop off in skilled available players.






    My definition of "raiding" is guilds who are raiding in Normal or Heroic. LFR is not part of the "raiding scene".

    LFR may have been originally opened to help players get into raiding but in reality its hindered raiding guilds. Very obviously so.

    Ru really trying to tell me that LFR teaches new players anything about real guild raiding whatsoever? ofc not. No raid leader, no tactics, minimal wiping, no vent. Theyre actually worlds apart. New players to Wow will learn absolutely nothing at all about what will be expected from them when they join a raiding guild.

    Raiding guilds are shouting very loudly that LFR players r either not bothering to step up to raiding or the ones who do r totally clueless, or just bad.

    Im sure there are some very nice stories of some great players moving up but that the exception not the norm...

    Ask ANY guild thats raiding how many players theyve recruited from LFR... then u will see for yourself.
    I swear there is no helping you.

    Those guilds are top level guilds. They might see a drop in potential candidates but in all honesty hard to figure out why so few people are applying to them. (I know paragon limits it to their country so thats one possible reason).

    I am honest and the guilds I were in folded before LFR was even a wet dream. Vanilla our guild folded prior to TBC launch a new guild formed in TBC we folded shortly at the end of Wrath well before LFR came into it. Guilds rise and fall since forever.

    Where did I say LFR teaches people about guild raiding? not once have I said this. It introduces you to raiding yes (a very easy form of raiding) The average player in LFr might not be that skilled as there are simply SO many more people raiding there you are bound to find the less skilled players.

    You use anecdotal evidence as 100% truth. No doubt some guilds may be affected but with out raw numbers on whos doing what its just opinion. Don't get me wrong LFR has its faults but its not the raid killer. The amount of people doing heroic raiding has always been low. Has it gotten lower? probably but its not going to be massively due to LFR.

  17. #337
    OP is master troll.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    While there may be a small number of players who once upon a time raided normal (in Wrath) and who now do only LFR,.

    I think there may be more of those players than you think. I am one of them. In my case, I know I'm unlikely to put up with guild searching/hopping/drama just to raid again.
    Agreed Osmeric...

    The OP of this very thread for example maybe?

    And the large number of players who on this very thread have clearly siad they have done the same.

    The amount of players who have stepped down from raiding guilds and now just play around in LFR is probably a large and significant number of players. Hence my point that LFR may well have been setup to help raiding but in reality its done the opposite.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Agreed Osmeric...

    The OP of this very thread for example maybe?

    And the large number of players who on this very thread have clearly siad they have done the same.

    The amount of players who have stepped down from raiding guilds and now just play around in LFR is probably a large and significant number of players. Hence my point that LFR may well have been setup to help raiding but in reality its done the opposite.
    You say it hasn't helped raiding, I say it's done raiding a massive service. Are normal mode, elitist filled raiding guilds dying out? You betcha! And it's great.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    You have no facts........none at all, you don't know the majority of anything, you sit there and say there are millions of reasons people leave and we don't know them, well news flash hot shot you don't know everything either so please shut the hell up with this majority crap.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nice to know bad players don't effect your enjoyment of the game but it does mine especially when we have to keep swapping out a pug if someone can't make the raid because they think they know the fights because of LFR, not to mention the piss poor players IN LFR.
    Do you listen to yourself when you get all wrapped up in your nerd-rage? My argument is 'There are millions of reasons why millions of people left' and you think that accusing me of not knowing everything some how dismantles my argument? I'm starting to question whom I am debating with because you seem incapable of having an intellectual discussion on the topic. Hot shot? Shut the hell up? You don't know everything? What part of this is intellectual? Is your daddy gonna beat up my daddy next because he is bigger?

    And As I have told you before your interpretation of a bad player varies, You fulfill my interpretation of a baddie very adequately.

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