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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    So ur backing me up thanks...

    The point is that without LFR people raided normals, and with LFR alot of people dont raid normals anymore.

    Ur saying the same thing as me! lol

    The only question is whether this is a positive move 'forward' or is it a move 'backwards'.

    From a raiding point of view its a move backwards and from a casual/time commitment point of view its a step forward.
    No I am not. You are saying LFR replaces normals full stop that isnt the case. LFR replaces raiding for _some_ people who no longer can do focused raiding with a set time/date. Without LFR a lot of people did not raid. Some people would not have come back for mists if LFR was not out.

    Normals being tuned to difficult for most people FORCED people into LFR. That is why Flex mode has come out as there was no happy medium. LFR was a reaction to what happened to beer league raiding that was destroyed in Cata. People were struggling to do normals/heroics in Cata and thats why it was constantly nerfed. In MOP LFR reduced the need to nerf normal/heroic Flex mode will go that step further by bringing beer league back so Normal and Heroic do not need nerfs and participation in NONE LFR raids should increase.

    LFR is not the cause of normal mode raids dropping in numbers that was done by Normal being buffed in Cata.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert3620 View Post
    Subs didn't rocket down when you put in lfr, they started to go down when raids were done that a large amount of people couldn't do on normal that had been normal mode raiders. The upper end of the raiding community got taken care of this expansion, the lower end did as well, those in the middle tho got destroyed.

    LFR is not and has not been the problem. It's the poor tuning of normal that is the problem.
    This guy sums it up as well

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Without LFR, people didn't raid at all. Please keep that in mind.
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.
    Most people I raided with just quit because normal were tuned so terrible. They didn't go to lfr, they just quit the game. I am sure lfr has some former normal mode raiders in it but I would guess for the most part it's people that were not raiding that much before.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac2 View Post
    Started in TBC, I have raided all up to Black Temple. Never made to Sunwell, did it in Wotlk.
    Killed Ilidan and took break until Wotlk. Cleared Wotlk on normal modes and I was happy.
    Heroic modes? Never bothered, seen the content already.

    Cata and LFR came to the table - golden era of casual play begun. Convenience above all and everything. Best thing that happened to my gameplay in wow. I could raid whenever I wanted and leave whenever I wanted.
    Now Im asking myself how could I ever play in guild with schedule raid times, I was actually wasting my time back then, raiding 16 hours a week in tbc. Just to experience and kill last boss.

    Now I invest much less time and get the same goal. And still subbed. Its all about TIME, finally I can play the game less and get same goals.

    Thanks to Blizzard for LFD/LFR.
    I'm glad you're having fun but this is what has ruined raiding and its exclusivity. Don't you remember running around Isle of Quel'danas doing your dailies and seeing a shaman in his/her full skyshatter and just knowing "damn, that guy is good" and it being unique and rare. Or even back in Vanilla, seeing a Pally in Judgement sitting in Ironforge, that was badass. Now every reject and his friend runs around in the tier gear and legendary cloaks. It's insulting.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.
    Less than 5% of people even set foot in Sunwell off the top of my head. Blizzard themselves have stated that it was an absolute tiny minority of players who raided before LFR.

    Show me this "evidence" that proves the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    I'm glad you're having fun but this is what has ruined raiding and its exclusivity. Don't you remember running around Isle of Quel'danas doing your dailies and seeing a shaman in his/her full skyshatter and just knowing "damn, that guy is good" and it being unique and rare. Or even back in Vanilla, seeing a Pally in Judgement sitting in Ironforge, that was badass. Now every reject and his friend runs around in the tier gear and legendary cloaks. It's insulting.
    I can honestly say that, no, not once have I ever thought that.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    No I am not. You are saying LFR replaces normals full stop that isnt the case. LFR replaces raiding for _some_ people who no longer can do focused raiding with a set time/date. Without LFR a lot of people did not raid. Some people would not have come back for mists if LFR was not out.

    Normals being tuned to difficult for most people FORCED people into LFR. That is why Flex mode has come out as there was no happy medium. LFR was a reaction to what happened to beer league raiding that was destroyed in Cata. People were struggling to do normals/heroics in Cata and thats why it was constantly nerfed. In MOP LFR reduced the need to nerf normal/heroic Flex mode will go that step further by bringing beer league back so Normal and Heroic do not need nerfs and participation in NONE LFR raids should increase.

    LFR is not the cause of normal mode raids dropping in numbers that was done by Normal being buffed in Cata.
    Methinks u need to re-assess your position... LFR was around in Cata.

    This makes your point totally mute.

    Also, most would argue that LFR was the main cause of destroying 'beer league' raiding (by this i guess u mean pugs). Pugging was alive and well thoughout Wrath. It plummetted when LFR was introduced in Cata, nothing to do with raiding difficulty. LFR took away the need to do pugs so its not surprising pugging took a dive in Cata.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Less than 5% of people even set foot in Sunwell off the top of my head. Blizzard themselves have stated that it was an absolute tiny minority of players who raided before LFR.

    Show me this "evidence" that proves the opposite.



    I can honestly say that, no, not once have I ever thought that.
    WTF has Sunwell got to do with anything im saying?

    I AM NOT AN LFR HATER FFS!!!!!

    Im showing u facts and actually reading what people r posting... i suggest u do the same.

    Ive shown u evidence to back myself up... READ POSTS ON THIS THREAD.

    I challenged u to show me any poster who says they have never raided at all and now do LFR... i can show u loads of posters who admit they raided Normals in the past and now do LFR... the OP being one! lol

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    So ur backing me up thanks...

    The point is that without LFR people raided normals, and with LFR alot of people dont raid normals anymore.

    Ur saying the same thing as me! lol

    The only question is whether this is a positive move 'forward' or is it a move 'backwards'.

    From a raiding point of view its a move backwards and from a casual/time commitment point of view its a step forward.
    You wan't people in your raid group that only want to see the last boss and then split until the next expansion drops and they will take the easiest path to the end possible? Once the last boss goes down they are gone and they really don't care if you want to gear up some more in preparation for the next tier. They are always the least geared because gearing up requires effort. They scream and bitch if a purple ring is put at the end of a rep grind because its one more thing 'they have to do'. They want to see the content then they want to go play other games. They only have as much loyalty to the guild as they need to return to see the content and with LFR they have no need to even do that. And these are the players you want in your raid guild?

    You get 3 types of players in LFR;
    Those who don't have the time to schedule to raiding, you don't want them.
    Those that hate Raid Guilds due to bad experiences, they don't want you.
    Least resistance guys who only want to see the content, You want them? *scratches head.

    I would say you can have the lazy bums but don't screw over the other player types who can't or don't want to raid.

    If you think non-LFR content is good enough for everyone else then I suggest an experiment, for the whole entirety of the next expansion you put yourself in the shoes of someone who has no access to LFR and can't Raid. That means you get access to Heroic 5 mans and scenarios for an entire expansions life and that also means no heroic scenarios since they hand out welfare purples. If its good enough for the masses then you should find it quite enjoyable.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.
    blizzard stated that the amount people doing raids even during wrath was low. LFR has seen more people raid than ever before and even then its not the entire playbase. Your asking for evidence on this forum is pure rubbish sorry. Its not going to be good data. This site is a MINORITY in it self and is a FANSITE for wow.... so go figure that most people here would have at some point raided.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Methinks u need to re-assess your position... LFR was around in Cata.

    This makes your point totally mute.

    Also, most would argue that LFR was the main cause of destroying 'beer league' raiding (by this i guess u mean pugs). Pugging was alive and well thoughout Wrath. It plummetted when LFR was introduced in Cata, nothing to do with raiding difficulty. LFR took away the need to do pugs so its not surprising pugging took a dive in Cata.

    - - - Updated - - -



    WTF has Sunwell got to do with anything im saying?

    I AM NOT AN LFR HATER FFS!!!!!

    Im showing u facts and actually reading what people r posting... i suggest u do the same.

    Ive shown u evidence to back myself up... READ POSTS ON THIS THREAD.

    I challenged u to show me any poster who says they have never raided at all and now do LFR... i can show u loads of posters who admit they raided Normals in the past and now do LFR... the OP being one! lol
    Fine. Me, my sister, and a whole load of people I've met on BNet.

    The reason I mentioned Sunwell and the like is because you're saying there's evidence that people all ran normals before LFR. No, people generally didn't run anything before LFR.

    Any evidence on this site is anecdotal at best - fansites rarely, if ever, represent the majority of the playerbase.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Methinks u need to re-assess your position... LFR was around in Cata.

    This makes your point totally mute.

    Also, most would argue that LFR was the main cause of destroying 'beer league' raiding (by this i guess u mean pugs). Pugging was alive and well thoughout Wrath. It plummetted when LFR was introduced in Cata, nothing to do with raiding difficulty. LFR took away the need to do pugs so its not surprising pugging took a dive in Cata.

    - - - Updated - - -



    WTF has Sunwell got to do with anything im saying?

    I AM NOT AN LFR HATER FFS!!!!!

    Im showing u facts and actually reading what people r posting... i suggest u do the same.

    Ive shown u evidence to back myself up... READ POSTS ON THIS THREAD.

    I challenged u to show me any poster who says they have never raided at all and now do LFR... i can show u loads of posters who admit they raided Normals in the past and now do LFR... the OP being one! lol
    LFR came out with DS at the very end of cata and helped reduce sub losses. So not it does not make it mute. LFR was NOT the cause of destroying BEER league. Not in anyones mind. Normals being FAR harder than ever before was the cause of beer league going down the pan (along with 10s and 25 being same difficulty lock out and loot). Cata saw far less pugs early on. Towards the end after the nerfs came in it got easier. You really need to check your self before you wreck your self. You have shown no evidence at all. Posts on this thread are peoples own personal views on what LFR is for them and is not representative of the majority of the player base.

  11. #251
    Also, it's "moot", not "mute".

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have to remember that the forums are a huge minority. I don't know the exact number of people who have a WoW account and an account on these forums, but I'll wager it's a pretty small percentage. I personally came here for the guides in the forums. There's actually a pretty big majority of players who don't spend any time whatsoever on forums/guides dissecting their class. For that reason alone, I'd expect you wouldn't find many, if any posting on the forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razia
    Hey Garrosh, stop screaming so loud. No, you can scream, it's alright. Just take it down about... 5% please. Thanks!

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Without LFR, people didn't raid at all. Please keep that in mind.
    Only the lazy and the few who actually don't have time. Clearing every LFR each week isn't a whole lot faster than just doing normals.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by danlathegreat View Post
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have to remember that the forums are a huge minority. I don't know the exact number of people who have a WoW account and an account on these forums, but I'll wager it's a pretty small percentage. I personally came here for the guides in the forums. There's actually a pretty big majority of players who don't spend any time whatsoever on forums/guides dissecting their class. For that reason alone, I'd expect you wouldn't find many, if any posting on the forums.
    Well you see they have the evidence that they and the people they do the content with all do the content so that means everyone plays the same way and that means everyone feels the same way about LFR as they do.

    The amount of players who saw liche King Fight? 10%. The amount who saw Heroic Liche King fight? .078%. Now toss in that "LFR is taking raiders away from the raiding community" argument and that means that less than 10% see end boss fights outside of LFR.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Only the lazy and the few who actually don't have time. Clearing every LFR each week isn't a whole lot faster than just doing normals.
    I thought that Raiding was hard effort that made raiders special. You guys need to get on message, either you can do it easy or its so hard that if you can't do it you are a bad.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Only the lazy and the few who actually don't have time. Clearing every LFR each week isn't a whole lot faster than just doing normals.
    Doing normals is only "faster" when you have downed the encounter in the first place. LFR day 1 and normals day 1 with the same people would be vastly different in terms of clear speed. Yes the queue time can be higher thats a given. But it does beat spamming trade chat all day .

    But for the most part people who didn't raid before can now thanks to LFR it provides them a means of getting into raiding, even if its a easier version.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Only the lazy and the few who actually don't have time. Clearing every LFR each week isn't a whole lot faster than just doing normals.
    Not just lazy. Some people legitimately are less skilled. I can tell you from experience, that some people, no matter how much they research their class, how often you bludgeon them with mechanics, just can't raid as well as most other groups. People often forget that there really are casual players. My guild, for example made it to 5/6N in HoF by the time 5.2 came out. It wasn't that we were lazy, or that we didn't take the time to learn the fights. We just had a few people who couldn't do it. So when you factor the weeks we spent just bashing our heads against Ambershaper, LFR actually ends up alot faster too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razia
    Hey Garrosh, stop screaming so loud. No, you can scream, it's alright. Just take it down about... 5% please. Thanks!

  17. #257
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    tbh casual era was TBC not Wrath or Cata. Casuals just asked for more with every expan.

    If you played in TBC you will remember the phrase "Wellfare epics"

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Murican View Post
    Except LFR is not real raiding, you think you are raiding, but deep inside you know you aren't
    Thats true. The point of WoW is that feeling when you killing a boss you was working on last few weeks. That excitement, this nerdscreams. Game should provide challenge to beat.
    What the point of LFR? Well you will see new bosses, but you will never able to try new mechanics, since 1\2 of them cut off in LFR. You can play, hitting just one button, watching TV at the same time. This is boring as hell, is it not? You may simple watch videos with new bosses from youtube - its exactly the same thing - no challenge at all.
    You know, at the start of MoP I thought the same way as OP does. But very soon I released I can play this way - it is *yaaaaaawn* boring. You should play WoW with normal and hard modes, or you shouldnt play at all.

  19. #259
    Can someone explain to me what was so bad about having multiple tiers of difficulty within the same "item level tier" of raiding? Why was it so bad to have Karazhan for entry raiders with a little bit of Gruuls and Mags for some challenge. Then SSC/TK for the people that wanted to raid hard bosses in a large group with more in depth organization/communication required. And then having Black Temple/Hyjal if you really want to push your limit and finally Sunwell for the really elite players. A raid where you knew you werent going to touch the inside of it without a serious guild that puts in many hours of raiding.

    Why is it so bad to have some exclusively hard content that only a small fraction of the playerbase sees. That is what MMOs were all about in the past. I dont understand when we adopted the "I wanna 'see' that content too, so gimme gimme gimme' attitude. Just because you're in the room when a boss dies and you did almost no work (40k dps, stood in the fire) doesn't mean you experienced the content, its a huge scapegoat and just insulting.

    There was nothing wrong with some raids being easier than others and having ONE difficulty. I have a dream that Tigole some day comes back to run this show and go back to the way raiding used to be, but then again, it's a dream.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    Can someone explain to me what was so bad about having multiple tiers of difficulty within the same "item level tier" of raiding? Why was it so bad to have Karazhan for entry raiders with a little bit of Gruuls and Mags for some challenge. Then SSC/TK for the people that wanted to raid hard bosses in a large group with more in depth organization/communication required. And then having Black Temple/Hyjal if you really want to push your limit and finally Sunwell for the really elite players. A raid where you knew you werent going to touch the inside of it without a serious guild that puts in many hours of raiding.

    Why is it so bad to have some exclusively hard content that only a small fraction of the playerbase sees. That is what MMOs were all about in the past. I dont understand when we adopted the "I wanna 'see' that content too, so gimme gimme gimme' attitude. Just because you're in the room when a boss dies and you did almost no work (40k dps, stood in the fire) doesn't mean you experienced the content, its a huge scapegoat and just insulting.

    There was nothing wrong with some raids being easier than others and having ONE difficulty. I have a dream that Tigole some day comes back to run this show and go back to the way raiding used to be, but then again, it's a dream.
    There is nothing wrong with it until you look at the amount of money spent on that content and the numbers of players seeing said content.

    FYI BT and hyjal were face roll easy with only a couple of bosses really causing some slow down. But back on point Hard content is still here just locked under heroic mode. We now have easier content for people who want to see the same raid/bosses but at a difficulty THEY can complete. For those who can and want to make a go of it you will have flex normal and heroic.

    If you have raiding as it used to be then it will get a budget that will reflect this. So imagine scenario re-using the same models and zones and having bosses in there instead. You won't get unique art bosses etc as the budget will be TINY compared. You cannot justify having such a large budget for a raid when so few people will visit it. Thus LFR justifies having Heroic and Normal raiding.

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