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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.
    blizzard stated that the amount people doing raids even during wrath was low. LFR has seen more people raid than ever before and even then its not the entire playbase. Your asking for evidence on this forum is pure rubbish sorry. Its not going to be good data. This site is a MINORITY in it self and is a FANSITE for wow.... so go figure that most people here would have at some point raided.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Methinks u need to re-assess your position... LFR was around in Cata.

    This makes your point totally mute.

    Also, most would argue that LFR was the main cause of destroying 'beer league' raiding (by this i guess u mean pugs). Pugging was alive and well thoughout Wrath. It plummetted when LFR was introduced in Cata, nothing to do with raiding difficulty. LFR took away the need to do pugs so its not surprising pugging took a dive in Cata.

    - - - Updated - - -



    WTF has Sunwell got to do with anything im saying?

    I AM NOT AN LFR HATER FFS!!!!!

    Im showing u facts and actually reading what people r posting... i suggest u do the same.

    Ive shown u evidence to back myself up... READ POSTS ON THIS THREAD.

    I challenged u to show me any poster who says they have never raided at all and now do LFR... i can show u loads of posters who admit they raided Normals in the past and now do LFR... the OP being one! lol
    Fine. Me, my sister, and a whole load of people I've met on BNet.

    The reason I mentioned Sunwell and the like is because you're saying there's evidence that people all ran normals before LFR. No, people generally didn't run anything before LFR.

    Any evidence on this site is anecdotal at best - fansites rarely, if ever, represent the majority of the playerbase.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Methinks u need to re-assess your position... LFR was around in Cata.

    This makes your point totally mute.

    Also, most would argue that LFR was the main cause of destroying 'beer league' raiding (by this i guess u mean pugs). Pugging was alive and well thoughout Wrath. It plummetted when LFR was introduced in Cata, nothing to do with raiding difficulty. LFR took away the need to do pugs so its not surprising pugging took a dive in Cata.

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    WTF has Sunwell got to do with anything im saying?

    I AM NOT AN LFR HATER FFS!!!!!

    Im showing u facts and actually reading what people r posting... i suggest u do the same.

    Ive shown u evidence to back myself up... READ POSTS ON THIS THREAD.

    I challenged u to show me any poster who says they have never raided at all and now do LFR... i can show u loads of posters who admit they raided Normals in the past and now do LFR... the OP being one! lol
    LFR came out with DS at the very end of cata and helped reduce sub losses. So not it does not make it mute. LFR was NOT the cause of destroying BEER league. Not in anyones mind. Normals being FAR harder than ever before was the cause of beer league going down the pan (along with 10s and 25 being same difficulty lock out and loot). Cata saw far less pugs early on. Towards the end after the nerfs came in it got easier. You really need to check your self before you wreck your self. You have shown no evidence at all. Posts on this thread are peoples own personal views on what LFR is for them and is not representative of the majority of the player base.

  4. #244
    Also, it's "moot", not "mute".

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have to remember that the forums are a huge minority. I don't know the exact number of people who have a WoW account and an account on these forums, but I'll wager it's a pretty small percentage. I personally came here for the guides in the forums. There's actually a pretty big majority of players who don't spend any time whatsoever on forums/guides dissecting their class. For that reason alone, I'd expect you wouldn't find many, if any posting on the forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razia
    Hey Garrosh, stop screaming so loud. No, you can scream, it's alright. Just take it down about... 5% please. Thanks!

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Without LFR, people didn't raid at all. Please keep that in mind.
    Only the lazy and the few who actually don't have time. Clearing every LFR each week isn't a whole lot faster than just doing normals.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by danlathegreat View Post
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have to remember that the forums are a huge minority. I don't know the exact number of people who have a WoW account and an account on these forums, but I'll wager it's a pretty small percentage. I personally came here for the guides in the forums. There's actually a pretty big majority of players who don't spend any time whatsoever on forums/guides dissecting their class. For that reason alone, I'd expect you wouldn't find many, if any posting on the forums.
    Well you see they have the evidence that they and the people they do the content with all do the content so that means everyone plays the same way and that means everyone feels the same way about LFR as they do.

    The amount of players who saw liche King Fight? 10%. The amount who saw Heroic Liche King fight? .078%. Now toss in that "LFR is taking raiders away from the raiding community" argument and that means that less than 10% see end boss fights outside of LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Only the lazy and the few who actually don't have time. Clearing every LFR each week isn't a whole lot faster than just doing normals.
    I thought that Raiding was hard effort that made raiders special. You guys need to get on message, either you can do it easy or its so hard that if you can't do it you are a bad.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Only the lazy and the few who actually don't have time. Clearing every LFR each week isn't a whole lot faster than just doing normals.
    Doing normals is only "faster" when you have downed the encounter in the first place. LFR day 1 and normals day 1 with the same people would be vastly different in terms of clear speed. Yes the queue time can be higher thats a given. But it does beat spamming trade chat all day .

    But for the most part people who didn't raid before can now thanks to LFR it provides them a means of getting into raiding, even if its a easier version.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Only the lazy and the few who actually don't have time. Clearing every LFR each week isn't a whole lot faster than just doing normals.
    Not just lazy. Some people legitimately are less skilled. I can tell you from experience, that some people, no matter how much they research their class, how often you bludgeon them with mechanics, just can't raid as well as most other groups. People often forget that there really are casual players. My guild, for example made it to 5/6N in HoF by the time 5.2 came out. It wasn't that we were lazy, or that we didn't take the time to learn the fights. We just had a few people who couldn't do it. So when you factor the weeks we spent just bashing our heads against Ambershaper, LFR actually ends up alot faster too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razia
    Hey Garrosh, stop screaming so loud. No, you can scream, it's alright. Just take it down about... 5% please. Thanks!

  10. #250
    Deleted
    tbh casual era was TBC not Wrath or Cata. Casuals just asked for more with every expan.

    If you played in TBC you will remember the phrase "Wellfare epics"

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Murican View Post
    Except LFR is not real raiding, you think you are raiding, but deep inside you know you aren't
    Thats true. The point of WoW is that feeling when you killing a boss you was working on last few weeks. That excitement, this nerdscreams. Game should provide challenge to beat.
    What the point of LFR? Well you will see new bosses, but you will never able to try new mechanics, since 1\2 of them cut off in LFR. You can play, hitting just one button, watching TV at the same time. This is boring as hell, is it not? You may simple watch videos with new bosses from youtube - its exactly the same thing - no challenge at all.
    You know, at the start of MoP I thought the same way as OP does. But very soon I released I can play this way - it is *yaaaaaawn* boring. You should play WoW with normal and hard modes, or you shouldnt play at all.

  12. #252
    Can someone explain to me what was so bad about having multiple tiers of difficulty within the same "item level tier" of raiding? Why was it so bad to have Karazhan for entry raiders with a little bit of Gruuls and Mags for some challenge. Then SSC/TK for the people that wanted to raid hard bosses in a large group with more in depth organization/communication required. And then having Black Temple/Hyjal if you really want to push your limit and finally Sunwell for the really elite players. A raid where you knew you werent going to touch the inside of it without a serious guild that puts in many hours of raiding.

    Why is it so bad to have some exclusively hard content that only a small fraction of the playerbase sees. That is what MMOs were all about in the past. I dont understand when we adopted the "I wanna 'see' that content too, so gimme gimme gimme' attitude. Just because you're in the room when a boss dies and you did almost no work (40k dps, stood in the fire) doesn't mean you experienced the content, its a huge scapegoat and just insulting.

    There was nothing wrong with some raids being easier than others and having ONE difficulty. I have a dream that Tigole some day comes back to run this show and go back to the way raiding used to be, but then again, it's a dream.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    Can someone explain to me what was so bad about having multiple tiers of difficulty within the same "item level tier" of raiding? Why was it so bad to have Karazhan for entry raiders with a little bit of Gruuls and Mags for some challenge. Then SSC/TK for the people that wanted to raid hard bosses in a large group with more in depth organization/communication required. And then having Black Temple/Hyjal if you really want to push your limit and finally Sunwell for the really elite players. A raid where you knew you werent going to touch the inside of it without a serious guild that puts in many hours of raiding.

    Why is it so bad to have some exclusively hard content that only a small fraction of the playerbase sees. That is what MMOs were all about in the past. I dont understand when we adopted the "I wanna 'see' that content too, so gimme gimme gimme' attitude. Just because you're in the room when a boss dies and you did almost no work (40k dps, stood in the fire) doesn't mean you experienced the content, its a huge scapegoat and just insulting.

    There was nothing wrong with some raids being easier than others and having ONE difficulty. I have a dream that Tigole some day comes back to run this show and go back to the way raiding used to be, but then again, it's a dream.
    There is nothing wrong with it until you look at the amount of money spent on that content and the numbers of players seeing said content.

    FYI BT and hyjal were face roll easy with only a couple of bosses really causing some slow down. But back on point Hard content is still here just locked under heroic mode. We now have easier content for people who want to see the same raid/bosses but at a difficulty THEY can complete. For those who can and want to make a go of it you will have flex normal and heroic.

    If you have raiding as it used to be then it will get a budget that will reflect this. So imagine scenario re-using the same models and zones and having bosses in there instead. You won't get unique art bosses etc as the budget will be TINY compared. You cannot justify having such a large budget for a raid when so few people will visit it. Thus LFR justifies having Heroic and Normal raiding.

  14. #254
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    Fine. Me, my sister, and a whole load of people I've met on BNet.
    And i can list u more than that who i know were raiders and now settle for LFR...

    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    The reason I mentioned Sunwell and the like is because you're saying there's evidence that people all ran normals before LFR. No, people generally didn't run anything before LFR.

    Any evidence on this site is anecdotal at best - fansites rarely, if ever, represent the majority of the playerbase.
    Sunwell is probably the most inaccessible raid when the raid was current. Attunement and progression were key factors stopping the vast majority of players to even access the raid. This is totally different to raids since Wrath which u could just turn up and enter. So judging the amount of players accessing these raids is... well, Bullshit, to put it simply.

    I will repeat for you I AM NOT A LFR HATER, therefore i am not against it.

    I am simply discussing the OP of this thread.. whose saying he gave up doing Normals and is now doing LFR.

    And im saying that he represents a very large section of the raiding population who have now abandoned Raiding and r now doing LFR. This is proven by the fact the overall raiding community has plummeted since LFR introduction in Cata and by the large amount of threads like these.

    The large drop in raiding community is definitely connected in some way to LFR... LFR is not the only reason by a long shot but its certainly been a contributary factor in the decline of the raiding community.

  15. #255
    Personally, I don't find LFR very fullfilling. However, between School/Work/Family I don't have time to actually raid. Where does this leave me? Running LFR for a couple of clears, wishing I was 18 again and could raid 5 nights a week, and unsubbing from boredom (because if I'm not raiding, why play?). I have friends that buy me game time just to have me play with them, but if it wasn't for that I would be subbing few and far between (new content patches/lore/achievements to whore). LFR didn't kill raiding for me, honestly if not for LFR I would have quit for good. Atleast it gives me a way to continue the story I've followed for 8 years now.

  16. #256
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    So not it does not make it mute. LFR was NOT the cause of destroying BEER league. Not in anyones mind.
    Care to explain how u know this to be true?

    Some evidence maybe?

    We all agree that pugging died out in Cata, most agree that pugging died out when LFR was introduced in Cata. How are these facts not connected?

    Ill give u a clue before u embarress yourself, pugging is ALWAYS quiet at the beginning of an expansion, its always popular from about halfway through to the end. Pugging in Wrath was dead for the first half of that expansion for example.

    So your connection to raid difficulty is actually totally bullshit tbh... it was EQUALLY as difficult at the early stages of Wrath for puggers to get rolling.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    And i can list u more than that who i know were raiders and now settle for LFR...



    Sunwell is probably the most inaccessible raid when the raid was current. Attunement and progression were key factors stopping the vast majority of players to even access the raid. This is totally different to raids since Wrath which u could just turn up and enter. So judging the amount of players accessing these raids is... well, Bullshit, to put it simply.

    I will repeat for you I AM NOT A LFR HATER, therefore i am not against it.

    I am simply discussing the OP of this thread.. whose saying he gave up doing Normals and is now doing LFR.

    And im saying that he represents a very large section of the raiding population who have now abandoned Raiding and r now doing LFR. This is proven by the fact the overall raiding community has plummeted since LFR introduction in Cata and by the large amount of threads like these.

    The large drop in raiding community is definitely connected in some way to LFR... LFR is not the only reason by a long shot but its certainly been a contributary factor in the decline of the raiding community.
    You are saying its a very large section who jumped shipped with what evidence exactly? Please don't use posters on this forum as we're a clear minority. You need to get numbers and sources and provide them please. I will happily discuss it when you do.

    There is a connection between raid participation dropping and LFR. But LFR is not the cause. You must understand in Wrath we had 10 and 25 man raids that had separate difficulty lockouts and LOOT. Cata gave 10 and 25 the same lock out and loot and tried to give a similar difficulty. Heroic mode was the same for both modes. LFR was brought out late Cata and showed a HUGE increase in people raiding more than _EVER_ before. (you can look up all the data from blue posts on this btw).

    Flex mode is the new thing to help out raiding. There are players who want something more difficult than LFR but not as hard as normal mode is. Also with the flexability of this mode they can have an adjustable raid size as well. Prior to this pugs and casual raiding guilds saw a decline and yes may have moved into LFR as they simply could not clear Normal mode. (again blizzard stated this and pointed out towards horridon N not being cleared by a lot of guilds and saying flex mode is for them)

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Care to explain how u know this to be true?

    Some evidence maybe?

    We all agree that pugging died out in Cata, most agree that pugging died out when LFR was introduced in Cata. How are these facts not connected?

    Ill give u a clue before u embarress yourself, pugging is ALWAYS quiet at the beginning of an expansion, its always popular from about halfway through to the end. Pugging in Wrath was dead for the first half of that expansion for example.

    So your connection to raid difficulty is actually totally bullshit tbh... it was EQUALLY as difficult at the early stages of Wrath for puggers to get rolling.
    Was it? I remember pugging Naxx 10 full clears and 25 up to Saph before Ulduar came out. I did it on crappy Iraqi internet that had 900-1800ms latency on a good day. Maybe it was just my realm, but pugging was huge all through Wrath. People in my guild got Obsidian Slayer in a pug.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Care to explain how u know this to be true?

    Some evidence maybe?

    We all agree that pugging died out in Cata, most agree that pugging died out when LFR was introduced in Cata. How are these facts not connected?

    Ill give u a clue before u embarress yourself, pugging is ALWAYS quiet at the beginning of an expansion, its always popular from about halfway through to the end. Pugging in Wrath was dead for the first half of that expansion for example.

    So your connection to raid difficulty is actually totally bullshit tbh... it was EQUALLY as difficult at the early stages of Wrath for puggers to get rolling.
    Evidence? its been stated by blues enough times (see my prior post)

    You have embarrassed your self enough sorry to say. Pugs are slightly quieter at the start of an expac BUT pugs tried to get going at the start of cata and failed miserably on the most part. The difficulty was HUGE compared to normal modes in wrath. 10man casual guilds got hit by a lot of brick walls and thats why the content in normal mode was nerfed quite early on the same as heroic dungeons.

    its not bullshit if you had a modicum of logic. Wrath raiding at the start was face roll easy and we had a pug on day 3 of Wrath release on Balnazzar EU I just dinged level 80 and members of my guild were already in a pug and clearing Nax 10. First 2 weeks in and I saw numerous pugs. That server was low population as well. Its anecdotal evidence yes but it shows that it was do-able early wrath and it was a lot easier than previous raiding content.

  20. #260
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    You are saying its a very large section who jumped shipped with what evidence exactly? Please don't use posters on this forum as we're a clear minority. You need to get numbers and sources and provide them please. I will happily discuss it when you do.
    And yet u cannot provide data or figures to the contrary...

    U have stated "blue posters said so" and thats about it.

    I am actually not in disagreement that a large amount of people using LFR are players who never raided b4. Im just also saying that a large amount of LFR players r also raiders who have dropped out and abandonded raiding.

    U still havent addressed the fact that the raiding community is declining fast. Ru really trying to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with LFR?

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