I always wanted only to see the content

[khalltusk]

LMAO raids were not hard in Crapaclysm and on my server there were A LOT of pugs going on.

They were not hard for you or I. They were harder than Wrath and pugs on most severs early on failed. Blizzard admitted as much and we saw a LOT of nerfs to heroic content as well so other guilds could attempt to clear the content.

You do know this right? If you find something easier good for you. I enjoyed the difficulty in Cata but changed jobs and didnt find time to do the raiding I was used to and quit. Only came back because of the ease of using LFR while its face roll easy I am a bit of a lore nerd and love collecting gear for transmog.

On Darksorrow EU for example a lot of pugs fell over (switched there for cata) at the start as they simply could not beat the encounters blizzard admitted the tuning was quite high hence the nerfs (same for heroic dungeons).

[Deleted]

You need to stop using this rediculous argument, it holds just as much validity as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger and will whoop the others daddy. Unless you know every player and can clearly categorize raiders who quit because of LFR than the rest IT IS NOT FACT OR DATA!!!

Edited: Sorry my web browser went nutso and repeated a lot.

I was showing exactly how stupid that point was myself! lol

He used anecdotal evidence that he knew players who did, and i used my point to prove its stupid to make such statements.... sheesh i know 'people i know' is anecdotal which is why i dont use that argument.

[TyrantWave]

My GM has a wife and kids, job, his wife goes to college...........and oh yeah we only raid 2 nights a week for a total of 6 hrs, you stereotype raiders as people with no families, jobs, life outside the game and even in BC my raid leader had a wife and job! Maybe you should stop stereotyping just to try and validate your excuse as to why you don't raid and just admit maybe it's too hard for you.

I don't have time to do organised raiding because I never know when I'll be free. Simple as that.

And yet before LFR there were more people playing, so SOMETHING must have kept them playing and having fun!

Sure, but that's in no way related to LFR itself. People started *leaving* en masse in Cata. LFR patch slowed that down significantly. This has been stated by Blizz.

We know that during the end of Wrath, and first two major patches of Cata, subs had started dropping, quickly.
We also know that when the LFR patch came out, these losses slowed.
We also know that most of this years sub losses were in China.

Those are the things we know in relation to subs and LFR. Anything else is conjecture.

I was showing exactly how stupid that point was myself! lol

He used anecdotal evidence that he knew players who did, and i used my point to prove its stupid to make such statements.... sheesh i know 'people i know' is anecdotal which is why i dont use that argument.

You asked me to: "... show me any poster who says they have never raided at all and now do LFR", and I did. I also said in the same post that anything you or I say on this forum is anecdotal at best.

[Deleted]

If ToT was it's own super-hard zone it'd be different. Say what you want about LFR!=Normal!=Heroic, it's still the same Zone.

Oh you mean like a raid exclusively for the "hardcore" (people that do nothing but play wow in thier spare time basically)

This would be a bad move by blizz as can be seen with sunwell.

Personally i wouldn't care but i cerainly would not be able to partake due to work and Dota 2 >.>

[Deleted]

I have addressed the fact the raiding community has dwindled a bit in Normal mode. You should it i've said multiple times. raiding numbers went down quite sharply due to the change in difficulty during Cata. 10/25 man sharing the same difficulty loot and lockout. 10man casual guilds got hit hard and pugs often failed to down more than a couple of bosses. LFR was brought in to give these people a way of raiding as well as the people who never raided before. Now blizzard plans on bringing in Flex mode to give the beer league raiders and pugs a proper method of raiding thats under Normal mode but more difficult than LFR. LFR was the only alternative for casual raiders thats why some peopel only did that and not normal mode was it was vastly more difficult, Hence flex mode.....

Do u really think LFR didnt have anything to do with raiding guilds decline from Cata onwards?

Im curious about this '10man casual guilds' u talk about in Cata, they 'got hit hard' at the beginning of Cata. Pretty much every guild and their dog was a 25man guild at the switchover from Wrath. And all the 10mans that existed had either stepped down from 25man to 10man or were newly created 10man progression guilds. Conclusion, there wasnt much of a 10man casual guild community coming from Wrath to Cata, so why even mention it?

U still havent addressed whether or not u think LFR has effected the overall raiding community at all... cos afterall that was my MAIN point... so ill leave it here for u again.

I am actually not in disagreement that a large amount of people using LFR are players who never raided b4. Im just also saying that a large amount of LFR players r also raiders who have dropped out and abandonded raiding.

U still havent addressed the fact that the raiding community is declining fast. Ru really trying to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with LFR?

Well?

[Deleted]

I have yet to see a HC raider moan about LFR, all this LFR bullshit is coming from people who raid LFR and normals then the few who try to do heroics but cant really do them.

As a Heroic raider who raids during progress 5+ days a week, there is nothing wrong with LFR, Infact it was a good, simple way to gear up alts before throwing heroic gear at them.

[Deleted]

I'm glad you're enjoying the game

I don't think LFR has much to do with the subscription loss, but I would like to see Blizz do something that heals up a bit of the wound.

[DeadmanWalking]

Which means nothing here is "emperical" data. Unless Blizzard release numbers. Hell..the last number I remember was: 500 000 in normals and heroics in DS pre LFR and 2 million with LFR in DS. Posted here on MMO Champion. And that is easily a year gone.

I forgot the name of the webpage that tracks raiding guilds that go into Raids and the content they down but they stated that the percentage of players at wows subscription peak who experienced the lich King fight (not defeated the king, just experienced it) was 10%, and the amount that experienced the heroic fight was .078%. So 10% and then subtract all these raiders who quit over LFR, over Cataclysm, over burn out, overwhat ever then its completely reasonable to say the raiding community is less than 10% of the population UNLESS LFR has actually led more people to join Raid Guilds.

Knowing people who did something just proves that the people you know are a teeny tiny sample of which all belong to the same social group as you. When Third graders argue over whose daddy is bigger they operate under the assumption that daddy is going to beat up someone elses daddy, but no daddy ever beat up another daddy over their kids arguing over whose daddy was bigger.

[Seefer]

I don't have time to do organised raiding because I never know when I'll be free. Simple as that.




Sure, but that's in no way related to LFR itself. People started *leaving* en masse in Cata. LFR patch slowed that down significantly. This has been stated by Blizz.

We know that during the end of Wrath, and first two major patches of Cata, subs had started dropping, quickly.
We also know that when the LFR patch came out, these losses slowed.
We also know that most of this years sub losses were in China.

Those are the things we know in relation to subs and LFR. Anything else is conjecture.



You asked me to: "... show me any poster who says they have never raided at all and now do LFR", and I did. I also said in the same post that anything you or I say on this forum is anecdotal at best.

2 of my guildies work retail and never know when they will be available, still they are doing heroic raids with us, and as for your other "points" saying LFR slowed it is a fucking joke, people that wanted to leave left and there were people like me who said "Ok, I will wait and see what next expansion brings before I quit seeing as I am already towards the end of this piece of shit".

[Kuniku]

I don't have time for the kind of raiding I enjoy most (heroic progression raiding preferably) so I play through LFR a few times to see the raids, see the bosses and experience the story. But it doesn't captivate me because of the lack of challenge. But then if you add any challenge into the equation it all goes to shit because nobody talks to anyone else etc...

[TyrantWave]

2 of my guildies work retail and never know when they will be available, still they are doing heroic raids with us, and as for your other "points" saying LFR slowed it is a fucking joke, people that wanted to leave left and there were people like me who said "Ok, I will wait and see what next expansion brings before I quit seeing as I am already towards the end of this piece of shit".

Good for your guildies I guess. Not been my such luck.

Did I say LFR slowed the losses? No. I said at the release of the LFR patch, losses slowed. Whatever reasoning for people leaving or staying is down to the individual.

[Kuniku]

2 of my guildies work retail and never know when they will be available, still they are doing heroic raids with us, and as for your other "points" saying LFR slowed it is a fucking joke, people that wanted to leave left and there were people like me who said "Ok, I will wait and see what next expansion brings before I quit seeing as I am already towards the end of this piece of shit".

most raiding guilds I've been in have always had a set raid schedule with minimum weekly attendence targets. Ain't no way I could commit to that kinda schedule these days with everything else going on =(

[zaneosak]

Oh you mean like a raid exclusively for the "hardcore" (people that do nothing but play wow in thier spare time basically)

This would be a bad move by blizz as can be seen with sunwell.

Personally i wouldn't care but i cerainly would not be able to partake due to work and Dota 2 >.>

Yeah ... I guess my love for attunements and long, journeys thru progression paths from everquest is coming back out. I miss those days. I wish there was attunement quests and having to gear every person up again~

[khalltusk]

Do u really think LFR didnt have anything to do with raiding guilds decline from Cata onwards?

Im curious about this '10man casual guilds' u talk about in Cata, they 'got hit hard' at the beginning of Cata. Pretty much every guild and their dog was a 25man guild at the switchover from Wrath. And all the 10mans that existed had either stepped down from 10man to 25man or were newly created 10man progression guilds. Conclusion, there wasnt much of a 10man casual guild community coming from Wrath to Cata, so why even mention it?

U still havent addressed whether or not u think LFR has effected the overall raiding community at all... cos afterall that was my MAIN point... so ill leave it here for u again.



Well?

Are you actually kidding me? There was a LOT of 10man casual raiding guilds (10man being far easier than 25man in wrath) We had off night raids in 10man while we were doing ulduar/totc 25 hardmodes and it was a lot easier.

I have addressed your points on LFR and its affects you are just not bloody reading it.

LFR - was a reaction to the lack of people raiding (those who stopped raiding normal modes because it was too hard or not enough time etc). It has something to do with raiding guilds but not in the manner you think of. When 10 and 25 shared their lock out and difficulties it affected a lot of casual guilds directly. Guilds used to an easier difficulty found them selves struggling (go look up the numerous blue posts on this old topic).

LFR was brought in to help players get into raiding and it has done that. Some players may have migrated to LFR from normal and vice versa. Those numbers I am not privy to and if you can provide those numbers i'd happily discuss it but frankly I am unsure how many have moved to LFR from normal (thus reducing normal raiding pool) do both lfr/normal/hc or moved from LFR to normal/hc.

LFR has helped raiding by bringing in a LARGER pool of people into raiding than ever before (blizzards on data provided this on their blue posts I think someone posted something about the DS numbers as well).

LFR is not the bringer of death for normal mode raiding. Its difficulty compared to wraths is. Why else do you think Flex mode raiding has been brought in to help some guilds?

[DeadmanWalking]

Do u really think LFR didnt have anything to do with raiding guilds decline from Cata onwards?

Im curious about this '10man casual guilds' u talk about in Cata, they 'got hit hard' at the beginning of Cata. Pretty much every guild and their dog was a 25man guild at the switchover from Wrath. And all the 10mans that existed had either stepped down from 10man to 25man or were newly created 10man progression guilds. Conclusion, there wasnt much of a 10man casual guild community coming from Wrath to Cata, so why even mention it?

U still havent addressed whether or not u think LFR has effected the overall raiding community at all... cos afterall that was my MAIN point... so ill leave it here for u again.



Well?

You suggest that getting rid of LFR will send people back to Raiding Guilds, and yes you will pick up a small percentage of players who can actually raid because now raiding is the easiest path to seeing content.

What you won't get is those who dont have the time to raid.
You won't get those who don't want Raiding Guild politics/drama.
You won't want those who are deemed unfit for service.

These are the majority of players. Blizzard will have to create more content to keep these people occupied. Currently LFR serves that purpose and LFR directly lifts from Raid production resources. Create Raid content, stamp it, nerf it and produce it. Creating content to keep 90% playerbase occupied wil mean Less Raid Content Less Often. Instead of 40+ raid bosses in MoP you would get 20-24 Raid bosses. Half the content. If you want half the content half as often then are you really helping the Raid content? And dont give me this crap about tossing money at it, this is not how MMO's work, Production schedules require far more than throwing money at the problem. If that was the case then we would have tons of new 5 man dungeons every expansion. Currently anything new we have gotten outside of Throne of Thunder is just recycled art resources, scenarios and even world bosses.

LFR haters don't want to get rid of LFR to get people into 'real content', they just want to go back to being the bouncer who gets to decide who experiences content so they can feel special about what they do in wow and its not a legitimate reason.

[khalltusk]

You suggest that getting rid of LFR will send people back to Raiding Guilds, and yes you will pick up a small percentage of players who can actually raid because now raiding is the easiest path to seeing content.

What you won't get is those who dont have the time to raid.
You won't get those who don't want Raiding Guild politics/drama.
You won't want those who are deemed unfit for service.

These are the majority of players. Blizzard will have to create more content to keep these people occupied. Currently LFR serves that purpose and LFR directly lifts from Raid production resources. Create Raid content, stamp it, nerf it and produce it. Creating content to keep 90% playerbase occupied wil mean Less Raid Content Less Often. Instead of 40+ raid bosses in MoP you would get 20-24 Raid bosses. Half the content. If you want half the content half as often then are you really helping the Raid content? And dont give me this crap about tossing money at it, this is not how MMO's work, Production schedules require far more than throwing money at the problem. If that was the case then we would have tons of new 5 man dungeons every expansion. Currently anything new we have gotten outside of Throne of Thunder is just recycled art resources, scenarios and even world bosses.

LFR haters don't want to get rid of LFR to get people into 'real content', they just want to go back to being the bouncer who gets to decide who experiences content so they can feel special about what they do in wow and its not a legitimate reason.

Slightly off topic (or possibly on topic). When some pugs used to form do you remember people requiring you to link the achievement for clearing the dungeon and would not let that character in unless you had cleared that raid to begin with! (not to mention gear score!) If I wanted to do a pug on my alt when it was a slow off night raid day in our guild it was rather annoying. Most of the time I just formed a pug my self for Nax or Totc and didnt put down any requirements. Hilarious though as often got some really new/bad players but it was a lot of fun.

[Deleted]

Are you actually kidding me? There was a LOT of 10man casual raiding guilds (10man being far easier than 25man in wrath) We had off night raids in 10man while we were doing ulduar/totc 25 hardmodes and it was a lot easier.

I have addressed your points on LFR and its affects you are just not bloody reading it.

LFR - was a reaction to the lack of people raiding (those who stopped raiding normal modes because it was too hard or not enough time etc). It has something to do with raiding guilds but not in the manner you think of. When 10 and 25 shared their lock out and difficulties it affected a lot of casual guilds directly. Guilds used to an easier difficulty found them selves struggling (go look up the numerous blue posts on this old topic).

LFR was brought in to help players get into raiding and it has done that. Some players may have migrated to LFR from normal and vice versa. Those numbers I am not privy to and if you can provide those numbers i'd happily discuss it but frankly I am unsure how many have moved to LFR from normal (thus reducing normal raiding pool) do both lfr/normal/hc or moved from LFR to normal/hc.

LFR has helped raiding by bringing in a LARGER pool of people into raiding than ever before (blizzards on data provided this on their blue posts I think someone posted something about the DS numbers as well).

LFR is not the bringer of death for normal mode raiding. Its difficulty compared to wraths is. Why else do you think Flex mode raiding has been brought in to help some guilds?

And u still IGNORE my question! lol

I take your views on what LFR has done for the game overall, i can fully understand where ur coming from. But u havent addressed my question, in fact ur intentionally ignoring it.

DO U THINK LFR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DECLINE IN THE RAIDING COMMUNITY?

- - - Updated - - -

You suggest that getting rid of LFR will send people back to Raiding Guilds, and yes you will pick up a small percentage of players who can actually raid because now raiding is the easiest path to seeing content..

FFS

Where have i said anything about remving LFR?!?!?!?!

I AM NOT AGAINST LFR!!!!!!

[khalltusk]

And u still IGNORE my question! lol

I take your views on what LFR has done for the game overall, i can fully understand where ur coming from. But u havent addressed my question, in fact ur intentionally ignoring it.

DO U THINK LFR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DECLINE IN THE RAIDING COMMUNITY?

- - - Updated - - -



FFS

Where have i said anything about remving LFR?!?!?!?!

I AM NOT AGAINST LFR!!!!!!

The hell are you on about. I answered you. If you want a yes or no answer its a no. It has something to do with it but its not the cause of the raiding loss. I outlined why its not earlier. I've not ignored your question you failed to understand my answer or I failed to answer it in way you understand.

[DeadmanWalking]

Yeah ... I guess my love for attunements and long, journeys thru progression paths from everquest is coming back out. I miss those days. I wish there was attunement quests and having to gear every person up again~

The only part of attunement people liked was that it excluded others from the content. Nobody liked going back and doing attunements for others once they got theirs. If a new member joined a raid guild and the Guild Master asked for help attuning them the members would run for the exit button because they had to chew off their grannies bunyons. High end Guilds disliked attunements so much that they would poach players from lesser guilds rather than attune someone, leaving the lesser guild with the problem of attuning someone else that the high end guild would just end up poaching again. Attunement worked just fine if you were the one poaching attuned players.

There were attunements where a 5 man group would go do a dungeon and on one of the 20 random bosses an item would drop for one person. Then the dungeon would have to be cleared again. If someone got their item and ditched the group someone would have to go back to town and shout for a while for someone else to join them in hopes that the process would not repeat over and over again each time someone got their item. Then another group would have to be formed later in the attunement to get an item off the 20th boss and you had to hope someone didnt ditch you before you got to that 20th boss.

Attunements only worked for those who were attuned, once you were attuned you cringed at the ideal of attuning someone else. Attunements also made it hard to pick up a pugger who was attuned, had the experience and was not spoken for by another guild. This meant you had to keep benchwarmers on hand and -everyone- loves being a benchwarmer, "Sorry we don't need you for the 5th week in a row but keep coming just in case!".

It also meant you wouldn't have alts that were raid ready to fulfill a specific role. On Horridon Normal I can switch to Mistweaver which has a clear advantage in this fight over other healers, this wouldnt be possible with attunements, but is with LFR because my Mistweaver can be raid ready in LFR gear. Thats an advantage for my Guild that would not be possible with attunements.

[DeadmanWalking]

And u still IGNORE my question! lol

I take your views on what LFR has done for the game overall, i can fully understand where ur coming from. But u havent addressed my question, in fact ur intentionally ignoring it.

DO U THINK LFR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DECLINE IN THE RAIDING COMMUNITY?

- - - Updated - - -



FFS

Where have i said anything about remving LFR?!?!?!?!

I AM NOT AGAINST LFR!!!!!!

Yes you are, you just are not out and out saying you are against LFR. Its like a wingnut political guy who says he belongs to the independant party because he doesn't publicly want to take a stand but you obviously do stand on one side of the fence and you're not as open minded as you like to believe you are.