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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    People have pointed out the logic REPEATEDLY but you guys just sit there a pour out the excuses like it was going out of style, so why bother? But for luls I will say it again..............subscribers were on the increase during the times you say "People didn't raid" and there was LESS to do for people who didn't raid or pvp, now the invent of LFR and voila subs tank, sorry but I don't believe in coincidence nor do I buy into Blizzards PR bullshit, as for your statement on Crapaclysm? THE WHOLE EXPANSION WAS A STINKFEST! The dungeons weren't too hard, they just required a crap load of CC, they were TEDIOUS not difficult in the least, NOBODY liked them not even people like me!
    So, your solution is, instead of giving accessible content to this group of people, rather, you just don't give them content at all? What is your solution? And you think this will increase subscribers? and it's not just me saying people didn't raid then. People didn't raid then. It's a damned fact. Historically, the amount of people raiding is a minority. Even the people raiding LFR isn't that large of a number in the grand scheme (But it's still a hellishly big number compared to the past.)


    So, whatever was drawing these people in, it sure a shell wasn't raiding.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murican View Post
    Except LFR is not real raiding, you think you are raiding, but deep inside you know you aren't
    Deep in my heart I know I am raiding on the easiest difficulty level with some idiots who either afk or have no idea what they are doing. However I perform well on my part and thats a reason I feel accomplished and get rewarded accordingly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Aren't games usually things that people enjoy playing? If that is the case then why is your goal to play the game less?
    Because people have other things to do in life or maybe just play other games at the same time while enjoying wow.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Even tho the evidence shows the oposite?

    This thread is a prime example... the most common admission is from players that raided Normals previously who now do LFR instead.

    Show me the posts from guys who never ever raided whatsoever in the past and now raid LFR.... thats right its a clear minority.
    Millions didn't raid normal or above. Millions do LFR.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Wowprogress?

    Even that needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Now we have 30 000 guilds in normal modes. In ICC you see 62 000. A drop by 50% one may cry. But: That was after 9 months, that was with weekly raidquests, that was with a 30% buff. I argue that buff was the equivalent to todays LFR.
    Its data, far better data than 'I know more people than you do and my daddy will beat up your daddy'. Its the only data we have access to and as such its worthy of mentioning. Assuming everyone plays the same way you do and thinks the same way you do is self-centered and flawed. Assuming everyone quit playing wow over some function you don't like is also flawed.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Good post OP - LFR was created for people like you, and it seems to work as intended from that prespective.

    LFR was not designed to replace normal raids for people who prefer that playstyle. Instead, it was intended to do exactly what you described.
    Indeed I hope blizzard doesn't listen to the people who QQ about it to get removed and keep adding new raids into LFR as long as the game keeps going.
    Even though flex mode might be a better alternative than LFR for some people including myself.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    My GM has a wife and kids, job, his wife goes to college...........and oh yeah we only raid 2 nights a week for a total of 6 hrs, you stereotype raiders as people with no families, jobs, life outside the game and even in BC my raid leader had a wife and job! Maybe you should stop stereotyping just to try and validate your excuse as to why you don't raid and just admit maybe it's too hard for you.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And yet before LFR there were more people playing, so SOMETHING must have kept them playing and having fun!
    it sure as hell wasn't raiding :x


    I think a big thing to keep in mind that back in the day, the game had massive subscriber churn. Blizzard has said this. They've said there's much more people who USED to play WoW, but no longer do, than there are people currently playing WoW.

    So, we don't even really know if people were even kept entertained, or if a whole bunch of people just came, and left, came, and left, came, and left, and once the game lost it's mainstream popularity, that didn't just stop, and Blizzard is desperately trying to get that back and to hold on to what it does have.

    Point is, we don't have enough information.


    All I can say, though, is that MMOs rely on giving players things to do within their capabilities.

    Giving the average player less to do isn't going to increase numbers.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    The hell are you on about. I answered you. If you want a yes or no answer its a no. It has something to do with it but its not the cause of the raiding loss. I outlined why its not earlier. I've not ignored your question you failed to understand my answer or I failed to answer it in way you understand.
    I never asked if its 'the cause', i asked if it has any connection to it.

    Well i think most will disagree that LFR has no bearing on the plight of the raiding community right now. Raiding is being hit from many directions atm and LFR is a factor.

    The posts ive read on these forums from raiders all highlight issues which can be connected to LFR. The main one being not many players r even around applying to guilds. The other main point is the lack of skill of players stepping out of LFR, basically they dont learn anything. The third obvious problem coming from LFR is that LFR is an ALTERNATIVE to raiding properly in a guild. Its in direct competition for players basically speaking. Players will choose to do one or the other, most appear to be choosing LFR these days.

    If u cannot admit these 3 factors affect the raiding community then u must be blind.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by koawinter View Post
    What's with all the "technically" jargon? Everyone knows what raiding "technically" means. No one can deny what raiding really is though in WoW. It's coming together with friends or people that you enjoy playing with and doing something that cannot be done solo. LFR in the "technical" sense can be described as raiding, but not in it's feel. LFR hardly has the feel of a raid.

    LFR requires a few people that know what they're doing and the rest that can do whatever they want. As a tank, I know the fights and do them as required, but it really doesn't require the other tank to do too much. As a healer (in heroic gear) I can go in and solo heal the whole instance, and it doesn't require the other healers to do too much. Because of this, the feeling of LFR is not any where close to real raiding.
    Except people in heroic raiding gear is not the intended audience. That's like saying an heroic geared tank can clear an heroic dungeon, therefore it's really not group content.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I never asked if its 'the cause', i asked if it has any connection to it.

    Well i think most will disagree that LFR has no bearing on the plight of the raiding community right now. Raiding is being hit from many directions atm and LFR is a factor.

    The posts ive read on these forums from raiders all highlight issues which can be connected to LFR. The main one being not many players r even around applying to guilds. The other main point is the lack of skill of players stepping out of LFR, basically they dont learn anything. The third obvious problem coming from LFR is that LFR is an ALTERNATIVE to raiding properly in a guild. Its in direct competition for players basically speaking. Players will choose to do one or the other, most appear to be choosing LFR these days.

    If u cannot admit these 3 factors affect raiding then u must be blind.
    You have just proved that you did not read my posts! :P

    I said no to your question asking if LFR has nothing to do with the decline in raiding. I said it has something to do with it. I cannot say how much as we do not have the numbers for this.

    you are right that there is no main alternative to raiding normal/hc other than LFR. Flex should help this somewhat though (promote pugs and casual raid guilds) But this may affect Normal modes again but we won't know this until much later.

    As for lack of people applying to guilds no idea on that one do you have numbers to back it up or just anecdotal evidence? Lack of skilled players again what do we have to prove this? If you mean by seeing the amount of unskilled players in LFR im afraid thats not true. You will just simply see the wider player base (thus lower skilled player base in most cases) in LFR. Before you had gates to stop them raiding. Aka guilds and raid leaders/attunements etc.

    I think LFR is not the largest cause in normal participation dropping. That was the adjustments made in Cata to normal mode raiding in 10/25 man. LFR came along as a band aid to give players a way to raid as Normal mode became harder for them and thus less accessible (until the nerfs). It has some impact I don't think anyone is denying it. But for the most part its a fairly positive impact due to the amount of people now "raiding".

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Millions didn't raid normal or above. Millions do LFR.
    You seriously overestimate the will power of people.

    If you added an option to start a character in max level gear millions will do it. It will be the norm.
    That doesn't dictate if it's a good or bad system.
    Christ, I'm really sick of this "majority" speak.

    But on the topic of "subs are dropping because of LFR," I agree it's a little far fetched to say that.
    There are hundreds of reasons why people leave.
    Yet it was has been repeated and repeated and repeated that Cata sub drops were a cause of hard content.

    See the only reason it's even being discussed is because LFR huggers and Blizzard all think it was the root problem.
    So naturally if X is true (which is not but you all seem to think it is) then the opposite is true as well.

    We're just fighting fire with fire.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    You seriously overestimate the will power of people.

    If you added an option to start a character in max level gear millions will do it. It will be the norm.
    That doesn't dictate if it's a good or bad system.
    Christ, I'm really sick of this "majority" speak.

    But on the topic of "subs are dropping because of LFR," I agree it's a little far fetched to say that.
    There are hundreds of reasons why people leave.
    Yet it was has been repeated and repeated and repeated that Cata sub drops were a cause of hard content.

    See the only reason it's even being discussed is because LFR huggers and Blizzard all think it was the root problem.
    So naturally if X is true (which is not but you all seem to think it is) then the opposite is true as well.

    We're just fighting fire with fire.
    You are only tired of the majority speak because it and facts dont support your opinion and viewpoint. If it was a fact that supported your LFR hatin then you would be rubbing it in our faces.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You are only tired of the majority speak because it and facts dont support your opinion and viewpoint. If it was a fact that supported your LFR hatin then you would be rubbing it in our faces.
    I am interested in what changes that person would make that would improve the game. Same for anyone who hates LFR.

    That said attunements while I hated them as a raid leader I enjoyed them when I did them first time around on a character. I would love an optional attunement quest chain with a reward at the end

  13. #313
    I dont know if its still there but I remember not being able to take the new guild healer into ToES because they had not cleared Shek'Zeer in LFR or normal first. Thats the only current attunement that I know of.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I dont know if its still there but I remember not being able to take the new guild healer into ToES because they had not cleared Shek'Zeer in LFR or normal first. Thats the only current attunement that I know of.
    Yeh that was in place from Mop start requiring you to have Ilevel for MSV then ilvel + MSV cleared to enter HOF and Ilevel + HOF cleared to enter TOES. It was quite a good system to get people into those raids but as far as I know you can skip those raids provided you have enough ilevel and jump into TOT. I could be wrong though!

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You are only tired of the majority speak because it and facts dont support your opinion and viewpoint. If it was a fact that supported your LFR hatin then you would be rubbing it in our faces.
    Possibly. There's also the problem of speaking for the majority. When you deal with so many people it becomes harder to call things in black and white. Also, we're dealing with 8 million players. That's not a huge sample size compared to potential players, players Blizzard wants.

    It's just a wishy washy situation when you bring in the amount of people doing something as a dictator of quality.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Yeh that was in place from Mop start requiring you to have Ilevel for MSV then ilvel + MSV cleared to enter HOF and Ilevel + HOF cleared to enter TOES. It was quite a good system to get people into those raids but as far as I know you can skip those raids provided you have enough ilevel and jump into TOT. I could be wrong though!
    This person had sufficient Ilevel but had only cleared LFR up to Garalon. As they did not beat Queen in LFR they didn't have access to ToES Normal Raid.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    This person had sufficient Ilevel but had only cleared LFR up to Garalon. As they did not beat Queen in LFR they didn't have access to ToES Normal Raid.
    I guess it only works for the 1st tier then? with TOT being separate and allowing you access if you have the ilevel only?

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    It has nothing to do with the "look" or "showing off". I am not saying go AFK in Stormwind to show off. I am saying when you run into someone that has that kind of gear you know they are an elite player and a dedicated one. Something you can respect alot in the old mindset of MMOs. It's much like seeing someone with Bane of the Fallen King in Wrath when it was current and new content, From someone who got bane of the fallen king after 400 wipes, everybody that I saw with it before me made me want to work even harder to get the prestigious achievement.

    There should be some things in the game that are unique to the super elite, that is all I am saying and right now Blizzard is going in the complete opposite direction. Just because you pay, you are not entitled to anything. You should have to put in the time, effort and dedication to complete the most challenging and inaccessible content in a game.
    True, i agree with you and this was always the case. Super elite have heroic achievements and heroic boss kills and they put effort and time. I respect that fully. I just wont do it anymore.
    Also, you said its the old mindset of wow- yes, it is just that - OLD. Times change and we need to adapt. Game adapted and I did. If someone will not adapt, he will just rage and qq, just like in irl.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Possibly. There's also the problem of speaking for the majority. When you deal with so many people it becomes harder to call things in black and white. Also, we're dealing with 8 million players. That's not a huge sample size compared to potential players, players Blizzard wants.

    It's just a wishy washy situation when you bring in the amount of people doing something as a dictator of quality.
    I don't think you can even follow that logic. I don't presume to speak for the majority, I am a raider too but unlike you I don't hate on LFR because it gives everyone the potential to see the content. I don't derive my uniqueness from keeping people from experiencing content. I see the benefits of LFR and I use those benefits to better my Raid Guilds Progression. I don't care how you or any one else progresses in this game as the only way someone effects my game is if they buy my gems, echants, gear, enhancements and the like on LFR/Normal/Heroic gear they find in the appropriate tiers and in doing so they are only making me richer.

    I don't scream about not wanting to pay school taxes because I don't have children and then benefit from an educated society by driving over bridges, paved roads and shopping in stores and businesses created by people with a public education.

  20. #320
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    As for lack of people applying to guilds no idea on that one do you have numbers to back it up or just anecdotal evidence? Lack of skilled players again what do we have to prove this? If you mean by seeing the amount of unskilled players in LFR im afraid thats not true. You will just simply see the wider player base (thus lower skilled player base in most cases) in LFR. Before you had gates to stop them raiding. Aka guilds and raid leaders/attunements etc.
    There are many threads about it on these very forums. Loads of well-established and experienced guilds and players have noted the severe lack of skilled players around. Thier apps system has all but ground to a halt. Top guilds like Paragon dropping from 25man to 10man and stating clearly that its due to the lack of skilled players available. Since then dozens of other top guilds have done the same.

    The fact that if ur honest u will admit that on your own realm u have noticed that all the well-established guilds from back in the day, most (if not all) have folded and disappeared.

    I can even cite the documentary "Race to World first" which is set in cata and based around Blood Legion who clearly state on the record that they have noticed a huge drop off in skilled available players.




    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I think LFR is not the largest cause in normal participation dropping. That was the adjustments made in Cata to normal mode raiding in 10/25 man. LFR came along as a band aid to give players a way to raid as Normal mode became harder for them and thus less accessible (until the nerfs). It has some impact I don't think anyone is denying it. But for the most part its a fairly positive impact due to the amount of people now "raiding".
    My definition of "raiding" is guilds who are raiding in Normal or Heroic. LFR is not part of the "raiding scene".

    LFR may have been originally opened to help players get into raiding but in reality its hindered raiding guilds. Very obviously so.

    Ru really trying to tell me that LFR teaches new players anything about real guild raiding whatsoever? ofc not. No raid leader, no tactics, minimal wiping, no vent. Theyre actually worlds apart. New players to Wow will learn absolutely nothing at all about what will be expected from them when they join a raiding guild.

    Raiding guilds are shouting very loudly that LFR players r either not bothering to step up to raiding or the ones who do r totally clueless, or just bad.

    Im sure there are some very nice stories of some great players moving up but that the exception not the norm...

    Ask ANY guild thats raiding how many players theyve recruited from LFR... then u will see for yourself.

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