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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    mainly from the East

    Really now you are just arguing what the meaning of 'Is' is. I'm having a hard time taking you seriously anymore. -_-
    LMAO

    good job at avoiding the point of my post and selecting semantics... u got owned... live with it.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    lol this guy just has no clue, I love rambling with no sense of realism or knowledge

    btw I am a smartass, not an asshole but you continue to generalize and try to demean...see folks this here is a guy who is calling names treating someone like garbage.....and just a reminder just because i am in an "elitest" guild as raid leader and gm I am supposed to be the asshole.

    See a problem here anyone else?

    This guy alone shows that assholes arent in elitest guilds only, they are filled in lfr too? you cant escape them. Just because you are an asshole in an lfr and not an elitest guild doesn't make you a better asshole. or a lesser asshole...
    Oh I'm sorry, you're not an asshole, but a smartass? Oh I see now. Do you know what the common denominator between an asshole and a smartass is? An ass. You're an ass. Cheers!

    Infracted. Keep it civil
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-07-10 at 08:45 PM.
    Armory
    You are not your role. You are not how much gold you have on your account.
    You are not the mount you ride. You are not the contents of your bank.
    You are not your epic purples. You are not a special and unique snowflake.
    You are the all-grinding, all-farming crap of Azeroth.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible View Post
    Oh I'm sorry, you're not an asshole, but a smartass? Oh I see now. Do you know what the common denominator between an asshole and a smartass is? An ass. You're an ass. Cheers!
    and you are a babbling waste of space. Cheers

    Don't perpetuate the flaming and arguing
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-07-10 at 08:45 PM.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by madokbro View Post
    We don't have to,
    -Study our class extensively for optimal performance,
    -Study each fight for optimal performance,
    -Try to orchestrate our optimal rotation in a stressful progress environment,
    -Wipe for hours to kill a single boss for some reason(yaay so fun),
    -Try to not fail on memorizing/reaching/assigning keybinds for each of your main characters,
    -Work extensively to perform decent while still being able to pay attention to boss mechanics, without all that "friends are depending on my performance to not wipe for another hour" stress,
    -Level x number of professions or do other forms of extremely boring stuff(such as dailies) to get more gold to spend on enchants, gems, flasks, pots or gear that gets changed constantly as you get better drops,
    -Get into arguements over numbers, such as dps or healing meters,

    to experience the content now.

    As I said before, this might be easy, monotonous for experienced gamers; but I always have a hard time to explain to them that this whole raiding ritual is no where near "fun" for a casual gamer, or an inexperienced player who has no intention/time to get to your level of experience, it is tiresome and stressful for the majority of the player base. As a gamer(I love this great hobby), I can say that World of Warcraft is way too harder than a single player fantasy game, and I, we, love playing both. But I cannot sacrifice my time and I don't have the interest to adjust to damn video game I pay to play every month, it has to adjust to me, if my views are shared by most of its target audience. Considering LFR, LFD, new talent system etc, I can safely say that they are vastly shared.

    We get in, we see the story, we get some improvements on our gear and we get out. All of it takes a very little time, and LFR keeps the thrill of "Just drop that awesome axe already" well, it does a very good job at it. Long story short, LFR is pretty awesome, Flex system also sounds awesome, and I hope they stay that way.
    Everything you say is true. There is an AND to that, though...

    The LFR/LFD portion of this game is far LESS positive of an atmosphere in general than any guild environment I've been in and I've raided everything from semi-hardcore heroic progression to semi-casual. Didn't raid in Vanilla expressly for the reasons you illustrate, but raided like a madman in BC for those very reasons. I was able and it was great.

    The problem with current LFR/LFD is that there is no support, no learning, no patience, no ability for a new player to gain actual experience (I don't mean XP) and become a better player. I was one of the first Pally tanks on my server in 2.1 when Pally tanking first became viable and I spent much of TBC mentoring other pally tanks. I had a reputation for that and I'd spend hours and hours helping guys with gear, rotation, talents, enchants, mob priority and cc requirements (this was TBC after all).

    What does LFR/LFD offer? A Walmart experience. Low raid value and low raid prices. Sure, you don't have to invest much time, but you get almost nothing out of it. Now, if you have very little time or your server just doesn't have functioning guilds that meet your needs, that may be all you can afford and that's fine. It is what it is.

    But it's not a high value proposition. While guilds run the gamut, a good guild is most definitely a high value proposition.

    I support the LFR/LFD model in the abstract because I think Blizz should support players of all needs. Unfortunately, far too often, I see 1-2 tanks performing, maybe 8-10 dps and 3-4 healers performing and that leaves up to 10 others just afking or purposefully killing themselves in the first few seconds so that they can get their "freebie gearz".

    So, please understand that the LFR/LFD is a bit less because of fewer mechanics on boss fights, but that's really not that big a deal. Some make it into some huge thing, but it's not. LFR/LFD is just easier and we all know that. Fine. Where the real and gross shortchanging occurs is between players. Players shortchange other players by not showing up to play. I always show up knowing fights with food. Sometimes I even flask if I'm undergeared. I come to support the raid even if it's LFR because I'm old school and I don't know how to be a slacker. But when folks are criticizing LFR especially, the most poignant, caustic and pertinent criticisms revolve around the community.

    If LFR/LFD players showed up to play, showed up to support new players, showed up ready to help with strats, showed up ready to learn if they are new players... then so much of this "LFR is easymode" stuff wouldn't matter worth a damn.

    TL;dr The player community is failing LFR/LFD far more than Blizz is or has. We get out of it what we put into it and unfortunately far too many folks put next to nothing in and still get their rewards relying on those that do want to enjoy playing.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    The problem is, in my opinion, is that raids (Normal raids and above, I mean) are made for raiders. People who are already raiding, have been raiding, or have that mindset. It's exclusionary by very design, and that's the real problem, more than anything. Not so much LFR (and it has it's part, but it's not as big as people claim it to be, in comparison to this.)

    There's no real stepping off point to go from one to the other. The system is not a fit for the current gaming landscape, and it's inherently doomed to failure. It's a niche activity, done by a niche amount of people, that wants more people to be doing it, but basically is abhorrent of any real logical solution, and unwilling to adapt to the changing landscape, COUPLED with Blizzard making absolutely bizarre design decisions. At least that's what I think. You take LFR away, it's not going to magically increase things. You go a time and imagine if there never was a LFR, it's not magically going to make things better either.

    I don't even know what some people, like Seefer, think the solution is. It's not taking things away, it's trying to come up with ways to better train the player base.
    Woot!

    Someone who can discuss my points politely and fairly...

    And i actually agree with most of what u have said. The issue is the gap between LFR and normals, exactly how that gap shold be changed is open to discussion. But that gap needs redress and the only way to fix it is to resdesign LFR from ground up to fit into the bigger picture more effectively.

  6. #426
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Quit before 4.3 was released... got a 10 day trial when the patch hit and tested it. I didn't even know that it was alot easier, I just thought the game became stupidly easy. I don't hate LFR because it's quick, I hate it because it's a lower difficulty. Why make the content as easy as possible? It's like getting a new video game and just setting it on the easiest setting so that you can grow through it as quick as possible. Since when has rushing through something been the most fun way to enjoy it? All you end up doing is redoing that same content w/ no challenge. The reason I loved heroic was because it offered a challenge that wasn't easy to beat. Maybe people just want the easy route and have never wanted to work for something, but I come from a competitive athletic background and winning was always my goal. I didn't get any joy out of beating bad teams 13-0, but beating a great team in penalty kicks or a late game goal... those were the game I lived for... so when it came to WoW, why bother wasting my time on easy content when I can challenge myself and feel more accomplished? I'm supposed to be a hero in the game, so do heroes take the easy route or do they keep their head up and tackle the difficult content head on? You decide.
    I personally think it's most people just want to play an MMORPG and not be forced to deal with the inherit drama and annoyance of forced grouping. It must be. It can't all be chalked up to difficulty. Why have so few people historically done the aspects that required grouping until it's introduced into an automated system?

    Difficulty has it's part, but there's certainly a truth to what I'm saying too, I think. I have zero problem with difficulty myself, it's the socialization that's forced on you to do anything with any modicum of difficulty that's the problem to me :x

    Most other genres don't have to endure this, and most genres aren't suffering. What genre IS falling flat on it's face in sales in the last few years? Ding ding ding!

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I dont think they do it to be cool, I think they truly believe what they say. It doesn't mean they are right though and I am going to defend LFR because I personally enjoy it and I use it to advance my Raid Guilds Progression. I can argue my side and they are welcome to argue their side. If you assume they are doing it to be cool and fit in then you are underestimating them.
    Ye well as one whos doing only LFR these days, i know what you mean, and thats the part i hat.... dislike most, people seem to think they know whats best for me, without knowing why im doing lfr only.
    And the reason i said they are doing so, are because most of the time when people create yet another hate lfr topic, they often type their own opinion as facts, like this one topic i saw some time ago, it was called LFR killed WoW..i think. which are just to trying and start a flame war.
    You can also see the person i quoted, and that you have been argue with, he quit last year, around the time when lfr just got release or just before i have no idea, but yet hes talking about current content like hes doing it.

  8. #428
    Endemonadia, are you seriously telling me you look to these forums to put your finger on the pulse of the game? That's like looking into a pond down a length of toilet paper tubing and seeing minows and then saying, "Oh My God! These Great white sharks are a huge problem for this ocean of water! I can see them right here! They are eating smaller fish and devouring all life!"

    You have no ideal whats going on in the game because you do not participate, please for the love of all that exists don't base your knee jerk reactionary decision making skills on this tiny subset of wow gamers prone to flourishes of keystrokes and dramatic interpretation.

    Its like going to a political rally of 10,000 republicans holding up anti-democrat signs and leaping to the assumption that all americans are unhappy republicans and these democrats just need to go! There just has to be more behind your decision making than people complaining about something on Forums. These forums will lead you astray if you think its actually a good source for the pulse of the game.

  9. #429
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Absolutely correct... but 1.3million ex-Wow players say hi.

    The FACT that such an unprecidented amount of players leaving the game shouts loud and clear there are issues right now at this moment in Wow.

    Its obvious that the psychology of the players who remain will think that the game is fine, i can live with that. But i must stand up against totally misinformed and clueless statements such as ur making.
    There's way more than 1.3 Million ex WoW players :x

    They've said before that there's far more ex WoW players than there are current players (and that was during either WOTLK or Cataclysm, that they said that.).


    Consider that for a moment. It means something. It means there's probably around 12 million or more unsatisfied WoW players.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Mackeyser View Post
    Everything you say is true. There is an AND to that, though...

    The LFR/LFD portion of this game is far LESS positive of an atmosphere in general than any guild environment I've been in and I've raided everything from semi-hardcore heroic progression to semi-casual. Didn't raid in Vanilla expressly for the reasons you illustrate, but raided like a madman in BC for those very reasons. I was able and it was great.

    The problem with current LFR/LFD is that there is no support, no learning, no patience, no ability for a new player to gain actual experience (I don't mean XP) and become a better player. I was one of the first Pally tanks on my server in 2.1 when Pally tanking first became viable and I spent much of TBC mentoring other pally tanks. I had a reputation for that and I'd spend hours and hours helping guys with gear, rotation, talents, enchants, mob priority and cc requirements (this was TBC after all).

    What does LFR/LFD offer? A Walmart experience. Low raid value and low raid prices. Sure, you don't have to invest much time, but you get almost nothing out of it. Now, if you have very little time or your server just doesn't have functioning guilds that meet your needs, that may be all you can afford and that's fine. It is what it is.

    But it's not a high value proposition. While guilds run the gamut, a good guild is most definitely a high value proposition.

    I support the LFR/LFD model in the abstract because I think Blizz should support players of all needs. Unfortunately, far too often, I see 1-2 tanks performing, maybe 8-10 dps and 3-4 healers performing and that leaves up to 10 others just afking or purposefully killing themselves in the first few seconds so that they can get their "freebie gearz".

    So, please understand that the LFR/LFD is a bit less because of fewer mechanics on boss fights, but that's really not that big a deal. Some make it into some huge thing, but it's not. LFR/LFD is just easier and we all know that. Fine. Where the real and gross shortchanging occurs is between players. Players shortchange other players by not showing up to play. I always show up knowing fights with food. Sometimes I even flask if I'm undergeared. I come to support the raid even if it's LFR because I'm old school and I don't know how to be a slacker. But when folks are criticizing LFR especially, the most poignant, caustic and pertinent criticisms revolve around the community.

    If LFR/LFD players showed up to play, showed up to support new players, showed up ready to help with strats, showed up ready to learn if they are new players... then so much of this "LFR is easymode" stuff wouldn't matter worth a damn.

    TL;dr The player community is failing LFR/LFD far more than Blizz is or has. We get out of it what we put into it and unfortunately far too many folks put next to nothing in and still get their rewards relying on those that do want to enjoy playing.
    I agree with you that you get what you put into LFR. I go in to learn boss mechanics, get subpar gear to imrpove my raid performance, up my valor and to increase my muscle memory. Unfortunately its impossible to create a system where 25 strangers can be forced to get better, even in 5 man content you can jack your numbers up and then just autoattack and no one would know the difference. Theres no such thing as idiot proof.

  11. #431
    im not sure how one can criticize a game they do not play in any form....I have to agree with deadman on this one

  12. #432
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Me saying you don't know everything is rather simple, you try and talk for the majority but don't know a damn thing while at the same time spout off that we have no right to talk for others because we don't have facts, you are nothing but a hypocrite.

    Also if me finding people in LFR doing 15k dps and standing in bad stuff as bad players makes me a baddie than so be it but I would rather be what you call a baddie who is doing heroic raids than a hypocrite loud mouth like you.
    You're a fair bit of a loud mouth yourself, just so you know :x Look at your use of the term "bads" earlier. Look at your icon. Look at just how... negative you act toward lots of people who mostly aren't even acting negatively toward you. This is generally why people get the sort of attitudes that they do about certain players. You're apprehensive, insulting, and think what's good for you is good for everyone, and you don't even REALLY think that, you just flat out don't care about other people.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    and you are a babbling waste of space. Cheers
    Yeah, stay mad gramps.
    Armory
    You are not your role. You are not how much gold you have on your account.
    You are not the mount you ride. You are not the contents of your bank.
    You are not your epic purples. You are not a special and unique snowflake.
    You are the all-grinding, all-farming crap of Azeroth.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    LMAO

    good job at avoiding the point of my post and selecting semantics... u got owned... live with it.
    What ever helps you sleep at night, personally I am ashamed I tried to carry on an intellectual conversation about the game with some one who hasn't played the game in a year. Lesson learned.

  15. #435
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible View Post
    The only thing I've been able to gleen from this thread is that there are actually people delusional enough to think that giving more options caused subs to drop. That's pretty funny, but what's even funnier is that the LFR haters hate LFR because it took away normal mode raiders from their raid groups. So just stop your seething rage for a second and think about it. People stopped raiding with you and other raiders and prefered running LFR with random strangers... I wonder if it has anything to do with your piss poor attitude, abyssmal social skills and complete inability to think that people play videos games for enjoyment, not to dedicate strict portions of their free time to raiding with nerdraging psychos who flip a shit whenever someone does something wrong.

    If you want to be upset with anything, don't be mad at LFR or others, there's only yourself to blame.
    Yeah, seriously. If people pick something else, something "bad" instead of something you think is "good", for various reasons, then something is seriously wrong with what's going on in that sort of mode that is turning people off from it, and it's most definitely something to consider. (and it does seem that if Flex isn't a sham, it'll be a big shift in the right direction)

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Difficulty has it's part, but there's certainly a truth to what I'm saying too, I think. I have zero problem with difficulty myself, it's the socialization that's forced on you to do anything with any modicum of difficulty that's the problem to me :x
    As far as gear progression is concerned there is nothing of difficulty given as an option that doesnt require preformed groups. We used to have heroics that offered that but no longer due to Blizzards horrid idea that all players should be shoved into challenging content. The casuals who are leaving now due to lack of engaging content didnt leave in Cata when there was challenging content at a casual level and we are seeing Flex mode being introduced for casuals who want a PuG friendly while challenging option. Sadly we still are not getting one that doesnt revolve around raiding.

    I dont mind a bit of socialization personally and enjoy PuGing in general as it keeps things mixed up and increases the available pool of players one can engage with while still not being bound by a schedule.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-07-10 at 08:31 PM.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    im not sure how one can criticize a game they do not play in any form....I have to agree with deadman on this one
    One certainly should not come to a wow forum to gather information on the pulse of the game, its like living in a microcosm of bitchy-ness.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible View Post
    Yeah, stay mad gramps.
    LOL not mad at all, I enjoy watching someone make a complete fool out of themselves and then contradicting their very argument. It's entertainment in its finest! I've been smiling this whole time imagining that you are throwing your toys against the wall getting yelled at by your mother lol.

    Pretty sure I have seen a video of it on youtube somewhere.

  19. #439
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dryankem View Post
    It's not really hate for raiding guilds, it's the no desire to be in one, that's a huge difference. I can stay in my friends guild, play on my time and I don't ever need to go into vent, but I still get to kill internet dragons and get cool loot. If they removed LFR I would just go back to running 5 mans.

    I may not get the best loot (gear, achievements or mounts, etc...) but I get what I want out of wow and that's to enjoy myself for a couple hours after work.
    and the thing to remember is that, now, in the past, and in WoW's entire history, most people didn't want to be or weren't in raiding guilds. Only a small minority of people were. Even at raiding's peak :x


    I'm pretty much with you right there, 100% same ideals, dryankem.


    I just want to play the damned game :x

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    LOL not mad at all, I enjoy watching someone make a complete fool out of themselves and then contradicting their very argument. It's entertainment in its finest! I've been smiling this whole time imagining that you are throwing your toys against the wall getting yelled at by your mother lol.

    Pretty sure I have seen a video of it on youtube somewhere.
    Ooookay there crazy dude.
    Armory
    You are not your role. You are not how much gold you have on your account.
    You are not the mount you ride. You are not the contents of your bank.
    You are not your epic purples. You are not a special and unique snowflake.
    You are the all-grinding, all-farming crap of Azeroth.

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