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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Asacado View Post
    Because blizz has no idea what they are doing to not make us stupidly op. To further add insult to injury, we've gone through 3 masterys (yes 5.4 counts) and they do not give us any thought behind it. Were back to proc chances which do not make us wanting to stack insane amounts in hopes we get 1 more stack. Flat damage increases similar to ret that grant percentage based increases to even 1-2 abilites would make us go ape-shit.
    Personally I'm not a fan of flat percentage damage increases, they're not exciting or interesting at all, they function the same as crit in that it's a percentage damage increase over the course of a fight and nothing more. At least TEB focused masteries are interesting in that more mastery changes the way you play, although more TEB is probably the least interesting mastery we could get. We have a wide variety of things surrounding TEB that could be interesting: a buff after TEB fades based on mastery and TEB usage (higher chi or energy gen?), increasing the duration of TEB, giving some amount of crit and/or haste during TEB that scales with mastery, there's an entire world out there. We don't need a Ret or Assa type mastery that is little more than an attack power equivalent.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Eznor View Post
    I find it crazy that since GC tweeted 1 sentence about our healing wich was month ago. We had absolutely NO FEEDBACK at all about our sitation. When i log onto MMO champ and see some class had like 5 or 6 blue post over the week it feels kinda weird.

    There were a shitloads of post written since PTR started and we dont even have a clue if they are working on something for our raid utility ...
    And the 1 sentence that GC did type had very little to do with reality.

    According to participation numbers, the spec is dead, and it appears blizz doesn't really care.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Moncoko View Post
    And the 1 sentence that GC did type had very little to do with reality.

    According to participation numbers, the spec is dead, and it appears blizz doesn't really care.
    Getting sat for low damage and no utility on a great tier blows.
    "The ocean is a scary place. It's full of water and stuff."

  4. #224
    I'm getting really tired of our mastery changing so much. This tier addressed our daft ramp up time by increasing our stack generation speed, boosted further by our set bonus. On fights where we use heroism on the pull, i find myself struggling to keep up with the likes of the rogue in our group who is doing stupid burst at the start of every fight. TEB is great in theory, but it's hopeless on fights without prolonged chi expendature. A better solution might be to have a passive regeneration of TEB and for every 6 or 8 chi we gain an additional stack? this means we arent short at the start of a fight and chi brewing will still be a class mechanic. We also wont get gimped on fights with wait peroids.

  5. #225
    Couple GC Twitter quotes from today:

    "The intent isn't to nerf WW overall -- we're not finished yet. It will end up with Rune just being good instead of crazy OP."
    "Yes. I believe the very next build has some buffs. We are still adjusting mechanics more than numbers at this stage."
    Kind of interesting I'm not sure how it's possible to make Rune "good".

  6. #226
    Glad to see GC talk about this- someone linked him this MMOC thread which is a terrible idea, half the people in this thread are whining nonstop

  7. #227
    Why not a mastery like the previous, but dynamically scales and isn't too overbearing? Ex.
    "You deal X% more damage during tigerseye brew, multiplied by the amount of tigerseye brew stacks consumed."

    Basically, the same as live, where mastery increases damage during tigerseye brew, but with this, mastery will update dynamically (breaking rune to an extent) and keeping mastery procs relevant. This would also prevent people from spamming 1-2 stacks by multiplying the damage modifier by how many stacks you drink. If 1 stack was 5% damage, 10 stacks would be 50% damage.

  8. #228
    GC wasnt kidding.

    Patch notes got updated today:

    TEB is 6% per stack up for 5%
    3Chi/TEB

    I'll drop these in the spreadsheet, but I'm guessing these changes will be a buff from 5.3

    Edit:

    New Spreadsheet:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...clpnMXc#gid=25

    5.4 DPS
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 248,213
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 234,356
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 238,429

    Mastery->DPS scales better than before, but not as well as crit. Seems weird to me but you get more TEB/min from haste (up to haste cap) than mastery. Seems like if you wanted to maximize TEB/min, you would stack mastery, but it may be just because my gear level in the spreadsheet is at the far end of the spectrum. I might need a few people with 480, 500, and 520 gear levels to volunteer to be my SimC guinnea pigs.

  9. #229
    High Overlord Gulvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzyy View Post
    Glad to see GC talk about this- someone linked him this MMOC thread which is a terrible idea, half the people in this thread are whining nonstop
    You call it whining, I call it valid concerns. They have lost their faith in the dev team with alot of the changes over the current expansion. But there is also alot more thoughtful, and quality discussion about the spec as well as some good TC. I also wanted to let him know about rotund's spreadsheet.

    As per the current PTR, it does look like a nice boost now. RoR will boost the stacks we generate or get us to a 100% crit level (or close to it). It would be similar to tanking monks.
    Host of Monkcraft Podcast and Co-Host of Groupquest

  10. #230
    Windwalkers just had an extended beta :P.
    Monk main Casual

    people putting quotes in signatures are often retarded according to science.

  11. #231
    My problem with the current 5.4 WW is bad scaling. If we go back to Crit being our best stat (Haste is soft-capped at ~10k rating), that's very bad news because we don't have an additional mechanic that interacts with Crit.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    My problem with the current 5.4 WW is bad scaling. If we go back to Crit being our best stat (Haste is soft-capped at ~10k rating), that's very bad news because we don't have an additional mechanic that interacts with Crit.
    We don't need a mechanic that interacts with crit. Combo breaker works just fine as a RNG keep your rotation interesting mechanic. I'm perfectly fine with what we have.

    If you add such a crit mechanic, you make it so every other stat besides crit sucks. Warriors already do this, we don't need another class that does it as well.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    I might need a few people with 480, 500, and 520 gear levels to volunteer to be my SimC guinnea pigs.
    I don't know if mine would be useful, but here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Manu/advanced

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    We don't need a mechanic that interacts with crit. Combo breaker works just fine as a RNG keep your rotation interesting mechanic. I'm perfectly fine with what we have.

    If you add such a crit mechanic, you make it so every other stat besides crit sucks. Warriors already do this, we don't need another class that does it as well.
    I meant that no spec wants crit to be its best secondary stat if it has no additional mechanics that scale with crit (Hot Streak for Fire, Enrage for Fury) because 600 rating for 1% damage increase is terrible. Rogues don't stack crit, Demo / Affliction locks don't stack crit, Enhancement shamans don't stack crit. That's all due to crit being the worst bang for the buck secondary stat if the spec doesn't have any extra bonuses from crit. We may be OK damage wise due to Stance / RSK buffs at 550 ilvl, but how are we going to compete against Rogues, Mages, Warlocks in 574 ilvl BiS if we lose RoR scaling in exchange for stacking lackluster crit because all our other stats have soft-caps or are worse than crit?

    Keep in mind damage is the only thing WW brings to a 25 man raid, just like Mages. Answer this: assuming two equally skilled and equally geared players, why would you bring a WW over a Rogue?

  15. #235
    Overall, I think there is too much whining and not enough constructive feedback.

    "lost their faith in the dev team"
    "I'm getting really tired of our mastery changing so much"
    "blizz has no idea what they are doing"

    Are you trying to make the case that Rune would of been fine next tier?
    That the proper fix was to just change the Rune to avoid WW DPS going through the roof?
    What about the other specs that benefit from this trinket?
    And what about WW damage in PvP, who is stuck with considerably lower secondaries?

    No developer wants to read your feedback if it's just a bunch of ungracious moaning. Time and time again, the first few rounds of mechanic changes are never going to be balanced numerically.

    The need for a raid cooldown is orthogonal to your TEB changes. Try to keep your feedback more focused and constructive rather than trying to fix every problem all at once.

  16. #236
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    I might need a few people with 480, 500, and 520 gear levels to volunteer to be my SimC guinnea pigs.
    I'm trying really hard to determine if WW is going to be worth sticking with going into 5.4 progression so anything I can help you collect data on I'll be more than happy to my ilevel is higher than what your looking for but I have plenty gear to test w/e levels you need.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    I'm trying really hard to determine if WW is going to be worth sticking with going into 5.4 progression so anything I can help you collect data on I'll be more than happy to my ilevel is higher than what your looking for but I have plenty gear to test w/e levels you need.
    They're barely tuning the numbers right now. A tad early to jump ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    Mastery->DPS scales better than before, but not as well as crit. Seems weird to me but you get more TEB/min from haste (up to haste cap) than mastery.
    It does - considering that it's still 5K haste for 1 e/s.

    It's still better than our first mastery, in that it still scales. I seem to have the unpopular opinion of actually liking this mastery. It's not that the ToT mastery is boring - it's just that it's asking for a nerf (per se, look how many we have had this tier).

    I wouldn't be surprised if we swapped back to crit stacking. It'll feel strange going back to T14 playstyle, that's for sure. But, interesting they chose to write in our T15 4set... I didn't really like that 4set bonus, but I think it has the possibility of helping our rampup.

    It's unfortunate that they haven't buffed Chi Brew for us. When I logged into test it out, prior to this change, it gave an incredible amount of damage - it felt like receiving a Christmas present in July, a la the TeB CD that we've been screaming for.

  18. #238
    I have some gear scaling concerns even with these latest changes. Though I'm willing to take a hit in possible scaling for raid utility.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by raffy View Post
    Overall, I think there is too much whining and not enough constructive feedback.

    "lost their faith in the dev team"
    "I'm getting really tired of our mastery changing so much"
    "blizz has no idea what they are doing"

    Are you trying to make the case that Rune would of been fine next tier?
    That the proper fix was to just change the Rune to avoid WW DPS going through the roof?
    What about the other specs that benefit from this trinket?
    And what about WW damage in PvP, who is stuck with considerably lower secondaries?

    No developer wants to read your feedback if it's just a bunch of ungracious moaning. Time and time again, the first few rounds of mechanic changes are never going to be balanced numerically.

    The need for a raid cooldown is orthogonal to your TEB changes. Try to keep your feedback more focused and constructive rather than trying to fix every problem all at once.
    Plenty of constructive feedback has been given elsewhere, and it has all been ignored. Remember, this is the same dev team that released 5.2 not realizing Chi Wave had been bugged since beta (and had been reported as such numerous times). This is the same dev team that says "WWers heal" (laughable amounts) so WWers don't need a raid CD. This is the same dev team that said they hoped to 'bring WWer participation up to par" in 5.2. I wonder why they failed so miserably?

    The "whining" in this thread comes from the frustration of playing a spec that has been dying since launch, and seeing nothing being done to address any of the participation issues.

    MONKS EVERYWHERE: Why bring a WWer over any other dps?
    BLUE: <crickets>
    Last edited by Moncoko; 2013-07-13 at 06:08 AM.

  20. #240
    Stood in the Fire Rickarus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasmus View Post
    It's a huge nerf, it takes 60 Chi ignoring the new Mastery to grant 75% damage increase. Down from 30 Chi for around 200%.
    apples and oranges, man.

    You can't compare it "ignoring the new mastery" because the new mastery will always be there, with a base value, plus at least a minimum amount from gear and the mastery buff.

    And to compare the damage increase in terms of how much chi is required to get it is ridiculous, you can't assume you will have perfect RoRO procs where they proc perfectly every time you get to 10 stacks, because that is statistically implausible. I would say, on average, that it is far more likely that one would see maybe 1/3 of their TeB uses aided by RoRO, with the other 2/3 being a (likely) lower number than 75%. And that is assuming that it procs only when you would be able to have the full 10 stacks, though it's fairly common to see multiple procs in quick succession, forcing sub-10 stack uses.

    Also, the lower damage being done during the RoRO procs must be taken into account when comparing 5.3 w/ RoRO vs 5.4 w/o RoRO. Say, in an average boss fight, assuming you unequip and reequip before the fight to keep it from proccing at the beginning of a fight, you get 3-6 RoRO procs, that would be 30-60 seconds with (almost) no crit or haste, which, in a 5-8 minute fight, can make a difference.

    Finally, you must remember that this is till ptr, and they may not have finished with numbers, we could still see a buff to our stance damage increase, or to a/some skills, or the RSK debuff, etc. Or, they may even change the numbers of TeB.

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