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  1. #41
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayma View Post
    Don't think it would take too much effort to reach low 70's damage modifier without RoR and close to 200 with RoR procs next tier. Assuming 1/2 your Brews are from RoR procs that would average to ~135.

    Even if you were to get unlucky and only 1/4 of your Brews were trinket procs that still averages to over 100..... How was this number of 75 chosen?
    Which is why I think that 5% is too low. Given that most raiders have 4% or more Mastery, or 5% on TeB, I think that is where they got the 5%. But your talking about 7200 Mastery W/O the mastery buff. I'm sitting at 9288 Mastery Rating. WITH the mastery buff, that equates to 6.696% TeB. Justmonk in Method is looking at just under 7% with the mastery buff. I'm just saying it's too early right now and it would not surprise me one bit if they buffed that TeB %.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayma View Post
    Don't think it would take too much effort to reach low 70's damage modifier without RoR and close to 200 with RoR procs next tier. Assuming 1/2 your Brews are from RoR procs that would average to ~135.

    Even if you were to get unlucky and only 1/4 of your Brews were trinket procs that still averages to over 100..... How was this number of 75 chosen?
    I doubt the new talent was balanced solely or even primarily around how much mastery RoR was giving WWs.

    Here's another consideration for you. With the new mastery, you can reforge to Crit with RoR so that it gives you an insane crit buff on top of the 75% damage from Brew vs right now when you lose all your crit. So before, say you were doing 175% with RoR, but you also lose all your crit and haste in the process.

    Now you'll be doing 75% but perhaps you'll be awfully close to crit capped during the proc, so most of your hits will do 150% damage instead of 75%. I wouldn't imagine you'd reforge to haste.

    Still a nerf, but if you're going to quantify it, you'd have to factor in how much damage you gain from crit, not just during procs but also throughout the fight.

    You also have to factor in that now you'll get to use 2 5.4 trinkets instead of being forced to stick with RoR indefinitely (+agi and procs vs RoR).
    Last edited by Abysal; 2013-07-09 at 04:08 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    I doubt the new talent was balanced solely or even primarily around how much mastery RoR was giving WWs.

    Here's another consideration for you. With the new mastery, you can reforge to Crit with RoR so that it gives you an insane crit buff on top of the 75% damage from Brew vs right now when you lose all your crit. So before, say you were doing 175% with RoR, but you also lose all your crit and haste in the process.

    Now you'll be doing 75% but perhaps you'll be awfully close to crit capped during the proc, so most of your hits will do 150% damage instead of 75%. I wouldn't imagine you'd reforge to haste.

    Still a nerf, but if you're going to quantify it, you'd have to factor in how much damage you gain from crit, not just during procs but also throughout the fight.

    You also have to factor in that now you'll get to use 2 5.4 trinkets instead of being forced to stick with RoR indefinitely.
    You forgot to factor in how WWers still have no raid CD.

  4. #44
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    I do not understand why blizzard is just so fixated on giving ww and mw such shity masteries.
    Make Tigers Brew into a straight damage cooldown then make our mastery provide a % of nature damage beside on what damage we put out.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    I doubt the new talent was balanced solely or even primarily around how much mastery RoR was giving WWs.

    Here's another consideration for you. With the new mastery, you can reforge to Crit with RoR so that it gives you an insane crit buff on top of the 75% damage from Brew vs right now when you lose all your crit. So before, say you were doing 175% with RoR, but you also lose all your crit and haste in the process.

    Now you'll be doing 75% but perhaps you'll be awfully close to crit capped during the proc, so most of your hits will do 150% damage instead of 75%. I wouldn't imagine you'd reforge to haste.

    Still a nerf, but if you're going to quantify it, you'd have to factor in how much damage you gain from crit, not just during procs but also throughout the fight.

    You also have to factor in that now you'll get to use 2 5.4 trinkets instead of being forced to stick with RoR indefinitely.
    Three problems with RoR crit proc:

    1. Getting over 103% crit during the proc. This already happens at 543 ilvl for me when I go crit proc for BrM.
    2. RoR proc is 10 sec duration, TeB is 15 seconds, so Crit proc has to be at least 50% better, which it isn't (~170% TeB for 15 sec >> 100% crit * 75% TeB for 10 sec + 75% TeB for 5 sec)
    3. 75% of the time you won't be able to fit 2 RSK in 10 sec RoR (RSK must have less than 2 sec on CD when RoR crit procs), whereas you're guaranteed 2 RSK during TeB.

    RoR crit proc is way inferior to the current RoR mastery proc + TeB.

    IMO keep TeB and RoR the same as live, and give WW the niche of highest melee DPS but having no raid CDs because right now there is absolutely no reason to bring a WW over a rogue.

    Best melee dps + no raid CDs (WW) is at least balanced compared to decent melee dps with raid CDs (Rogue, Enh, Ret, Feral, Warrior all have raid CDs).
    Last edited by NeverStop; 2013-07-09 at 04:22 AM.

  6. #46
    Scarab Lord ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    You can tell who didn't play in Wrath when DKs were undergoing a similar rollercoaster ride because they are actually surprised.

    Edit: Just don't worry. We're not gonna get major butchered, promise. We'll get buffs to compensate, we'll probably stay middle of the pack. Worst case, lower middle.
    Last edited by ViridianWRA; 2013-07-09 at 04:35 AM.

  7. #47
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViridianCC View Post
    You can tell who didn't play in Wrath when DKs were undergoing a similar rollercoaster ride because they are actually surprised.
    I know what you mean, hence my wait-and-see approach. Granted I didn't play a DK in wrath (only started my first one in MoP) but I knew the changes going on, and there were A LOT back then.

  8. #48
    True, but unlike DKs monks didn't really hit the massive OP stage, they hit midrange and bounced around the midrange for a while. I can see the mastery sticking if there were a few tweaks added to it, i.e. mastery also causes your RSK/BoK/TP to cause % mastery damage (possible non-phys) on top of its normal damage + boost during tbrew. (separate damages for 'flavor')
    I'm not seeing where the 'charge up your buff' is meeting where 'use your damage cd' is in this coming iteration of the ptr.
    Last edited by Core461; 2013-07-09 at 04:31 AM. Reason: minor alteration

  9. #49
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core461 View Post
    I can see the mastery sticking if there were a few tweaks added to it, i.e. mastery also causes your RSK/BoK/TP to cause % mastery damage (possible non-phys) on top of its normal damage + boost during tbrew. (separate damages for 'flavor')
    I doubt it. If anything I think it's going to be a numbers adjustment to to either

    a) Chi to TeB (ie reverting back to the 3 Chi to 1 TeB)
    b) Amount of TeB % (say 5% to 7%)
    c) The chance from the mastery (adjusting the base Mastery %).

  10. #50
    Hey guys, I've put up a post on the PTR discussion board and would love to see any input/suggestions there as it would have a better chance of visibility on their forums.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9436964232#1

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by bounstar View Post
    Hey guys, I've put up a post on the PTR discussion board and would love to see any input/suggestions there as it would have a better chance of visibility on their forums.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9436964232#1
    put in my two cents, but pretty sure it is a lost cause at this point. Devs are so out of touch with the reality of the class and can always blame low participation numbers as "new class" syndrome despite evidence to the contrary.

    The mastery change may end up being neutral, but its pretty flabbergasting that out of all the things WWers have asked for, the devs have spent their time on this (although apparently not much based on how off the numbers are).

  12. #52
    I think I have stockholm syndrome with rune. How unfortunate.
    Quotey, Brewmaster Monk

  13. #53
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViridianCC View Post
    You can tell who didn't play in Wrath when DKs were undergoing a similar rollercoaster ride because they are actually surprised.

    Edit: Just don't worry. We're not gonna get major butchered, promise. We'll get buffs to compensate, we'll probably stay middle of the pack. Worst case, lower middle.
    It was not that bad, it seemed like they had a vision then, here they might as well just do this:
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    I doubt the new talent was balanced solely or even primarily around how much mastery RoR was giving WWs.

    Here's another consideration for you. With the new mastery, you can reforge to Crit with RoR so that it gives you an insane crit buff on top of the 75% damage from Brew vs right now when you lose all your crit. So before, say you were doing 175% with RoR, but you also lose all your crit and haste in the process.

    Now you'll be doing 75% but perhaps you'll be awfully close to crit capped during the proc, so most of your hits will do 150% damage instead of 75%. I wouldn't imagine you'd reforge to haste.

    Still a nerf, but if you're going to quantify it, you'd have to factor in how much damage you gain from crit, not just during procs but also throughout the fight.

    You also have to factor in that now you'll get to use 2 5.4 trinkets instead of being forced to stick with RoR indefinitely (+agi and procs vs RoR).

    1) Nobody will be using Rune
    2) you may be getting 100% crit for 10 of the 15 seconds (more like 9 because of reaction time), but you also lose all your haste
    3) Part of the beauty of Rune is being able to snapshot the mastery so you can use TEB without losing the haste & crit.

    100% crit for 10 seconds with no haste +75% dmg
    vs.
    50% crit for 15 seconds full haste +180% dmg

    Not even close

  15. #55
    Wow that's brutal, Rune actually made WW pretty fun and I had only just gotten to 180% on proc , I wonder if they'll buff us somewhere else because with that new change we're gonna be bottom of the barrel again.

  16. #56
    what I'm worried about is the insane dps burst of all other classes at pull (hello mages and SP pulling over 500k dps) with some being able to maintain a very high dps throughout the fight... Us monks our only way to compensate the lack of burst on demand was this fucking ROo trinket coupled to mastery. It was poor game design, I know, but at least we had a chance to bring some insane dps with a little bit of luck.

    But with this change, I fear, as the fights duration tends to diminish in High end content, that our DPS will never have the chance to go up against those of other melee classes. Hence the fact that we'll be bench and replaced by more rogues ... yay !

    No burst, no execute, no raid utility, no more shiny trinket... how the hell are we supposed to compete ?

  17. #57
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    Buffing Sub rogues and nerfing WW monks.

    Brilliant move Blizzard...

  18. #58
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asacado View Post
    Do you hear that? It's the sound of thousands of monks storming Blizz HQ to hang Ghostcrawler.
    Hahaha...but seriously...don't we get that for every class, every specc, every patch. Not all at the same time, but the outcry of "OMF don't nerf me bro" has been heard just tooooooooooo often.

    It is PTR, right?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I do not understand why blizzard is just so fixated on giving ww and mw such shity masteries.
    Make Tigers Brew into a straight damage cooldown then make our mastery provide a % of nature damage beside on what damage we put out.
    No thank you, I rather like having our big dps cooldown being a unique mechanic rather than the typical timed cooldown. WW may need some work in some areas but I'd rather not see TEB made into a regular dps cooldown.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by ViridianCC View Post
    You can tell who didn't play in Wrath when DKs were undergoing a similar rollercoaster ride because they are actually surprised.
    There's two major differences in this situation:

    1) During WotLK, there was lots of discussion between devs and DK community. Devs shared their views of how the class was doing and what they were planning, and these views were actually rational and made sense. During MoP, there's absolutely zero discussion about monks. They're not telling us what they're doing, unless it's something completely absurd like "we think healing is WWs raid utility", and when asked what the fuck are they smoking, there's no answer.

    2)

    DK usefulness during WotLK: OP beyond recognizion -> OP -> Great -> Still mandatory -> OP -> Good etc.
    Monk usefulness during MoP: Shit -> Even shittier -> Oh look we got cleave but it's shit as is the rest of the spec -> Shit -> Nerfed further

    To be honest, I'm not even surprised anymore. Monks are the new Shaman, hated by everyone, especially Blizzard.

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