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  1. #161
    I'm still not seeing how we're gonna be competitive against all other classes with insane burst at pull and execute comes 25-30%...

    All I see is some linear dps throughout the fight, and nothing helping us compensate lack of burst or raid utility. Where some classes can pull over 650k+ dps we usually pull around 250k with BL and if we are lucky on crits and RoO doesn't pop at pull. At least with RoO we had a little chance to go up from last to top 5 (with enough good procs over the fight) but here I'm really wondering... I'm not even sure 75% damage increase with 100% uptime could help as it is (wich is impossible anyway as we'll never be able to start fights with TeB stacks)

    I'm seriously worried about my spot in raid progress for 5.4 =X

  2. #162
    Warchief Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconslicer View Post
    Sure, so at 22.2k mastery on gear, you'll have the same uptime as in live, with 25% less damage. Uptime today is, what, 50%? 40%? So it's a 10-12% nerf to overall damage.

    At mastery below 22.2k, you'll have less uptime, where on live the buff would be smaller. You can do the math if you like, but it'll probably still land in the "10-15% nerf" range.

    So "how serious this nerf is" is roughly a 10% dps loss. That's not insignificant, but it's also easily fixable by eg. a 10% buff to the RSK debuff.
    I think you are not understanding what is going on, the 100% chance I mentioned, the 22,200 Mastery Rating before the Mastery buff, is the CHANCE that a second TeB stack is applied when you use up 4 Chi (think the T15 4-piece how it has a 10% chance to generate a second TeB). the 100% uptime is if you use your TeB stack right when the previous one expires; or in this case a 20% damage boost constantly. I would say, don't try to go for 100% uptime on the buff but instead either hold off until you have either 15 stacks, or slightly less than 15 stacks, but one of your buffs (Dancing Steel, trinkets, both) procs.

  3. #163
    I don't understand what blizzard is suggesting.
    Were monks too strong before rune? Because taking rune out of the equation this is still a sizable nerf.

    Did they put any effort into the math before they released this patch?

  4. #164
    I don't like the result of the change, but I wasn't fond of playing around Rune RPPM RNG anyways.

    I guess it's harder to change a trinket, then change the mastery of class/spec. They will tune it, but maybe I'm echoing everyone in the thread that since they did such a bang up job in 5.2, we are all a little hesitant to have them go under the hood again and fix something that isn't broken. I'd rather they just leave it alone and let us keep the sideshow we have now. At least then they choose the devil they know instead of the devil they don't.

    If people could please keep their feedback to a dull roar about how they are quitting and unsubbing and all of that, we will all be better off.

    Math shows that if this went live it's a nerf for both RoRo users and those without, along with some tighter constraints on when we should be using one of our core abilities. Before everyone goes out for blood, realize that this is the PTR. Go play with a target dummy on the PTR and tell them how it feels.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    I think you are not understanding what is going on, the 100% chance I mentioned, the 22,200 Mastery Rating before the Mastery buff, is the CHANCE that a second TeB stack is applied when you use up 4 Chi (think the T15 4-piece how it has a 10% chance to generate a second TeB). the 100% uptime is if you use your TeB stack right when the previous one expires; or in this case a 20% damage boost constantly. I would say, don't try to go for 100% uptime on the buff but instead either hold off until you have either 15 stacks, or slightly less than 15 stacks, but one of your buffs (Dancing Steel, trinkets, both) procs.
    No, I mean, if you have 22.2k rating on gear, then your new proc rate will be 100%, so it will take you 30 chi to get a full stack, same as on live. So your uptime on the TeB damage buff will be the the same as you whatever you have on live today. I'm also asserting that your uptime on the damage buff today is probably around 40%-ish.

    Also at that amount of rating, TeB would have given you +110% damage, where on the PTR it will now only give you +75%. So the effective nerf is going to be around 110% - 75%) * 40% = 14%.

    (I got the math wrong in my previous post by taking the current buff size as 100% instead of 110%.)

    Disclaimer #1:
    This doesn't take into account things like lining it up with other buffs so that your TEB is a multiplier on an effectively larger fraction of your total damage. So in practice it might be as much as 20-25%?

    Disclaimer #2:
    This also doesn't take into account the fact that nobody has 22.2k static mastery on their gear. At a more reasonable 9.7k unbuffed, you'll get a 75% damage buff either way, but it'll usable less often on the PTR. This may be important or it may be irrelevant; if it changes a 1m cooldown to a 1m30 one, that might line up better with other cooldowns like trinket ICDs, engineering gloves, etc etc.

    My point is mostly that this is a nerf on the order of 10-20%, which is trivially fixable by changing the stance modifier and/or the RSK debuff. The important part is the mechanical changes, which are a) mastery is now relevant across the entire duration of the fight instead of only at the exact moments that you press the TEB button, b) TEB will always be worth a 75% damage bonus even if you are undergeared or pvp geared, and c) in PvE, TEB will be up less often than it is today.
    Last edited by Rockets; 2013-07-10 at 01:13 AM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconslicer View Post
    RSK debuff.
    Something about the idea of a single debuff giving a 40% damage boost bugs me
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  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    Something about the idea of a single debuff giving a 40% damage boost bugs me
    "Ohai" - said subtlety rogues. Granted, I've retired my trusty old stabby to an alt status long ago, and Sanguinary Vein isn't exactly 40%, but the idea is still the same - until you make the target bleed, you do shit damage to it.

  8. #168
    You'll probably just see the bonus damage baked into the stance. Path of least resistance and all that.

    Typical that after days of joy and wonderment at incoming changes to my shammy, they pull something like this on my other toon

  9. #169
    High Overlord Gulvan's Avatar
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    Will have to test it out with the new gemming/reforging and normal t16 trinkets.

    Remember that we wont be doing the 9000, 9000, 9001 reforging so we might have a lot more AP now which will make our normal non-proc/buff dps go up more than it is now, but will it counter the RoR boosted damage buff? Thats is the question simming will cover.
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  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Gulvan View Post
    Will have to test it out with the new gemming/reforging and normal t16 trinkets.

    Remember that we wont be doing the 9000, 9000, 9001 reforging so we might have a lot more AP now which will make our normal non-proc/buff dps go up more than it is now, but will it counter the RoR boosted damage buff? Thats is the question simming will cover.
    I don't think we need any sims to know that gemming and reforging agi will not come even close to making up the difference.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Gulvan View Post
    Will have to test it out with the new gemming/reforging and normal t16 trinkets.

    Remember that we wont be doing the 9000, 9000, 9001 reforging so we might have a lot more AP now which will make our normal non-proc/buff dps go up more than it is now, but will it counter the RoR boosted damage buff? Thats is the question simming will cover.
    As of right now, no. The change is a flat nerf that will have to be compensated in other ways. We got back part of the big 5.2 nerf in 5.3, but we are still nearly bottom tier dps without RoRo right now.

    I am less confident than some that Blizzard will do a good damage pass on windwalkers to compensate for this nerf, especially after the "haircut with a shotgun" approach they took to our damage in 5.2.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggety View Post
    As of right now, no. The change is a flat nerf that will have to be compensated in other ways. We got back part of the big 5.2 nerf in 5.3, but we are still nearly bottom tier dps without RoRo right now.

    I am less confident than some that Blizzard will do a good damage pass on windwalkers to compensate for this nerf, especially after the "haircut with a shotgun" approach they took to our damage in 5.2.

    And even with RoRO we're completely tied to randomness...
    Reading what Lore wrote on twitter https://twitter.com/devolore/status/354740912548622337 doesn't make me hope anything good.
    I mean, they change a mastery AGAIN and developers don't give a single explanation about it, and what are they going to do compesate the HUGE nerf received in PvE.

    Instead with this new mastery they gave a buff to PvP players and probably loads of people will cry that windwalkers do too much damage in PvP.
    With the current mastery everything's balanced out (in terms of damage increase), PvP players can't reach an enormous amount of mastery with their gear, so the TeB damage increase isn't much...
    The best they could do, leaving thing as they are, would be increasing TeB static damage only for PvE environment to something like 7%, and for PvP the classic 5%. Just like they did with the new hunter's stampede.

  13. #173
    I want to wait to see what else comes through the pipeline.. but.. it is kind of disconcerting to see devs post detailed explanations of Paladin changes and say absolutely nothing to us at all :/ I am nervous.
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  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by accosk8 View Post
    And even with RoRO we're completely tied to randomness...
    Reading what Lore wrote on twitter https://twitter.com/devolore/status/354740912548622337 doesn't make me hope anything good.
    I mean, they change a mastery AGAIN and developers don't give a single explanation about it, and what are they going to do compesate the HUGE nerf received in PvE.

    Instead with this new mastery they gave a buff to PvP players and probably loads of people will cry that windwalkers do too much damage in PvP.
    With the current mastery everything's balanced out (in terms of damage increase), PvP players can't reach an enormous amount of mastery with their gear, so the TeB damage increase isn't much...
    The best they could do, leaving thing as they are, would be increasing TeB static damage only for PvE environment to something like 7%, and for PvP the classic 5%. Just like they did with the new hunter's stampede.
    This isn't really a buff for pvp. We already had very slow ramp-up. Now it is even slower, albeit for a greater punch at the end. In arenas, the first 30 seconds of the game largely determine the outcome. WE're looking at 1.5 to 2 minutes to get the 15 stacks we need to bring out the big guns, meaning many other classes are going to be cycling through their cooldowns for the second time as we are getting to ours for the first time. It's everything we complained about for pvp just made worse.

    I am not sanguine about this at all.

  15. #175
    Okey. I claim it wont go live with those values. 2% chance per mastery (ie per 600 rating) is just nowhere near enough.

    Napkin math:
    Going back down to 6-7k haste (assuming no RoRo) we'd end up with the 13.33 egen/sec. I.e. 1 jab every 3sec that generates 2 Chi we can spens -> about 1 TEB stack generated every 6sec. So if only used at full power (15stacks) well have about 16.66% uptime. Base mastery mastery buff, and some 3k unreforgeablw mastery results in 36% chance for bonus TEB, increasing uptime to ~22.6%. As a simplification, ill say 25% due to combobreaker and heroism.

    So 25% of the time we do 175% dmg, 75% of the time 100%, resulting in 118.75% damage. (Compared to 0% TEB uptime)

    Now lwts assume we get the remaining 64% chance to end up with 100% bonuschance for a TEB stack. That would require 64*300= 19200 rating.
    Now we would get 2 stacks every 4 chi we spend (ie every 2 jabs we use) so 1 stack per jab, 1 stack every 3 seconds.
    New uptime: 33.3% adding some compensation for combobreaker and heroism lets say 40% uptime.

    So now 40% of the time doing 175% dmg, 60% doing 100% resulting in 130% dmg done.

    Comparing the gain of those 19200 stats in mastery that brought us to the cap: From 118.75% to 130% is a 9.5% damage increase.
    As a comparison: 19200 rating could be fuckin 32% crit. That would increase our damage by maybe 25%.

    Even if I made a lot of assumptiona and rounding, crit ending up being 2.5 times stronger shows that theres probably something wrong with the balancing.

    As I said in a previous post, for it to be competitive, it aould need 4-7% chance per mastery. Not meagre 2%

  16. #176
    Warchief Hinalover's Avatar
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    Elv on the main forums made an interesting observation. It appears that the new mastery will NOT have a cap; per-say. Instead of capping at 100%, it will start generating a chance for the next TeB. For example, say the patch goes live today and you still are using the Rune. Rune procs, and now you have 40200 Mastery Rating. This is equivalent of 150% chance to proc. The first 100% will go towards 2nd TeB, and the remaining 50% will go towards the 3rd TeB. Meaning while Rune is procced, you have A CHANCE of proccing 3 TeB. Granted there is going to be a Hard cap to Mastery at ~400% in it's current state but it is EXTREMELY unlikely we will be hitting that. ~400% is when we will be generating enough TeB so that we will be generating 15 stacks every 15 seconds (5 TeB per stack every 4 Chi used).
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-07-11 at 12:08 AM.

  17. #177
    Mechagnome TrollShaman's Avatar
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    The only problem I have is the fact that the Windwalker mastery gets changed in EVERY Pandarian Major patch. It's like they can't make up their minds. Inevitably in 6.0 it'll get changed yet again, but I'm just feeling pessimistic.

    It's too bad, I really enjoyed my 124% dmg bonus with Rune and around 5.9k mastery
    Last edited by TrollShaman; 2013-07-11 at 12:09 AM.

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  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    Elv on the main forums made an interesting observation. It appears that the new mastery will NOT have a cap; per-say. Instead of capping at 100%, it will start generating a chance for the next TeB. For example, say the patch goes live today and you still are using the Rune. Rune procs, and now you have 40200 Mastery Rating. This is equivalent of 150% chance to proc. The first 100% will go towards 2nd TeB, and the remaining 50% will go towards the 3rd TeB. Meaning while Rune is procced, you have A CHANCE of proccing 3 TeB. Granted there is going to be a Hard cap to Mastery at ~400% in it's current state but it is EXTREMELY unlikely we will be hitting that. ~400% is when we will be generating enough TeB so that we will be generating 15 stacks every 15 seconds (5 TeB per stack every 4 Chi used).
    I doubt anyone will be using Rune or approaching 100%. So while this is interesting news it probably has no performance impact.

    Did some Target dummy smashing on PTR today. No hard facts and I didn't write anything down, but it felt extremely gimp. The healing difference during TEB felt unnoticeable.

  19. #179
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...nd-discussion/

    Lore took the time to respond about the WW 5.4 issues.

    /skyisnotfalling

  20. #180
    Finding out that they haven't yet tried to keep Windwalker damage in line with 5.3 and that they aren't trying to nerf us is a very good thing to hear. Additionally, if the rumor that you can get more than 100% Mastery and actually benefit from it is true, that also bodes well for the Mastery long-term. The wording is quite weird though and seems to suggest only one bonus stack can proc.

    I feel a good deal better after Lore's post, for sure. We aren't getting the Shaman treatment.
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