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  1. #21
    God dammit. We raised concerns about RoR before they changed our mastery at the start of ToT and they just nerfed us by 20% instead.

    Now we're getting this.

    Unless something fucking major happens, this is terrible.
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  2. #22
    It's a quality of life improvement that can easily be tweaked into form. No more procs between pools, right before a head dies, right before windstorm, etc...

    Yeah, sometimes you hit the jackpot when you needed to, but generally our new ability to better control our burst will often make us better for our raids.

    The real question to me is how many hot-fixes it takes them to get the tweaking right, that's what we should be worried about.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nezka View Post
    It's a quality of life improvement that can easily be tweaked into form. No more procs between pools, right before a head dies, right before windstorm, etc...

    Yeah, sometimes you hit the jackpot when you needed to, but generally our new ability to better control our burst will often make us better for our raids.

    The real question to me is how many hot-fixes it takes them to get the tweaking right, that's what we should be worried about.
    or if they care enough about WW to hotfix anything.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    You can always switch to BrM. Only a 18% dmg nerf on Keg Smash.
    Buffed by 23%~ and now nerfed by 18% from that higher figure I hope, rather than revert it to what it was then add the 18% nerf on top.

    Also - definitely seems like a massive DPS loss. Particularly on damage scaling bosses (Horridon, Jin'rokh, Ji-Kun assuming you got food buff etc)
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Yohassakura View Post
    Buffed by 23%~ and now nerfed by 18% from that higher figure I hope, rather than revert it to what it was then add the 18% nerf on top.
    The 23% buff was a mining error if memory serves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Bows were made for tools of war. They go in the same pot as guns. There is ZERO reason to own a bow in 2014. Tools of war have no place in civilian homes.

  6. #26
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    I'm going to hold off on judgement until we can get some numbers going. If they are treating this similar to our T15 4-piece, then we need to know how much is our Base Mastery %. If the Base Mastery % is high, then it maybe not so bad, but it would still be a nerf. Even then we need to know if the T15 4-piece is Additive or Multiplicative.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    I'm going to hold off on judgement until we can get some numbers going. If they are treating this similar to our T15 4-piece, then we need to know how much is our Base Mastery %. If the Base Mastery % is high, then it maybe not so bad, but it would still be a nerf. Even then we need to know if the T15 4-piece is Additive or Multiplicative.
    At BEST the Mastery can only make our TeB stack generation equal to live given the 60chi vs 30chi change.
    Beyond that
    Even with 100% up time on TEB it would still be a nerf
    Monks are at 60-70% damage bonus on live in heroic gear minus rune proc & they choose 75% as their 15 stack number? Seems crazy low does it not?

    Even if the mastery scaling was absurdly high this would still be a nerf.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayma View Post
    TBH all WW had was it's damage scaling.
    Still Zero utility and now average damage? with poor scaling?

    What does a monk bring to the table?
    monks heal

  9. #29
    You all need to stop thinking about whether this is a buff or a nerf. It's a mechanical change, which is for purely design reasons. If Windwalker ends up weaker as a result, fixing it is as simple as increasing the RSK or Fierce Tiger modifiers. All of this discussion about whether it increases or lowers damage from live is irrelevant, that's not the point of the change.

  10. #30
    The Patient MasterOutlaw's Avatar
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    This is all kinds of jackassery. Instead of nerfing the trinket that's causing all of these problems they just keep adjusting Monk? They shouldn't have designed RoO the way they did in the first place, especially when they had plenty of forewarning. L2Logic, Blizzard. Makes a lot more sense to nerf the proc or the proc rate of the OP trinket in question instead of haphazardly changing Windwalkers again.

    I love my monk, but going from a terrible mastery to a good one and now being threatened with another new mastery that's arguably even worse than the original is making me want to reroll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    You all need to stop thinking about whether this is a buff or a nerf. It's a mechanical change, which is for purely design reasons. If Windwalker ends up weaker as a result, fixing it is as simple as increasing the RSK or Fierce Tiger modifiers. All of this discussion about whether it increases or lowers damage from live is irrelevant, that's not the point of the change.
    It's not even about being a nerf or a buff for me, this seems like poor logic on Blizzard's part. Without Rune Windwalker is pretty middle-of-the-road as far as DPS go so wouldn't it make more sense and be a lot easier to just take away Rune (and revert Fierce Tiger), which was clearly going to be OP even before ToT went live, instead of giving one class a rollercoaster of damaging adjustments? A third playstyle change is almost as many patches is a bit much, especially when it doesn't even appear to make sense.
    Last edited by MasterOutlaw; 2013-07-09 at 03:06 AM.

  11. #31
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayma View Post
    At BEST the Mastery can only make our TeB stack generation equal to live given the 60chi vs 30chi change.
    Beyond that
    Even with 100% up time on TEB it would still be a nerf
    Monks are at 60-70% damage bonus on live in heroic gear minus rune proc & they choose 75% as their 15 stack number? Seems crazy low does it not?

    Even if the mastery scaling was absurdly high this would still be a nerf.
    I'm not arguing that it is a nerf. I'm just saying that the numbers are too early to say what to make of it. Number adjustment can happen at anytime. Shoot, it would not suprise me if they change the Base TeB bonus damage to say 7% which would put it 105% increased damage at 15 stacks. What I'm saying is the chance needs to be viewed. If the base chance is 24%, that means my 9288 Mastery would provide a total of 70.44% chance to proc an extra TeB stack (not counting the T15 4-piece). It's most likely not going to be THAT high, but I'm just trying to provide numbers of where I'm coming from.

    Also this allows for Blizz to adjust nobs such as the TeB damage buff or the Mastery proc chance to something they can work with better than what they currently have.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Moncoko View Post
    monks heal
    WW heals?

    You mean those chi wave tickles with massive over heal?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayma View Post
    WW heals?

    You mean those chi wave tickles with massive over heal?
    Its a gc quote. It just shows how out of touch the design team is with the spec.

    Think the new WWer slogan should be:
    "Three tiers, three masterys, zero raid cooldowns"

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    I'm not arguing that it is a nerf. I'm just saying that the numbers are too early to say what to make of it. Number adjustment can happen at anytime. Shoot, it would not suprise me if they change the Base TeB bonus damage to say 7% which would put it 105% increased damage at 15 stacks. What I'm saying is the chance needs to be viewed. If the base chance is 24%, that means my 9288 Mastery would provide a total of 70.44% chance to proc an extra TeB stack (not counting the T15 4-piece). I'm just trying to provide numbers of where I'm coming from.

    Also this allows for Blizz to adjust nobs such as the TeB damage buff or the Mastery proc chance to something they can work with better than what they currently have.
    I just don't have faith in Blizzard to correctly adjust the numbers.
    These notes already prove that as far as I'm concerned. Within a matter of seconds you can tell this only makes the mastery ceiling equal to the current live & 75% is a gigantic drop in TeB average.

    It's not a nerf. It's a gutting and an obvious one at that.

  15. #35
    I'm not comprehending this change. Let me get this straight: They don't account for RoR coming into 5.2. They let it slide for the tier, because it would be too late to make any changes and without it WW monks aren't competitive (I think that's fair, mostly RNG related and just overall poor game design). They rework it once again, remove the reliance on RoR (again this is fair), but put in place a mastery which is just as reliant on RNG with 1/3 of the damage? This is where I think the devs have gone full retard. In it's current form, WW monks are 100% gimped. No one can argue otherwise. Obviously it's still the PTR and things are subject to change, but it really makes you wonder who's making these decisions, but they've obviously never played the spec before.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by bounstar View Post
    I'm not comprehending this change. Let me get this straight: They don't account for RoR coming into 5.2. They let it slide for the tier, because it would be too late to make any changes and without it WW monks aren't competitive (I think that's fair, mostly RNG related and just overall poor game design). They rework it once again, remove the reliance on RoR (again this is fair), but put in place a mastery which is just as reliant on RNG with 1/3 of the damage? This is where I think the devs have gone full retard. In it's current form, WW monks are 100% gimped. No one can argue otherwise. Obviously it's still the PTR and things are subject to change, but it really makes you wonder who's making these decisions, but they've obviously never played the spec before.
    The same people that nerfed WWers on patch day because they assumed Chi Wave was being used on CD. No worries that Chi Wave had been reported as bugged since beta.

  17. #37
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Well going back, I SUSPECT that the Base Mastery % is 16%. This is based on the fact that they are aiming for 50% cap-boost from live (10 stacks max to 15 stacks max). With that said, factoring in the mastery buff that would require 34% from mastery. If the base IS 16%, then that would require 10200 Mastery Rating with the Mastery Buff (7200 without) to reach that 50%.

    One other thing to keep in mind is the fact that they are reverting the number of Chi per TeB back to 5.0/5.1 values so it will take longer to reach that magical 15 stacks even with the 50% Mastery than it does live.

  18. #38
    "Three tiers, three masterys, zero raid cooldowns"

    Back to balance druid for me, enjoy the gutted spec because that's apparently easier than nerfing a trinket.
    Quote Originally Posted by Offhand
    I think this thread proves that in WotLK, not only has being bad and lazy become acceptable, but a defendable position and point of pride for some people.

  19. #39
    Don't think it would take too much effort to reach low 70's damage modifier without RoR and close to 200 with RoR procs next tier. Assuming 1/2 your Brews are from RoR procs that would average to ~135.

    Even if you were to get unlucky and only 1/4 of your Brews were trinket procs that still averages to over 100..... How was this number of 75 chosen?

  20. #40

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