WW Mastery redesigned (again) - Time to get 'rebalanced' (again)

[Protonova]

This is pre-damage numbers pass. Relax. Jeez.

It breaks RoRo, which is good. It is a good Mastery that won't interfere with the rotation like Combo Breaker did. Without a damage pass this is clearly a nerf into unviable territory, so they are obviously going to have to adjust numbers somewhere. I'm betting on RSK/Tiger Stance buffs.

Right well that's what im saying, but still how can they just do this to monks after forcing them to use RoRo for so long... However my point is, because they are releasing all this "beta" info, ppl will start judging monks for what they shouldn't. Monks at the moment aren't represented too well among the raiding scene. They're too few across top end raiding guilds and take a lot of skill to be competitive. And the stuff wowprogress released not to long ago make it seem that monks need heavy nerfs. I don't doubt because of wowprogress' dps list people are going to force blizzard's hand and cause monks to suck more at overall damage.

Look at my avatar now look at my monk's face, can you see any differences? Nope u_u

[fasti]

Don't like that blizzard is nerffing the randomness in gameplay ><

With rune gone for next tier, there might be 0 trinkets where you line up your brew... going to be boring rotation for us

Serial dislike

[Deleted]

I dont think that Non-monks are so knowledged when it comes to how much RoRo mastery actually does for us. I think they might see the 1%-5% increase and think that we are being buffed. Atleast that is what I have seen on some wow-streams that Ive been watching.

[Protonova]

I don't think that Non-monks are so knowledge when it comes to how much RoRo mastery actually does for us. I think they might see the 1%-5% increase and think that we are being buffed. At least that is what I have seen on some wow-streams that Ive been watching.

Well for those that don't know let me clarify... IT IS A FREAKING ~200% INCREASE IN DPS TO USE RoRo WISELY. *holds up a 10 foot banner lol* But seriously you go from ~140k to ~300k over a ~7mins.

@Fasti,
I feel the same. Monks are quite invigorating to play competitively. They took this away from feral druids which is what I had been playing for the longest. I had figured Monks were going to stay with a high risk high reward style (caz of our mastery) til next expac.

[Manu9]

What is annoying me is not the numbers, they get tuned, but going from a fun mastery to an extremely bland and boring one.

[bounstar]

What is annoying me is not the numbers, they get tuned, but going from a fun mastery to an extremely bland and boring one.

I wouldn't say the previous one was fun. Just infinitely better than the one we're getting now lol.

[Deleted]

Well for those that don't know let me clarify... IT IS A FREAKING 200% INCREASE IN DPS TO USE RoRo WISELY. *holds up a 10 foot banner lol*

Yeah, ran a hc instance with a guildy the other day and after the last boss (where I had 10 stacks and roro procced right away = 350k burst) he yelled " How tha fuck can your RSK do 352k dmg?!?!" And I just "eeh 352k? That must be a non-critt, mate. My max that fight was over 800k"

[George Costanza]

Why the hell do people want to be balanced around a trinket? Stance will probably get back to 20% or 15% before 5.4 is shipped anyway. GC will probably create threads like those they made with 5.2 and such stuff. The TEB change is great TBH. We will probably see tomorrow what the masterys numbers are, baseline and how much it is per rating and such things...

[Protonova]

Why the hell do people want to be balanced around a trinket? Stance will probably get back to 20% or 15% before 5.4 is shipped anyway. GC will probably create threads like those they made with 5.2 and such stuff. The TEB change is great TBH. We will probably see tomorrow what the masterys numbers are, baseline and how much it is per rating and such things...

Well let me ask you, isn't it exciting to get the RoRo proc? Doesn't it keep you focused on all ur class mechanics? RoRo seriously keeps me engaged and usually picks up my morale sometimes. Like some have already pointed out The new change even though it's just an initial change it really does seem like they aren't just balancing it but also reducing the overall creativity of the class. Not that I'm saying you or me are right, we'll have to wait and see. I will miss RoRo dearly.

[Zonex]

Everyone's wasting their time, atm its is JUST A MECHANICAL change.. get with it. Numbers will be tweaked. There really is nothing to speculate about, just like legendary cloak procs have no ground for speculation sicne we dont have all the data (RPPM values).

People are saying, we WONT be able to get 1+ extra TeB cuz of mastery. Who the fuck told you this? Have you seen the build on PTR and tested it? Nope.. youre complaining built on one assumption. What if the assumption was that mastery starts at 103% and each 1k mastery gives you 30% more, hell everytime you'd get a TeB stack, it would give you like 4 charges..

My point is, there really is no point in all this speculation.

yea and don't say.. "oh even with 100% uptime, its a dps loss over Rune".. you assume that ALL the other variables in our abilities are held constant.. its PTR, it will get tweaked, and we'll have a right to complain and bite off Blizzard's head when it finally gets there.. before that, this is just mindless drivel, and complaining for the sake of complaining. A class shouldn't rely on a trinket to be compettive, this mechanic change, releases us from the burden that is RoRo... so yea

[Deldavala]

Well let me ask you, isn't it exciting to get the RoRo proc? Doesn't it keep you focused on all ur class mechanics? RoRo seriously keeps me engaged and usually picks up my morale sometimes. Like some have already pointed out The new change even though it's just an initial change it really does seem like they aren't just balancing it but also reducing the overall creativity of the class. Not that I'm saying you or me are right, we'll have to wait and see. I will miss RoRo dearly.

Of course we will miss it, but its better for the total gameplay. Having more control of your burst, not being reliant on a trinket that will be obsolete next expansion, more consistent DPS and so forth.

[accosk8]

Everyone's wasting their time, atm its is JUST A MECHANICAL change.. get with it. Numbers will be tweaked. There really is nothing to speculate about, just like legendary cloak procs have no ground for speculation sicne we dont have all the data (RPPM values).

People are saying, we WONT be able to get 1+ extra TeB cuz of mastery. Who the fuck told you this? Have you seen the build on PTR and tested it? Nope.. youre complaining built on one assumption. What if the assumption was that mastery starts at 103% and each 1k mastery gives you 30% more, hell everytime you'd get a TeB stack, it would give you like 4 charges..

My point is, there really is no point in all this speculation.

yea and don't say.. "oh even with 100% uptime, its a dps loss over Rune".. you assume that ALL the other variables in our abilities are held constant.. its PTR, it will get tweaked, and we'll have a right to complain and bite off Blizzard's head when it finally gets there.. before that, this is just mindless drivel, and complaining for the sake of complaining. A class shouldn't rely on a trinket to be compettive, this mechanic change, releases us from the burden that is RoRo... so yea

You have too much faith in what blizzard does, and how they think they are doing.

True, set us free from RoRO, but not by changing the mastery for god's sake. Just nerf the trinket, don't make it snapshot any stat, but just don't change the whole mastery, AGAIN!
So maybe this (http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102312) will have a meaning. Not as powerful as RoRO, but it'd make up for the loss.

3 tiers, 3 masteries, what the hell is going on?

[Felade]

Right well that's what im saying, but still how can they just do this to monks after forcing them to use RoRo for so long... However my point is, because they are releasing all this "beta" info, ppl will start judging monks for what they shouldn't. Monks at the moment aren't represented too well among the raiding scene. They're too few across top end raiding guilds and take a lot of skill to be competitive. And the stuff wowprogress released not to long ago make it seem that monks need heavy nerfs. I don't doubt because of wowprogress' dps list people are going to force blizzard's hand and cause monks to suck more at overall damage.

1) When we signed up for Monk, we signed up for the rollercoaster. Its a new class, and changes are bound to happen rapidly and often. I agree its a bit crazy to have to essentially relearn the class every tier, but again, that's kind of what we signed up for.

2) Lets be honest about raiding representation. Outside of world-first level guilds, the primary cause of low Monk representation is due to the 1-90 leveling gap that DKs didn't have to deal with. Yeah, if we had been massively overpowered out of the gate, then folks would have flocked to Monk. But the fact that people did not flock to Monk doesn't necessarily mean Monks are bad. Tier 14, Mistweavers were way OP, and even now that Brewmasters are considered OP as a tank, you don't see people flooding onto their Monk alts right and left.

Most world-first guilds are 25 man, and our utility concerns are a bit less glaring there: no one cares what buffs you bring in 25s because you're pretty much guaranteed to have them all. Not having some sort of game breaking raid cooldown/utility is a problem, but this Mastery change doesn't affect that one way or another.

Which brings us back to our damage. Right now, our biggest selling point is our damage. If they fix our numbers, we should be fine, and less RNG dependent (RoRo level damage overall, without having to track a trinket proc!) If they don't fix our numbers, then there will be a problem. But the huge size of this nerf basically screams *DON'T WORRY, WILL FIX*

[Jaggid]

I hate being balanced around a trinket, gonna wait and see what else they do to balance us.

[Protonova]

1) When we signed up for Monk, we signed up for the rollercoaster. Its a new class, and changes are bound to happen rapidly and often. I agree its a bit crazy to have to essentially relearn the class every tier, but again, that's kind of what we signed up for.

2) Lets be honest about raiding representation. Outside of world-first level guilds, the primary cause of low Monk representation is due to the 1-90 leveling gap that DKs didn't have to deal with. Yeah, if we had been massively overpowered out of the gate, then folks would have flocked to Monk. But the fact that people did not flock to Monk doesn't necessarily mean Monks are bad. Tier 14, Mistweavers were way OP, and even now that Brewmasters are considered OP as a tank, you don't see people flooding onto their Monk alts right and left.

Most world-first guilds are 25 man, and our utility concerns are a bit less glaring there: no one cares what buffs you bring in 25s because you're pretty much guaranteed to have them all. Not having some sort of game breaking raid cooldown/utility is a problem, but this Mastery change doesn't affect that one way or another.

Which brings us back to our damage. Right now, our biggest selling point is our damage. If they fix our numbers, we should be fine, and less RNG dependent (RoRo level damage overall, without having to track a trinket proc!) If they don't fix our numbers, then there will be a problem. But the huge size of this nerf basically screams *DON'T WORRY, WILL FIX*

I think you're missing the point, and yes it's all about personal preference. I personally don't like opinionated design where control is taken out of my hands. I like working hard for my rotation. But anyways that's beside the point.

No one is talking about Monk gaps in terms of population because coming from Area 52 one of the largest servers, there are monks everywhere. The gap I was speaking of is the gap caused by the learning curve vs the instability of the class over tiers. Ranged > Melee, Priests > Mistweavers, Pally > BrewMaster. All unfair because monks don't have that game breaking mechanic as other classes do. Not our fault priest bubbles are op, or that pally tanks can solo tank any debuff mechanic, or that melee sucks this expansion (an excuse I don't agree with btw, i love melee this expansion).

And no 1 is concerned about buffs anymore not since cata. So all irrelevant information, I feel blizzard did a good job making class buffs homologous. Right now our biggest selling point in 25m heroics is our survivability vs dps output. And yes you're right about "don't worry, will fix" no one is saying otherwise. Personally I was hoping this would happen at the next expansion, not a 2nd time in this tier.

And so everyone understands my stance. I am not saying this is the end all be all of nerfs. This is only the 2nd wave of monk re-balancing. There is still so much to do, they still haven't even released the monk tier models. So please don't feel im judging the dps tweaks.

[George Costanza]

Well let me ask you, isn't it exciting to get the RoRo proc? Doesn't it keep you focused on all ur class mechanics? RoRo seriously keeps me engaged and usually picks up my morale sometimes. Like some have already pointed out The new change even though it's just an initial change it really does seem like they aren't just balancing it but also reducing the overall creativity of the class. Not that I'm saying you or me are right, we'll have to wait and see. I will miss RoRo dearly.

Only thing I liked about the trinket was being able to do big critters as a melee. I definetly do not find getting the proc tp be "Exciting". Especially outside raiding (not counting Brawlers, as it is kind of useful in there) Might just be me but I find it ever more boring to do dailies or weeklies or whatever, and have the trinket proc with 0 stacks (because 0 crit rating and 0 haste = outside of TEB feels dull for me. I am very glad they changed the mastery. because having to depend on that trinket while leveling for next expansion would make me go reroll enhance or druid or something along those lines.

[Frogged]

I was initially okay with the change, as 5.2's Mastery is just not designed to work well long-term. However, the more I think about this new Mastery, the more I dislike it. Due to their change of 1 stack per 4 Chi spent instead of 3, even if our Mastery was capped at 100% chance for an extra stack, we'd still be seeing the exact same TEB stacks that we had before the patch, and they would be significantly worse.

Hopefully they tweak the 5% damage per stack number, else our Mastery will have a cap and/or be completely useless. No amount of number tweaking will save it, apart from Blizzard adding the chance to proc more than one bonus TEB stack. If that's implemented, the new Mastery will certainly have a chance along with numerous other tweaks they'll have to do. Right now, the wording seems to indicate that it cannot proc more than one bonus stack, however.

Perhaps we'll be moving back toward our pre-5.2 setup of being a spec with completely static damage output. However, the sole Mastery change would not be enough for that and we'll have to see significant improvements elsewhere.

Ultimately, 5.2's Mastery wasn't ideal, but this seems worse from a long-term standpoint. I'd prefer a much more simple Mastery that has nothing to do with TEB.

[Felade]

No one is talking about Monk gaps in terms of population because coming from Area 52 one of the largest servers, there are monks everywhere. The gap I was speaking of is the gap caused by the learning curve vs the instability of the class over tiers. Ranged > Melee, Priests > Mistweavers, Pally > BrewMaster. All unfair because monks don't have that game breaking mechanic as other classes do. Not our fault priest bubbles are op, or that pally tanks can solo tank any debuff mechanic, or that melee sucks this expansion (an excuse I don't agree with btw, i love melee this expansion).

It is still Priest>Mistweaver>everyone else (except maybe Holy Paladins if we're talking Hand of Protection) for healers, and Pally > Brewmaster > everyone else for tanks. And as for Ranged>Melee, well, I agree there, but we do have some of the best mobility and personal survivability of any melee, which is important. Even world first guilds are still bringing melee, and they aren't just bringing Rogues, either.

If you are basing your liking of a class based on whether its FOTM, well, you're just setting yourself up for continual disappointment.

And no 1 is concerned about buffs anymore not since cata.

10 mans would like to have a word with you.

And no 1 is concerned about buffs anymore not since cata. So all irrelevant information, I feel blizzard did a good job making class buffs homologous. Right now our biggest selling point in 25m heroics is our survivability vs dps output. And yes you're right about "don't worry, will fix" no one is saying otherwise. Personally I was hoping this would happen at the next expansion, not a 2nd time in this tier.

They had to do something about RoRo. And they had to do something about our dependence on RoRo for all our damage. They probably got A LOT of feedback from WW's about how they didn't like having all their damage balanced around a single trinket that may or may not ever drop, so they made us less dependent on any trinket or gear. All with one mechanic change to our Mastery.

I think you're missing the point, and yes it's all about personal preference. I personally don't like opinionated design where control is taken out of my hands. I like working hard for my rotation. But anyways that's beside the point

.

Not understanding you here. This new Bottled Fury will be better than what we had in t14 as far as skill goes, where you didn't react to buffs or anything at all, just blindly mashed your rotation, even through Herolust, but removes the whole "OMG TRINKET PROC" issue with RoRo (which was pretty fun, admittedly, but then ridiculous damage is generally pretty fun).

[Protonova]

10 mans would like to have a word with you.

You have a point with the 10 man in some cases. Melee is always in shortage when I do pugs on my feral druid. Nonetheless I raid with a 10 man and we have no problems with buffs. Regardless I think blizz is doing a great job with the class buffs and even though the problem still exists it's not something to put a lot of focus on.

They had to do something about RoRo. And they had to do something about our dependence on RoRo for all our damage. They probably got A LOT of feedback from WW's about how they didn't like having all their damage balanced around a single trinket that may or may not ever drop, so they made us less dependent on any trinket or gear. All with one mechanic change to our Mastery.

Yes they did have to nerf RoRo, I was hoping at the end of the expansion. Our dependency to RoRo is like a drug for ppl that have learned to utilize it to the fullest. It's sorta like "Flash" from the tv show Andromeda (lol). But what bothers me the most is our mastery skill isn't dependent so much on the mastery stat anymore... so wtf? I'm rather intrigued at what they may come up with. It's all speculation, but I hope they don't fold in to the QQing of ppl that don't understand monk dps on the forum threads wowprogress flared.

Not understanding you here. This new Bottled Fury will be better than what we had in t14 as far as skill goes, where you didn't react to buffs or anything at all, just blindly mashed your rotation, even through Herolust, but removes the whole "OMG TRINKET PROC" issue with RoRo (which was pretty fun, admittedly, but then ridiculous damage is generally pretty fun).

Sorry I was doing a lot of other things while responding. What I mean't was it seems blizzard is adjusting our dps in a way that takes control and reaction away from the player like what they did to feral dps much early on. Where absolute mastery over your rotation was essential to dps (DPS = skill in rotation). I'm not 100% against this but just giving us default buffs across the spectrum kinda seems half @#!ed to me : /

[SurrealNight]

I would like to see some #'s from people raiding on the PTR and how this stacks up to the other melee DPS with the change and equping 2x "normal" DPS trinkets. I think the people that designed and let live RoRo are fairly hated by the dev team and these are just steps to fix and address a class linked to a specific item in theory from here until the servers shut down.

Seems like this makes it much easier to balance WW dps just by tweaking how fast Chi generates stacks and how often mastery procs (and scales). Lines up with the half hearted healing change they are trying to tout as well.

I wouldn't say the sky is falling yet since they can still play with Chi generation, Mastery proc's, and even individual powers like RSK to put things in line.