Page 11 of 17 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
12
13
... LastLast
  1. #201
    @Biggety

    Are you taking Combo Breaker procs into account in your calculation? CB procs equate to 8.34 chi/min at that level of haste.

    TEB uptime is not a very good metric. Tigereye Brew gives you the same overall benefit regardless of how many stacks that you use; using TEB at 15 stacks gives you the biggest burst, but ideally you should be using it when you need it, i.e. with trinket procs, lust, or when burst is needed. Using TEB only when you have 15 stacks is suboptimal. My spreadsheet lowballs TEB in that it makes an assumption that you blanket your rotation with TEB with 100% uptime, but at a lower magnitude.

    I looked on the PTR and the Chi/TEB looks to be 3 again. I'll verify.

  2. #202
    I haven't gone through the spreadsheet, but I think just basic math is required to know the end results are not accurate.

  3. #203
    High Overlord Gulvan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    North Bay, CA
    Posts
    113
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayma View Post
    I haven't gone through the spreadsheet, but I think just basic math is required to know the end results are not accurate.
    This is the second time you have said "basic math" in a response to something. Prove it. Show me your basic math that says his results here are not accurate. Rotund has always done an excellent job with the spreadsheets and right now has the /4 on chi generation calculation.

    @Rotund this is based on your current gear level, correct? If so I wonder how well our scaling will be with the new gear and trinkets etc. Ill have to copy this current sheet and input my information and see how it will be. I agree it will be a pain to regem, but at least we wont have to do the dumb 9/9/9.001 crap like now. It'll make upgrade more smooth and easier to do.
    Host of Monkcraft Podcast and Co-Host of Groupquest

  4. #204
    Herald of the Titans Hinalover's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,765
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    I looked on the PTR and the Chi/TEB looks to be 3 again. I'll verify.
    Well I did some "What-ifs" with your spreadsheet, changing the amount of mastery % per 600 mastery and whether to go with 3 Chi to TeB or 4 Chi to TeB.

    Basically what I came up with is that Crit will ALWAYS be better than Mastery unless they change the Chi to TeB down to 1 Chi. No other time will Mastery be better, or come close to Crit.

    The only other way I could come up with Mastery being ABOUT equal to Crit (though not over it) is if they revert the change back to 3 Chi a minute and up the TeB Value to 15% per stack.

    Actually increasing the proc rate will only separate the value of Mastery and Crit even further and that the only way to increase the value is by increasing the TeB value or Chi to TeB.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-07-11 at 06:01 PM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    @Biggety

    Are you taking Combo Breaker procs into account in your calculation? CB procs equate to 8.34 chi/min at that level of haste.

    TEB uptime is not a very good metric. Tigereye Brew gives you the same overall benefit regardless of how many stacks that you use; using TEB at 15 stacks gives you the biggest burst, but ideally you should be using it when you need it, i.e. with trinket procs, lust, or when burst is needed. Using TEB only when you have 15 stacks is suboptimal. My spreadsheet lowballs TEB in that it makes an assumption that you blanket your rotation with TEB with 100% uptime, but at a lower magnitude.

    I looked on the PTR and the Chi/TEB looks to be 3 again. I'll verify.
    I hadn't seen the change back to 3 chi per stack. Keep in mind that the tooltip probably hasn't been updated. I was going off the patch notes changing it to 4 chi per stack.

    And yes, I had neglected to include combo breakers. Apologies.

    "Uptime" probably wasn't the right word choice as well. What I meant was that you were showing too many stacks gained for amount of chi spent regardless of how the stacks were used. 56 chi spent per minute at 4 chi per stack with 50% mastery chance of extra stack should be 21 stacks per minute, or sustainable flat dps increase of 26.5% over non TeB buffed damage. That's if you blanket your TeB over your whole rotation. If TeB is used intelligently together with trinket/enchant procs the damage increase will be somewhat higher.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    Well I did some "What-ifs" with your spreadsheet, changing the amount of mastery % per 600 mastery and whether to go with 3 Chi to TeB or 4 Chi to TeB.

    Basically what I came up with is that Crit will ALWAYS be better than Mastery unless they change the Chi to TeB down to 1 Chi. No other time will Mastery be better, or come close to Crit.

    The only other way I could come up with Mastery being ABOUT equal to Crit (though not over it) is if they revert the change back to 3 Chi a minute and up the TeB Value to 15% per stack.

    Actually increasing the proc rate will only separate the value of Mastery and Crit even further and that the only way to increase the value is by increasing the TeB value or Chi to TeB.
    Well, that's depressing. We go from mastery rating being garbage in 5.0 to being useful in 5.1, and now it's bad again. This will directly impact how well we scale with gear at high levels as haste is already effectively capped in current gear.

    If scaling well with heroic gear is what is saving our raid spots right now, what happens when that gear scaling takes a hit?

    - - - Updated - - -

    And before I forget, nice work with the spreadsheet. Having numbers to back up or dispel concerns is always a good thing.
    Last edited by Biggety; 2013-07-11 at 06:08 PM.

  6. #206
    Herald of the Titans Hinalover's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,765
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    I looked on the PTR and the Chi/TEB looks to be 3 again. I'll verify.
    BTW I hopped onto the PTR and it is showing as 4 Chi/TeB in the tooltip.



    Also as a test I did a single RSK and a Tiger Palm, and I didn't get a stack of TeB (using the T16 that is sold) until I did another BoK.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-07-11 at 07:04 PM.

  7. #207
    @Gulvan Yea. I used my armory gearset, and used Ask Mr. Robot to reforge it for a non-RoRo world, and used Simcraft to calcluate the average ability damage for 5.3 and used to model 5.4

    @Biggety Thanks, I appreciate it =)

    @Hina Okay, I see that you are right. I'll make the change and report back. Definitely this will make mastery scale worse, and lower our damage. Thanks for looking at the tooltip and doing the training dummy test.

    I'm still also looking to see how the mastery calculation is formulated. Currently I have it modeled as Mastery = MasteryRating/300 +16 as I took from the PTR character sheet:



    Hina and other people have been using the equation Mastery = (MasteryRating/600) * 2 + 8

    I'm at work at the moment so I can't log on. If someone could log on the PTR and see, check your mastery with bad juju or some large mastery budget item on and off and report how mastery changes. If the equation is the latter, DPS will scale better with mastery, as it gets a x2 multiplier applied. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it might not matter either way how the equation is written, but I'll verify that.

    Hina, where did you see that equation. I can't divine it from the patch notes or the datamining, so I just used the PTR client as my source.

    Edit:
    Made the change, and the new mastery as it exists on the PTR is a nerf. Well, at least we know what it will take to improve it! 3 Chi/TEB will make everything better (hopefully)

  8. #208
    Just going from that screenshot and knowing that base mastery is 4800 and it must be linear with 0-intercept, we only need 1 data point:
    (4800+8430)/(16+28.1) = 300 mastery per 1%

    0 mastery: (4800+0)/300 = 16%
    8430 mastery: (4800+8430)/300 = 44.10%

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by raffy View Post
    Just going from that screenshot and knowing that base mastery is 4800 and it must be linear with 0-intercept, we only need 1 data point:
    (4800+8430)/(16+28.1) = 300 mastery per 1%

    0 mastery: (4800+0)/300 = 16%
    8430 mastery: (4800+8430)/300 = 44.10%
    Precisely, and that's how I have it modeled currently. I'm just wondering if it even matters which way the equation is written to determine how well our DPS scales with mastery. My guess is no.

  10. #210
    Herald of the Titans Hinalover's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,765
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    Hina, where did you see that equation. I can't divine it from the patch notes or the datamining, so I just used the PTR client as my source.
    It's always been that way. It's:

    Mastery = (MasteryRating/600) * (Base Mastery % / 8) + Base Mastery %

    The way it works is back in Cata the base Mastery # was 8 the MasteryRating/600 would add onto that 8 value. It would then convert that Mastery # into a %. Even the Mastery Buff would supply 5 Mastery. What Blizzard did was that they removed the Mastery # and went straight to the Mastery %. So the 3000 Mastery Rating today is the same as the 5 Mastery as before.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-07-11 at 08:49 PM.

  11. #211
    Gotcha, you told me that before over in EJ, but it didn't sink in. Good to know.

    I guess Blizzard is just giving us an accelerated workout that every other class had to relearn how to play every time they released an expansion. Only we get to do it once per tier. Nbd.

  12. #212
    On the PTR Chi Brew does not seem to have a chance to proc extra Tigerseye Brew via mastery. The forums are down so I can't ask whether this is intended or not currently.

  13. #213
    I think most are pretty close to the 50% mastery range on PTR. Assuming they did revert back to 3 chi per stack with 50% mastery our stack generation would be identical relative to what a full brew is (15 on PTR 10 on live).

    Then the real difference becomes the ~180+/~65 that RoRo provides vs. the static 75. Does a different trinket + reforging, regemming, and not having to deal with the 10 second RoRo ramp up time make up that difference.

  14. #214
    Or to put it another way, under the hood it's:

    Mastery% = (8 + Rating/600) * Multiplier

    and you can calculate what the Multipler is by doing:
    Multiplier = Base% / 8.
    or
    Multiplier = 600 / (rating needed for 1%)

    This is why when they adjust the scaling on mastery, the base mastery% also changes. All they're actually doing is changing the multiplier, which means that the base 8 is worth a different amount of mastery% too. BrM had a multiplier of 0.5 at launch, giving a base mastery of 4% and 1200 mastery rating for each +1%. When they buffed it by 25% in 5.1, the multiplier became 0.625, for a base mastery of 5% and 960 mastery per +1%.

  15. #215
    I find it crazy that since GC tweeted 1 sentence about our healing wich was month ago. We had absolutely NO FEEDBACK at all about our sitation. When i log onto MMO champ and see some class had like 5 or 6 blue post over the week it feels kinda weird.

    There were a shitloads of post written since PTR started and we dont even have a clue if they are working on something for our raid utility ...

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Asacado View Post
    Because blizz has no idea what they are doing to not make us stupidly op. To further add insult to injury, we've gone through 3 masterys (yes 5.4 counts) and they do not give us any thought behind it. Were back to proc chances which do not make us wanting to stack insane amounts in hopes we get 1 more stack. Flat damage increases similar to ret that grant percentage based increases to even 1-2 abilites would make us go ape-shit.
    Personally I'm not a fan of flat percentage damage increases, they're not exciting or interesting at all, they function the same as crit in that it's a percentage damage increase over the course of a fight and nothing more. At least TEB focused masteries are interesting in that more mastery changes the way you play, although more TEB is probably the least interesting mastery we could get. We have a wide variety of things surrounding TEB that could be interesting: a buff after TEB fades based on mastery and TEB usage (higher chi or energy gen?), increasing the duration of TEB, giving some amount of crit and/or haste during TEB that scales with mastery, there's an entire world out there. We don't need a Ret or Assa type mastery that is little more than an attack power equivalent.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Eznor View Post
    I find it crazy that since GC tweeted 1 sentence about our healing wich was month ago. We had absolutely NO FEEDBACK at all about our sitation. When i log onto MMO champ and see some class had like 5 or 6 blue post over the week it feels kinda weird.

    There were a shitloads of post written since PTR started and we dont even have a clue if they are working on something for our raid utility ...
    And the 1 sentence that GC did type had very little to do with reality.

    According to participation numbers, the spec is dead, and it appears blizz doesn't really care.

  18. #218
    Deleted
    I'm getting really tired of our mastery changing so much. This tier addressed our daft ramp up time by increasing our stack generation speed, boosted further by our set bonus. On fights where we use heroism on the pull, i find myself struggling to keep up with the likes of the rogue in our group who is doing stupid burst at the start of every fight. TEB is great in theory, but it's hopeless on fights without prolonged chi expendature. A better solution might be to have a passive regeneration of TEB and for every 6 or 8 chi we gain an additional stack? this means we arent short at the start of a fight and chi brewing will still be a class mechanic. We also wont get gimped on fights with wait peroids.

  19. #219
    Couple GC Twitter quotes from today:

    "The intent isn't to nerf WW overall -- we're not finished yet. It will end up with Rune just being good instead of crazy OP."
    "Yes. I believe the very next build has some buffs. We are still adjusting mechanics more than numbers at this stage."
    Kind of interesting I'm not sure how it's possible to make Rune "good".

  20. #220
    Glad to see GC talk about this- someone linked him this MMOC thread which is a terrible idea, half the people in this thread are whining nonstop

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •