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  1. #101
    Basically yes you could say AG is comparable to Ascendance. If you can use it when the raid is stacked, or atleast majority of the raid is, it can output a lot. Even now it can be better than HTT on several Heroic 25 fights, so I'm sure it will be viable versus the new talent.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    I don't mind babysitting my HST if it's going to reward me like that. That + buffed chain heal + glyph means I can stop complaining about spread healing, getting my heals sniped, and healing on the move is going to be a bit less painful now as well.

    I'm pretty chuffed, to be honest.
    My problem with HST is, that it is a passive, and unreliable heal. It looks good on your logs, "oh it healed x amount in the whole fight, gg", but I want my heals to be direct. I want to control my spread healing. And HST also a really.. weird mini cooldown, 14 sec uptime (if you call it back) 30 sec cd. It is not really an active thing that you can rely on, it's just... there. I hoped that we get a REAL spread healing something.
    Last edited by Lei; 2013-07-10 at 12:55 PM.

  3. #103
    AG would need to do about 3.3M per (on CD) use to keep up with my HST being buffed 130% on DA25H. And about 2.5M on Durumu25H.
    If the healing rain 25M-DR buff goes live, getting that much healing from AG will likely be a complete joke. Depending on the fight of course.

    The 15% buff+additional for the new RST is a fairly reasonable talent. I could see it going live as it is. I'm a bit curious to if they'll taking healing rain back off AG now that AG doesn't have to compete with HTT... it's definitely something to watch out for on the PTR since the tooltip didn't/doesn't change when they flip that switch.
    Last edited by Pitkanen; 2013-07-10 at 01:43 PM. Reason: typo

  4. #104
    AG is allready insanely powerfull on figths like council and Magerra, jsut as if not better than HTT even (in HC gear) granting us both HTT Spiritwalker's grace AG and Ascendance is so absolutely stupid CD wise (offcourse Rushing is gonna be better than any of the others until it is nerfed tho.)

    Conductivity could be extremely interesting in heacy haste builds, for 25 man especially, paired up with the changes to CH and the glyph, 25 man resto shamans are gonna be Amazing, and 10 mans getting quite the boost aswell.

    As for ENH and ELE i can foresee Rushing being used with HST on CD turning us into the shadow priest's little brother (which is by no mean a bad thing)

    Perhapse this is accualyl the niche thoose speccs have lacked for all theese years?

  5. #105
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    My problem with HST is, that it is a passive, and unreliable heal. It looks good on your logs, "oh it healed x amount in the whole fight, gg", but I want my heals to be direct. I want to control my spread healing. And HST also a really.. weird mini cooldown, 14 sec uptime (if you call it back) 30 sec cd. It is not really an active thing that you can rely on, it's just... there. I hoped that we get a REAL spread healing something.
    All healers have to contend with smart heals that are out of their control. Think of Prayer of Mending, Circle of Healing, Renewing Mists, Chi Wave, Eminence, Wild Growth, Treants. So many self-guided heals. It's just a way the game is played. I find it interesting and entertain to work within the limitations of the game.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Pitkanen View Post
    AG would need to do about 3.3M per (on CD) use to keep up with my HST being buffed 130% on DA25H. And about 2.5M on Durumu25H.
    If the healing rain 25M-DR buff goes live, getting that much healing from AG will likely be a complete joke. Depending on the fight of course.

    The 15% buff+additional for the new RST is a fairly reasonable talent. I could see it going live as it is. I'm a bit curious to if they'll taking healing rain back off AG now that AG doesn't have to compete with HTT... it's definitely something to watch out for on the PTR since the tooltip didn't/doesn't change when they flip that switch.
    i doubt they will since r shaman are really that far behind. Furthermore we are approaching CD overload with the added 4piece. I think its all going to come down to two choices for each fight
    1. Constant or Burst damage. -> Burst use AG
    2. spread or stacked heavy fight. -> RS vs Cond

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by shammypie View Post
    i doubt they will since r shaman are really that far behind. Furthermore we are approaching CD overload with the added 4piece. I think its all going to come down to two choices for each fight
    1. Constant or Burst damage. -> Burst use AG
    2. spread or stacked heavy fight. -> RS vs Cond
    Really far behind in 25's? The buffs in 25 so far are... ignoring the HR DR-cap increase
    *2.5k less spirit required (if you use riptide every 7 seconds)... translates to more crit or ~2 chain heals a minute (depends on crit levels)
    *+2yds Healing Rain
    *140% more powerful HTT
    *57% stronger Chain Heal
    *Choice of 'free' additional lvl 75 talent (so ~15% buff over live without maintaining 2pt15)

    We aren't so far behind that we also need 133% stronger Healing Rain on stacked fights in 25 man. If you are doing 100k hps, and 30% of your healing is healing rain, that alone would amount to a 40k hps increase.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Pitkanen View Post
    Really far behind in 25's? The buffs in 25 so far are... ignoring the HR DR-cap increase
    *2.5k less spirit required (if you use riptide every 7 seconds)... translates to more crit or ~2 chain heals a minute (depends on crit levels)
    *+2yds Healing Rain
    *140% more powerful HTT
    *57% stronger Chain Heal
    *Choice of 'free' additional lvl 75 talent (so ~15% buff over live without maintaining 2pt15)

    We aren't so far behind that we also need 133% stronger Healing Rain on stacked fights in 25 man. If you are doing 100k hps, and 30% of your healing is healing rain, that alone would amount to a 40k hps increase.
    I 100% disagree. Stacked healing is our niche, and our toolkit is balanced around us being very strong in that niche (i.e. our spread raid healing tools are very lacking.). Under that design, we have every right to expect to dominate stacked healing, and GC confirmed last week over Twitter that their intent is that Shaman are better than every other healer when the raid is stacked. In T15, we are actually behind every other healer on 25 man stacked healing fights. When you are in last place in something that you should be dominating, you need significant buffs in that area.

    If these buffs were to go live in ToT, sure we would probably be the #1 overall healer. However, ToT is going to be largely irrelevant the second 5.4 drops, and SoO fight design (and we have seen something like 11 of 14 fights) is more antagonistic to our niche than Firelands or ToT. That is going to prevent it from being a huge balance issue. However, the phases of fights where we can stack up, we will noticeably shine, as we should given their design intent for our "niche".

    Overall, I don't think we were overbuffed, in light of the fight design and how I expect the buffs will play out under that fight design. We will potentially be close to Disc/Druids/Mistweavers when we play well and manage our CDs effectively. It might be the first time Shaman will be better than below average since arguably T6.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I 100% disagree. Stacked healing is our niche, and our toolkit is balanced around us being very strong in that niche (i.e. our spread raid healing tools are very lacking.). Under that design, we have every right to expect to dominate stacked healing, and GC confirmed last week over Twitter that their intent is that Shaman are better than every other healer when the raid is stacked. In T15, we are actually behind every other healer on 25 man stacked healing fights. When you are in last place in something that you should be dominating, you need significant buffs in that area.

    If these buffs were to go live in ToT, sure we would probably be the #1 overall healer. However, ToT is going to be largely irrelevant the second 5.4 drops, and SoO fight design (and we have seen something like 11 of 14 fights) is more antagonistic to our niche than Firelands or ToT. That is going to prevent it from being a huge balance issue. However, the phases of fights where we can stack up, we will noticeably shine, as we should given their design intent for our "niche".

    Overall, I don't think we were overbuffed, in light of the fight design and how I expect the buffs will play out under that fight design. We will potentially be close to Disc/Druids/Mistweavers when we play well and manage our CDs effectively. It might be the first time Shaman will be better than below average since arguably T6.
    Perhaps. But my issue lies with the massive thoughput gap between 10's and 25's it will create. On a fight like 25H-council of elders, if in 10 man a shaman does ?100k HPS and 15% is HTT (gains 140%) while 25% is HR (gains 133%)... the increase in HPS for a shaman setting foot in the raid as a 25 man setting would be ~54% throughput.
    If a class gains 54% more output in 25 man than 10 man, while everyone else only sees a 20% jump b/c their burst CD's scale. (Obviously mechanically there are differences to, but this is just raw DR/targeting). In addition to creating a stacked niche, you create a raid size niche.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Pitkanen View Post
    Perhaps. But my issue lies with the massive thoughput gap between 10's and 25's it will create. On a fight like 25H-council of elders, if in 10 man a shaman does ?100k HPS and 15% is HTT (gains 140%) while 25% is HR (gains 133%)... the increase in HPS for a shaman setting foot in the raid as a 25 man setting would be ~54% throughput.
    If a class gains 54% more output in 25 man than 10 man, while everyone else only sees a 20% jump b/c their burst CD's scale. (Obviously mechanically there are differences to, but this is just raw DR/targeting). In addition to creating a stacked niche, you create a raid size niche.
    You have to also remember though that Healing Rain on a stacked raid is generally weaker now in 25 man than 10 man, because there is so much more passive healing and smart healing and absorbs in a 25 man that Healing Rain has much higher over heal. Even on 25H progression, my HR would often reach 85% overhealing - and 75% even on Ra-Den. You don't see that type of overheal in 10 man, with less other sources of healing to snipe it.

    HR is a larger portion of 25 man output, but that is only because it is worth using on melee, etc almost 100% of the time, whereas it is not always worth it in 10 man on spread fights. In those situations, you aren't hitting the current 6 target cap in most cases in 25 man anyway, and those situations are going to be the bulk of SoO.

    The bottom line is a huge HR buff is the only way there were going to be able to make Shaman go from the weakest to the strongest healer on stacked fights in 25 man. The only other options would involve significant nerfs to other classes, toning down of absorbs, raid CDs and offspec healing, etc - changes they are not likely to make to benefit one spec (and piss off all the other healers) or during the middle of an expansion. It was absolutely necessary if they were going to continue to insist on staying with the "stacked healing niche" class design model.

  11. #111
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Question, why do people think SLT is a shit CD? It's a 10% damage reduction for everyone in it, but more importantly, it prevents deaths. I'm not terribly familiar with this tier, but I can think of plenty of fights in every tier since it was brought back during T11 where it's a life saving CD. I realize the placement issue with it, but it still saves everyone in it.

  12. #112
    I'm just glad the resto complaining is starting to die down a bit. I understand everyone's complaints but Jesus every forum post in here has resto whining regardless of original topic it seems.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    Question, why do people think SLT is a shit CD? It's a 10% damage reduction for everyone in it, but more importantly, it prevents deaths. I'm not terribly familiar with this tier, but I can think of plenty of fights in every tier since it was brought back during T11 where it's a life saving CD. I realize the placement issue with it, but it still saves everyone in it.
    The health redistribution is only relevant if
    (1) It is able to bypass a healing debuff (i.e. Spine, Cho'gall)
    (2) There is a raid damage mechanic that does high amounts of damage to random targets rather than raid wide damage

    95% of threatening boss abilities that you cooldown are raid wide damage - that every one takes about the same amount of damage. SLT doesn't really do much for these situations - it is very visually obvious on raid frames, because you see the health being leveled off, but it does not have a lot of practical value. It absolutely does not "save everyone in it" - it just reduces damage 10% and redistributes health. People just over rate it, because it looks a lot stronger than it is.

    In almost all practical raiding purposes, you are using SLT for the 10% damage reduction. The problem is, it reduces half the damage of Devo Aura and Devo Aura doesn't require the raid to be stacked in a small circle. It is about 1/4 as good as Devo Aura, and the entire paladin community is in an uproar about how weak Devo Aura is - which should tell you something. It is also about 1/4 as good as PW: Barrier (Barrier has 2.5 times the damage reduction and a 4 second longer duration).

    SLT is just a weak inferior, non competitive raid CD outside of very situational uses. Thankfully, Blizzard also agrees and has effectively made HTT the Shaman raid CD.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    The health redistribution is only relevant if
    (1) It is able to bypass a healing debuff (i.e. Spine, Cho'gall)
    (2) There is a raid damage mechanic that does high amounts of damage to random targets rather than raid wide damage
    You seem to be ignoring the possibility that some people in your raid may happen to have lower health % than others from an aoe (i.e. Megaera rampage a tank may be at 80% while a few dps may be sitting at 20%). SLT was at least moderately useful on 25 Heroic Jin'rokh, Horridon, Council, Megaera, Durumu, Iron Qon, Twin Consorts, and Ra-Den in my experience. With SLT being particularly good on Meg/TC when people were late stacking for Rampage/Inferno.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    You have to also remember though that Healing Rain on a stacked raid is generally weaker now in 25 man than 10 man, because there is so much more passive healing and smart healing and absorbs in a 25 man that Healing Rain has much higher over heal. Even on 25H progression, my HR would often reach 85% overhealing - and 75% even on Ra-Den. You don't see that type of overheal in 10 man, with less other sources of healing to snipe it.

    HR is a larger portion of 25 man output, but that is only because it is worth using on melee, etc almost 100% of the time, whereas it is not always worth it in 10 man on spread fights. In those situations, you aren't hitting the current 6 target cap in most cases in 25 man anyway, and those situations are going to be the bulk of SoO.

    The bottom line is a huge HR buff is the only way there were going to be able to make Shaman go from the weakest to the strongest healer on stacked fights in 25 man. The only other options would involve significant nerfs to other classes, toning down of absorbs, raid CDs and offspec healing, etc - changes they are not likely to make to benefit one spec (and piss off all the other healers) or during the middle of an expansion. It was absolutely necessary if they were going to continue to insist on staying with the "stacked healing niche" class design model.
    thats fine and dandy, but the HR change does nothing for 10mans, where shaman wont become powerhouses of stacked healing with just the CH change and "free" 75 talent. I suppose the double HST is gonna help with spread healing issues somewhat to offset it, but I dont see 10man restoshaman really getting enough imo. I still think giving us CH glyph baseline instead of the ptr change would have been better solution, it wouldnt change much for 25mans as HR is going to be overshadowing everything else by miles, but it would help 10mans, where you dont have enough opportunities to CH or HR effectively, basically making shaman okay-ish spread out healer in 10man instead of stack-up powerhouse (which I have my doubts about anyway)

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Even on 25H progression, my HR would often reach 85% overhealing - and 75% even on Ra-Den. You don't see that type of overheal in 10 man, with less other sources of healing to snipe it.
    To be fair, it's only at 75% OH because we use it all throughout phase 1 to stack Ancestral Vigor. It still overheals for at least 50% in 25man no matter what you do and you have absolutely no control over it. An alternative solution would have been to make HR become a smart heal. They probably wanted to keep the flavour of the spell and there are too many smart heals around as it is, but I don't see how they can balance HR for 10 and 25man this way.

    SLT is a great utility ability. It synergizes incredibly well with smart heals, absorbs, personals and HR. It can instantly turn a situation from dangerous to perfectly stable. It's great during any kind of stacked dance phase like Vizier or Durumu where it can fix multiple fuck ups at once without having to stand still. It can even be moved after we used it. But as a pure raid CD, it's very limited due to its duration, low damage reduction and placement restrictions. I honestly don't see how that is a problem, as we'll already bring great HPS CDs with Ascendance, AG and HTT.

    I really think blizzard still needs to give us a good AoE filler spell that we can use in spread out situations that isnt HS, HW or GHW. The current Glyph of Chaining is going to be a no-go as long as it completely destroys our stacked healing. It's not really a filler spell, either, when it's on cooldown for our next 2 casts, now is it?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by -swift View Post
    To be fair, it's only at 75% OH because we use it all throughout phase 1 to stack Ancestral Vigor. It still overheals for at least 50% in 25man no matter what you do and you have absolutely no control over it. An alternative solution would have been to make HR become a smart heal. They probably wanted to keep the flavour of the spell and there are too many smart heals around as it is, but I don't see how they can balance HR for 10 and 25man this way.

    SLT is a great utility ability. It synergizes incredibly well with smart heals, absorbs, personals and HR. It can instantly turn a situation from dangerous to perfectly stable. It's great during any kind of stacked dance phase like Vizier or Durumu where it can fix multiple fuck ups at once without having to stand still. It can even be moved after we used it. But as a pure raid CD, it's very limited due to its duration, low damage reduction and placement restrictions. I honestly don't see how that is a problem, as we'll already bring great HPS CDs with Ascendance, AG and HTT.

    I really think blizzard still needs to give us a good AoE filler spell that we can use in spread out situations that isnt HS, HW or GHW. The current Glyph of Chaining is going to be a no-go as long as it completely destroys our stacked healing. It's not really a filler spell, either, when it's on cooldown for our next 2 casts, now is it?
    I don't think the 2 second Glyph of Chaining is going to be that terrible or "destroy your stacked healing" on fights with a combination of stacked and spread. Chain Heal is still going to be a lower priority than HR, ULE, RT, HST, cooldowns, etc. Yes, they should just make the jump range baseline, but I think buffed Chain Heal with the option to switch between the 2 second cooldown/long jump and the baseline jump range on a per fight basis is going to be very strong. With the buff, Chain Heal is essentially PoH (same mana cost and cast time) with smart healing instead of group based restrictions.

    Also, we use HR throughout Ra-Den P1, because there is still plenty of incidental damage going out - I would be casting it on CD in P1 with or without AV.

  18. #118
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -swift View Post
    I really think blizzard still needs to give us a good AoE filler spell that we can use in spread out situations that isnt HS, HW or GHW. The current Glyph of Chaining is going to be a no-go as long as it completely destroys our stacked healing. It's not really a filler spell, either, when it's on cooldown for our next 2 casts, now is it?
    Glyph both CH and RT? [Chain Heal>Riptide>Riptide>Chain Heal>Riptide>Riptide]

    not every healer has a spammable non-stacking AoE (Druids don't, Paladins don't) Only priests have only Prayer of Healing and it's tied to group alotment, Monks have to Glyph Uplift to spam it and can't control who where RM spreads.

  19. #119
    I really hope blizzard has more changes planned. Compared to the changes that resto Druids got at the beginning of the patch, these Shaman changes are pretty lackluster.

  20. #120
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    oh i dunno, you see some the qq in the Druid forum about the change to restoration's Wild Mushrooms

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