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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Some of the other things you have to consider with AG vs RST

    -AG requires burning a LOT of mana to use to full effect, while RS doesn't require mana consumption over and above the spell rotation you'd use with or without the talent. That extra mana used on AG means that you will likely need to run at a higher Spirit level, and also potentially means that you will have to throttle your CH usage during the fight more because of the extra mana consumption.
    -AG is at its strongest when the raid is stacked and on things like Megaera rampage. If the raid can't be stacked in a Healing Rain, AG output drops from what we see on fights like Megaera on live, and won't likely account for up to 20% of your output.

    At 10% output from HST (excluding the 2pc proc), you should gain about 13% extra output from RS. AG has the potential to be higher - especially on stacked fights, but not needs to be higher to warrant the mana dump. I don't think it's clear cut that AG > RS for 25 man; it's probably going to be very fight dependent. I think that both are very well balanced talents, and that even Conductivity on a 100% stack fight is also viable.
    To get AG's full effect, yes you have to dump mana. Before they added HR/CH I would completely agree with you. Just using Healing Rain, if you have 14 people each getting healed for 20k (unbuffed, b4 crit/mastery) 7 times in the 10 second window... you'll have 1.96M healing rain healing done which will translate into 3.5M AG healing (882k healing / 30 seconds). Which is still more than RST.

    I just can't bring myself to like conductivity. When I look at logs, I see that 60-70% overheal on HR... that doesn't bode well for Conductivity unless conductivity produces WAY more raw healing than other talents. But it doesn't. Then I look at HST and it's got 2-15% overhealing, it indicates RST's healing increase will be nearly as good as it's raw healing. AG is somewhere in the middle, if I base it on my observations with HTT... sometimes the second half of it's duration is a complete waste and other times it's fully effective.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Some of the other things you have to consider with AG vs RST

    -AG requires burning a LOT of mana to use to full effect, while RS doesn't require mana consumption over and above the spell rotation you'd use with or without the talent. That extra mana used on AG means that you will likely need to run at a higher Spirit level, and also potentially means that you will have to throttle your CH usage during the fight more because of the extra mana consumption.
    -AG is at its strongest when the raid is stacked and on things like Megaera rampage. If the raid can't be stacked in a Healing Rain, AG output drops from what we see on fights like Megaera on live, and won't likely account for up to 20% of your output.

    At 10% output from HST (excluding the 2pc proc), you should gain about 13% extra output from RS. AG has the potential to be higher - especially on stacked fights, but not needs to be higher to warrant the mana dump. I don't think it's clear cut that AG > RS for 25 man; it's probably going to be very fight dependent. I think that both are very well balanced talents, and that even Conductivity on a 100% stack fight is also viable.
    Hmm, you will safe a lot mana, if you choose AG as a talent.
    As you will try to use AG in high dps output phases, you will have to dump mana to heal all the dmg...when you are popping AG you are going to heal as before but 1.8 times as much...at the end, you have safed so much Mana!

    And raidstacking is not neccesary. you will have enough melees to be healed by HR!
    Twin Consorts 25man Phase1: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m...=0&s=155&e=340
    Last edited by Gathic; 2013-07-12 at 07:55 PM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Gathic View Post
    Hmm, you will safe a lot mana, if you choose AG as a talent.
    As you will try to use AG in high dps output phases, you will have to dump mana to heal all the dmg...when you are popping AG you are going to heal as before but 1.8 times as much...at the end, you have safed so much Mana!

    What? To get the most out of AG and to get it to give you as much output as RS is projected to, you need to spam Healing Surge while it's up (with HR down). That's very expensive, when RS doesn't cost any mana effectively (you should use HST on CD with or without it).

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    What? To get the most out of AG and to get it to give you as much output as RS is projected to, you need to spam Healing Surge while it's up (with HR down). That's very expensive, when RS doesn't cost any mana effectively (you should use HST on CD with or without it).
    My point was, that you don't need to optimize AG to make it do more healing than RST can do. In 25's you can just drop HR on 14 people and it'll happen. (overheal via CD overkill aside)
    ... in that case both RST and AG are "free". Gathic was saying that rather than spamming heals while AG is active you could simply do nothing. Saving yourself the mana that you'd spend spot healing / chain healing.

    In 5.4, with the 57% buff to chain heal, the best method you can use to maximize AG after Healing Rain is down will be chain heal spam. Not healing surge. Which makes powering AG not nearly the mana hog it was before they lifted the single target heal restriction.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Pitkanen View Post
    My point was, that you don't need to optimize AG to make it do more healing than RST can do. In 25's you can just drop HR on 14 people and it'll happen. (overheal via CD overkill aside)
    ... in that case both RST and AG are "free". Gathic was saying that rather than spamming heals while AG is active you could simply do nothing. Saving yourself the mana that you'd spend spot healing / chain healing.

    In 5.4, with the 57% buff to chain heal, the best method you can use to maximize AG after Healing Rain is down will be chain heal spam. Not healing surge. Which makes powering AG not nearly the mana hog it was before they lifted the single target heal restriction.
    Sure - you can make it theoretically do as much healing as RS in 25 mans. However, even during heavy AoE damage (Ra-Den P2 for example), Healing Rain still overheals for a boat load - 50%+. You aren't likely to get more than 30-50% of the napkin math throughput of AG as effective throughput, whereas HST has minimal overheal.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Sure - you can make it theoretically do as much healing as RS in 25 mans. However, even during heavy AoE damage (Ra-Den P2 for example), Healing Rain still overheals for a boat load - 50%+. You aren't likely to get more than 30-50% of the napkin math throughput of AG as effective throughput, whereas HST has minimal overheal.
    what is the problem with HR overheal?
    AG will copy all of the healing done

    The Point is: You do not need more of this stupid passive smartheals in 25man raids.
    the critical phases are important as shaman, as we are the top healer in this situation. let the disciples, monks and paladins do their job while you are waiting for the big moment of AG
    Last edited by Gathic; 2013-07-12 at 09:56 PM.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Sure - you can make it theoretically do as much healing as RS in 25 mans. However, even during heavy AoE damage (Ra-Den P2 for example), Healing Rain still overheals for a boat load - 50%+. You aren't likely to get more than 30-50% of the napkin math throughput of AG as effective throughput, whereas HST has minimal overheal.
    It doesn't do "as much healing", it does over double by simply casting HR(25man, 14 targets) + 3CH's during AG. And HR overheal still powers AG's smart heal. The only time AG is at risk of terrible overhealing is when the raid gets topped off. The best comparison to understand AG's overheal% would be Healing Tide Totem (or AG from current logs for those who use it).

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Pitkanen View Post
    It doesn't do "as much healing", it does over double by simply casting HR(25man, 14 targets) + 3CH's during AG. And HR overheal still powers AG's smart heal. The only time AG is at risk of terrible overhealing is when the raid gets topped off. The best comparison to understand AG's overheal% would be Healing Tide Totem (or AG from current logs for those who use it).
    AG Log :http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m...e/?s=155&e=572

  9. #149
    Looks like it's time to try AG before 5.4 ... didn't really bothered to check it before, but now looking at Gathic logs it seems very potent to say the least. RS seems really like solid choice for fights with steady and not so much burst damage, however AG helps in critical phases of fight where there is actual burst. I don't know really I still feel like it will be tough choice between those 2. In 5.4 we will be a little overwhelmed with our CDs, of course i still don't know if i will ever take 4 pc anyway(if it stays as it is), 2pc + 2pc seems like very solid choice.
    Last edited by Raihen; 2013-07-12 at 11:21 PM.

  10. #150
    The Patient
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    AG for timed stacked burst healing, RS for spread/consistent healing, conductivity never.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Raihen View Post
    Looks like it's time to try AG before 5.4 ... didn't really bothered to check it before, but now looking at Gathic logs it seems very potent to say the least.
    It's very, very potent for fights like H-Council, H-Megaera, and H-IQ. In 25s at least. I understand that a lot of shamans take HTT by default and never change it, but AG is a completely viable option vs HTT, and most likely will be vs RS (in certain situations).

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by RestoMurilo View Post
    It's very, very potent for fights like H-Council, H-Megaera, and H-IQ. In 25s at least. I understand that a lot of shamans take HTT by default and never change it, but AG is a completely viable option vs HTT, and most likely will be vs RS (in certain situations).
    Yea in theory it is potent for a lot of fights, however for some HTT is still better(H-Jinrokh storm phase and H-Tortos comes in mind, as well as Durumu HC), it all depends if you can actually stand still and cast.

  13. #153
    Field Marshal Placebo's Avatar
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    A lot of posters in this thread are neglecting the value of increasing the uptime of glyph of healing stream totem caused by RS. With the AoE pulse damage of encounters such as Ra-den and Norushen capable of hitting 250k per tick, this is essentially a 25k "absorb" on each player it effects. In terms of over-all raid damage taken in a 10 man environment, this is a fairly potent advantage to the talent.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Placebo View Post
    A lot of posters in this thread are neglecting the value of increasing the uptime of glyph of healing stream totem caused by RS. With the AoE pulse damage of encounters such as Ra-den and Norushen capable of hitting 250k per tick, this is essentially a 25k "absorb" on each player it effects. In terms of over-all raid damage taken in a 10 man environment, this is a fairly potent advantage to the talent.
    As long as it's Fire, Nature or Frost damage, it's strong. Completely useless if the fight's predominant raid damage is Shadow, Arcane or physical.

  15. #155
    Herald of the Titans Irisel's Avatar
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    HTT
    Ascendance
    SLT
    4 peice

    Why do I need another burst CD again?

    RS all the way (10 man perspective).

    Rule of Thumb: If the healer's HPS is higher than your DPS, you're doing it wrong.

  16. #156
    Field Marshal Placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    As long as it's Fire, Nature or Frost damage, it's strong. Completely useless if the fight's predominant raid damage is Shadow, Arcane or physical.
    That's a bit like saying armour is only useful on physical fights. Thanks for the input.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Placebo View Post
    That's a bit like saying armour is only useful on physical fights. Thanks for the input.
    but... it is..

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Irisel View Post
    HTT
    Ascendance
    SLT
    4 peice

    Why do I need another burst CD again?

    RS all the way (10 man perspective).
    Couldn't agree more. AG would be just another button that would get lost in the sea of existing key binds I've already got. And yeah, I'm sure that are times where it maths out to being a far better option, but the truth is I'd probably under-utilize it (as would many others) anyway so any mathematical gain would in practice be lost

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Hursey View Post
    Couldn't agree more. AG would be just another button that would get lost in the sea of existing key binds I've already got. And yeah, I'm sure that are times where it maths out to being a far better option, but the truth is I'd probably under-utilize it (as would many others) anyway so any mathematical gain would in practice be lost
    I think it's going to depend on the fight damage patterns. If the fight is anything like Heroic Lei Shen - for example - I would prefer AG all the way, because the healing required is in major bursts followed by 30 second+ periods of relatively light damage. Even a fight like Megaera would heavily favor AG. If the fight involved steady, consistent damage without a lot of burst healing moments - or less burst healing moments than you can already cover with current cooldowns, I would prefer RS. AG also loses a lot of value if you can't have a large chunk of people in Healing Rain when you use it, so the more spread the fight is, the more RS is favored.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I think it's going to depend on the fight damage patterns. If the fight is anything like Heroic Lei Shen - for example - I would prefer AG all the way, because the healing required is in major bursts followed by 30 second+ periods of relatively light damage. Even a fight like Megaera would heavily favor AG. If the fight involved steady, consistent damage without a lot of burst healing moments - or less burst healing moments than you can already cover with current cooldowns, I would prefer RS. AG also loses a lot of value if you can't have a large chunk of people in Healing Rain when you use it, so the more spread the fight is, the more RS is favored.
    Understand all that, I do. What I'm saying though is even though AG could be better HPS in some context, I'm not likely to take it. I've already got 3 CDs for healing intensive moments, I don't see any reason to try squeeze another one into my bars/key binds. Could AG produce a huge amount of HPS, sure. Would I use it to it's full potential, unlikely.

    Next question is, how useful will it even be in a real situation? My 3 CD abilities (HTT, SLT and Ascendance) + what ever the rest of the raid brings, there will be a metric ton of damage reduction and/or healing cooldowns available. Is AG even needed when you consider it from that point of view

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