Thread: Prot Nerfs

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  1. #181
    Banned rawhammer's Avatar
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    there is no mana nerf for prot

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Not as I've counted.
    Yes, you are correct for the more hitting on a target dummy rotation. What I am more worried about is with this change to GC proc, we are naturally gonna have times where we get chained proc after proc after proc, and AS costs 4.2k mana. If we spam nothing but AS we would need 14% mana back just for AS.

    12% would probably be reasonable for 'normal' rotation, but seeing as we had roughly 13-14%~ earlier, I do not see why we should nerf our mana regen, just give us what we had before.
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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    there is no mana nerf for prot
    Source please ?

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I was chatting with a friend of mine who is geared and has been running some of the tests, and she implied that 12% to 15% would be okay assuming you're not being asked to do anything really extraordinary.

    Her opinion is more valid than yours, however, as if she chose to post on these forums, she'd have an avatar.

    Sort it out.
    Yeah, after re-crunching, I feel that 10% is a bit too tight for most tastes. It SHOULD be neutral for most things, but to give a current example of where it would struggle, we can look at Heroic Council.

    Tanking Sul/Malakk, we have 1) Interrrupt on cooldown, 7k mana per 15 sec, 2) Taunt every ~30ish for FA, 3) Sac (x2 sometimes) for Frostbite(s), 4) DivProt every 30-60sec, 5) SOL if needed, 6) LH every 60sec, and 7) additional GC-AS procs from having 2 bosses on you part of the fight.

    Points 1 + 2 alone are enough to stress your mana with 10%, the rest is certainly going to push it over into the danger zone. I'm thinking 12% would be a better target. Not yet at haste cap myself (running ~17.5-18.5k depending on gearset), so 12% may still fall short later, but I did my math based on 50% values.

    And, if I got an avatar, I'd have to change my signature!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yes, you are correct for the more hitting on a target dummy rotation. What I am more worried about is with this change to GC proc, we are naturally gonna have times where we get chained proc after proc after proc, and AS costs 4.2k mana. If we spam nothing but AS we would need 14% mana back just for AS.

    12% would probably be reasonable for 'normal' rotation, but seeing as we had roughly 13-14%~ earlier, I do not see why we should nerf our mana regen, just give us what we had before.
    True, can't model chain-procs because RNG (and on live, obviously it's a different animal anyway). I'll update my posts on the blue forums to show new maths and see if we can get an update from Lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanbono View Post
    Source please ?
    Search please?
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  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    True, can't model chain-procs because RNG (and on live, obviously it's a different animal anyway). I'll update my posts on the blue forums to show new maths and see if we can get an update from Lore.
    I mean, asking for what we had before should not be to much to ask for, which was around 13.5% or somethig like that, but then consider the fact we are gonna get more GC procs that costs the most mana of our rotational abilities, 14% seem like a nice point to put it on (as I doubt they will put it to 13.5%)

    There is no reason to be conservative for them with the mana regen to be honest. Not like how much mana a prot gets back matters unless it is too little. They could put it on 20% or 25% and it would not matter much, at 20% we could cast one FoL every 4.1 seconds. OP for PvP? Oh wait, we get more damage+hps by just hitting the target.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-10 at 12:54 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

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  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Search please?
    I'm sorry but I'm actually reading every threads I can find about the SoI nerf and I couldn't find anything about this nerf not affecting prots...

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyranne View Post
    After they see hardcore guilds pulling bosses with trash they'll probably add an ICD.
    OR (GOD I HOPE THEY DON'T!) do something like they did with Warriors Revenge ability, whereby the damage decreases on 2nd and 3rd targets hit. That ability was so overpowered at the start of MoP until they made that change. It's still pretty spammable now on multi-target tanking packs.

    EDIT: but remember, Revenge is 100% proc on dodge/parry, if I'm not wrong?
    Last edited by Tekagi; 2013-07-10 at 12:58 PM.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I mean, asking for what we had before should not be to much to ask for, which was around 13.5% or somethig like that, but then consider the fact we are gonna get more GC procs that costs the most mana of our rotational abilities, 14% seem like a nice point to put it on (as I doubt they will put it to 13.5%)

    There is no reason to be conservative for them with the mana regen to be honest. Not like how much mana a prot gets back matters unless it is too little. They could put it on 20% or 25% and it would not matter much, at 20% we could cast one FoL every 4.1 seconds. OP for PvP? Oh wait, we get more damage+hps by just hitting the target.
    By my calculations (included below) we had between 12% and 15.5% in 5.3. That said, I don't think we needed all of it either. Nairobi's calculation looks about correct to me for the base rotation, but it should be an over-estimate because Sacred Shield and L90 talents cost no mana and take the place of an expensive filler. So even at 50% haste, I'd guess that 9%-10% should be sufficient.

    The concern about chain Grand Crusader procs is probably valid though, since they'll be more bursty now that they proc off of avoidance only. I can imagine back-to-back-to-back GC procs causing us to dip in mana enough to cause problems. They could probably drop AS's mana cost slightly to compensate for that.

    CS every 4.5 seconds
    J every 6.75 seconds (from CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X)
    SotR every 3 holy power
    melee every 2.6 seconds, divided by 1.1 for the melee attack speed buff.

    Rate of proc triggers is then (1/4.5+1/6.75)+(1/4.5+1/6.75)/3 + 1.1/2.6 = 0.9169 per second

    SoI is a 20 PPM effect, so the proc rate is 20*2.6/30=0.8667. Thus we expect about 0.7947 procs per second. If each proc is 4% of base mana that works out to 3.1786% of base mana per second.

    However, Guarded by the Light returns mana every 2 seconds, so we have to double that for a fair comparison. SoI should be returning about 6.38% mana every 2 seconds even at 0% haste.

    Since I've ignored Grand Crusader procs here, the entire value scales with haste. At 40% haste, we'd have to multiply by 1.4 to get ~8.9% mana every 2 seconds. At 50% haste (the highest value we need realistically consider), it's up to 9.6% mana every 2 seconds. So in 5.3, Seal of Insight and GbtL combine to give us as much as ~15% mana every 2 seconds.

  9. #189
    Yeah, dropping AS's mana cost could solve that problem. If AS had around 3k mana cost, then 10% could possibly be enough, especially if there are not so much dispelling going on in 5.4. Maybe 11-12% for safety.

    But as I mentioned in my earlier post, there is really no reason for them to be conservative. If prot paladins get more mana regen then they need, it will not really matter, but it we do not get enough, it will be a huge deal.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #190
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    But as I mentioned in my earlier post, there is really no reason for them to be conservative. If prot paladins get more mana regen then they need, it will not really matter, but it we do not get enough, it will be a huge deal.
    IIRC the only thing really meant to be limited by Mana is Flash of Light outside of tanking, basically for PvP. Given that Prot Flash of Light hits for next to nothing (even with vengeance) and that Prot is absolutely neutered in PvP anyway, I'm not so sure that's a concern at all.

    Rebuke also honestly could just do without the mana cost, I wonder why we are the only class with a resource cost on an interrupt at all even.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by jeanbono View Post
    I'm sorry but I'm actually reading every threads I can find about the SoI nerf and I couldn't find anything about this nerf not affecting prots...
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9423553519 read the blue posts in there, as well as posts from us. It's stated that it was an unintended nerf to Prot, designed for Holy. Will be remedied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, dropping AS's mana cost could solve that problem. If AS had around 3k mana cost, then 10% could possibly be enough, especially if there are not so much dispelling going on in 5.4. Maybe 11-12% for safety.

    But as I mentioned in my earlier post, there is really no reason for them to be conservative. If prot paladins get more mana regen then they need, it will not really matter, but it we do not get enough, it will be a huge deal.
    Agreed; casting an extra FOL every 15-20 seconds won't mean anything gamebreaking (I can now do 1 extra heal on HC LS platforms, woo!), but making a tank have to slow down rotation to pool a secondary resource for primary abilities/utility is insane.

    So much unneccesary tweaking/tuning created because they want to nerf Holy. /sigh

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    IIRC the only thing really meant to be limited by Mana is Flash of Light outside of tanking, basically for PvP. Given that Prot Flash of Light hits for next to nothing (even with vengeance) and that Prot is absolutely neutered in PvP anyway, I'm not so sure that's a concern at all.
    Exactly.

    Rebuke also honestly could just do without the mana cost, I wonder why we are the only class with a resource cost on an interrupt at all even.
    And it's quite a severe cost too! 7020 mana wtf.

    IIRC, shamans have mana cost for shear as well, but I think it's largely because the healer spec of the class has access to the interrupt, and it's a goal for "PVP balance" to not give them free interrupts. GG PVP again.
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  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    IIRC the only thing really meant to be limited by Mana is Flash of Light outside of tanking, basically for PvP. Given that Prot Flash of Light hits for next to nothing (even with vengeance) and that Prot is absolutely neutered in PvP anyway, I'm not so sure that's a concern at all
    Agreed.

    Also considering how high mana cost it is on flash of light. If we got 10%, 20% or 30% would not really matter much for FoL casting. We would need about 80% to be able to chain cast FoL.

    Though to be honest, a prot paladin chain casting FoL in PvP could be deadly by causing the other team to die of laughter.

    I just do not feel that PvP is a valid concern here when we are talking so low numbers mana regen. Neither our damage or healing output is strong in PvP, not like we are a huge killing machine that can switch to the healing godess of light just by clicking one button.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #193
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    And it's quite a severe cost too! 7020 mana wtf.

    IIRC, shamans have mana cost for shear as well, but I think it's largely because the healer spec of the class has access to the interrupt, and it's a goal for "PVP balance" to not give them free interrupts. GG PVP again.
    Well that, and it's a ranged interrupt, even for Enhance. Mistweavers have 0 mana cost on Spear Hand Strike GG Blizz 'least you thought of the monks.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Rebuke also honestly could just do without the mana cost, I wonder why we are the only class with a resource cost on an interrupt at all even.
    Because of Holy Spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Well that, and it's a ranged interrupt, even for Enhance. Mistweavers have 0 mana cost on Spear Hand Strike GG Blizz 'least you thought of the monks.
    Monks are new DKs, and we all know the state of DKs in Wrath.
    Lethora, 100 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 100 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    By my calculations (included below) we had between 12% and 15.5% in 5.3. That said, I don't think we needed all of it either. Nairobi's calculation looks about correct to me for the base rotation, but it should be an over-estimate because Sacred Shield and L90 talents cost no mana and take the place of an expensive filler. So even at 50% haste, I'd guess that 9%-10% should be sufficient.
    SS (and it's godawful long GCD) I tried to account for by rounding up my 3.0 sec rotational "rounds" into 3.5 sec, to give an extra 0.5 sec per "CS,J,X" round, which should have been overshooting it really. But, I agree that we don't need to be mana-positive, just neutral. Still, it seems that 10% is low once you factor in the odd Rebuke, taunt, cleanse, hand spell.

    Also, unless I'm mistaken, HPrism does cost mana (~2400 IIRC). Anyone confirm?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Well that, and it's a ranged interrupt, even for Enhance. Mistweavers have 0 mana cost on Spear Hand Strike GG Blizz 'least you thought of the monks.
    Right that's what I was meaning (about the Shaman example, anyway).

    And I'm sure they'll say something like "Derrr, we couldn't figure out how to properly code SHS because of monk stances" or "It's free because we want to boost monk representation!" or "LOL Y U worried about SHS when there's Ring of Piss bro?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
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  16. #196
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    I want haste nerfed for prot so they will use tank gear instead of DPS gear. I'm so tired of prot paladins ninjaing my loots because "omg dat haezt". Some guilds even have a policy where tanks are geared first and you know what that means for ret paladins if there is a prot tank.
    Last edited by Weightlifter; 2013-07-10 at 02:12 PM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Also, unless I'm mistaken, HPrism does cost mana (~2400 IIRC). Anyone confirm?
    It does have a mana cost, think it is 3.2k but not sure, could be 2400
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    I wan't haste nerfed for prot so they will use tank gear instead of DPS gear like. I'm so tired of prot paladins ninjaing my loots because "omg dat haezt". Some guilds even have a policy where tanks are geared first and you know what that means for ret paladins if there is a prot tank.
    Lol? Can't tell if you're for real or not. Really hoping you're just trying to be funny, else you better bring a whole lot more than "WAAAH MAH LEWTS!!" to the discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Lol? Can't tell if you're for real or not. Really hoping you're just trying to be funny, else you better bring a whole lot more than "WAAAH MAH LEWTS!!" to the discussion.
    Yeah so fun seeing rets and dks complaining that prots take 'their' loot.

    Everyone know that all haste loot is mine
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #200
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Lol? Can't tell if you're for real or not. Really hoping you're just trying to be funny, else you better bring a whole lot more than "WAAAH MAH LEWTS!!" to the discussion.
    Prot using ret gear isn't intended. If it was, they wouldn't have to set loot spec to ret when they do LFR, and their tier sets would contain haste. It's not different from enhance shamans using spellpower weapons.

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