Yeah, after re-crunching, I feel that 10% is a bit too tight for most tastes. It SHOULD be neutral for most things, but to give a current example of where it would struggle, we can look at Heroic Council.
Tanking Sul/Malakk, we have 1) Interrrupt on cooldown, 7k mana per 15 sec, 2) Taunt every ~30ish for FA, 3) Sac (x2 sometimes) for Frostbite(s), 4) DivProt every 30-60sec, 5) SOL if needed, 6) LH every 60sec, and 7) additional GC-AS procs from having 2 bosses on you part of the fight.
Points 1 + 2 alone are enough to stress your mana with 10%, the rest is certainly going to push it over into the danger zone. I'm thinking 12% would be a better target. Not yet at haste cap myself (running ~17.5-18.5k depending on gearset), so 12% may still fall short later, but I did my math based on 50% values.
And, if I got an avatar, I'd have to change my signature!
- - - Updated - - -
True, can't model chain-procs because RNG (and on live, obviously it's a different animal anyway). I'll update my posts on the blue forums to show new maths and see if we can get an update from Lore.
Search please?
I mean, asking for what we had before should not be to much to ask for, which was around 13.5% or somethig like that, but then consider the fact we are gonna get more GC procs that costs the most mana of our rotational abilities, 14% seem like a nice point to put it on (as I doubt they will put it to 13.5%)
There is no reason to be conservative for them with the mana regen to be honest. Not like how much mana a prot gets back matters unless it is too little. They could put it on 20% or 25% and it would not matter much, at 20% we could cast one FoL every 4.1 seconds. OP for PvP? Oh wait, we get more damage+hps by just hitting the target.
Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-07-10 at 12:54 PM.
OR (GOD I HOPE THEY DON'T!) do something like they did with Warriors Revenge ability, whereby the damage decreases on 2nd and 3rd targets hit. That ability was so overpowered at the start of MoP until they made that change. It's still pretty spammable now on multi-target tanking packs.
EDIT: but remember, Revenge is 100% proc on dodge/parry, if I'm not wrong?
Last edited by mmocf2f2bdae9e; 2013-07-10 at 12:58 PM.
By my calculations (included below) we had between 12% and 15.5% in 5.3. That said, I don't think we needed all of it either. Nairobi's calculation looks about correct to me for the base rotation, but it should be an over-estimate because Sacred Shield and L90 talents cost no mana and take the place of an expensive filler. So even at 50% haste, I'd guess that 9%-10% should be sufficient.
The concern about chain Grand Crusader procs is probably valid though, since they'll be more bursty now that they proc off of avoidance only. I can imagine back-to-back-to-back GC procs causing us to dip in mana enough to cause problems. They could probably drop AS's mana cost slightly to compensate for that.
CS every 4.5 seconds
J every 6.75 seconds (from CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X)
SotR every 3 holy power
melee every 2.6 seconds, divided by 1.1 for the melee attack speed buff.
Rate of proc triggers is then (1/4.5+1/6.75)+(1/4.5+1/6.75)/3 + 1.1/2.6 = 0.9169 per second
SoI is a 20 PPM effect, so the proc rate is 20*2.6/30=0.8667. Thus we expect about 0.7947 procs per second. If each proc is 4% of base mana that works out to 3.1786% of base mana per second.
However, Guarded by the Light returns mana every 2 seconds, so we have to double that for a fair comparison. SoI should be returning about 6.38% mana every 2 seconds even at 0% haste.
Since I've ignored Grand Crusader procs here, the entire value scales with haste. At 40% haste, we'd have to multiply by 1.4 to get ~8.9% mana every 2 seconds. At 50% haste (the highest value we need realistically consider), it's up to 9.6% mana every 2 seconds. So in 5.3, Seal of Insight and GbtL combine to give us as much as ~15% mana every 2 seconds.
Yeah, dropping AS's mana cost could solve that problem. If AS had around 3k mana cost, then 10% could possibly be enough, especially if there are not so much dispelling going on in 5.4. Maybe 11-12% for safety.
But as I mentioned in my earlier post, there is really no reason for them to be conservative. If prot paladins get more mana regen then they need, it will not really matter, but it we do not get enough, it will be a huge deal.
IIRC the only thing really meant to be limited by Mana is Flash of Light outside of tanking, basically for PvP. Given that Prot Flash of Light hits for next to nothing (even with vengeance) and that Prot is absolutely neutered in PvP anyway, I'm not so sure that's a concern at all.
Rebuke also honestly could just do without the mana cost, I wonder why we are the only class with a resource cost on an interrupt at all even.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9423553519 read the blue posts in there, as well as posts from us. It's stated that it was an unintended nerf to Prot, designed for Holy. Will be remedied.
Agreed; casting an extra FOL every 15-20 seconds won't mean anything gamebreaking (I can now do 1 extra heal on HC LS platforms, woo!), but making a tank have to slow down rotation to pool a secondary resource for primary abilities/utility is insane.
So much unneccesary tweaking/tuning created because they want to nerf Holy. /sigh
- - - Updated - - -
Exactly.
And it's quite a severe cost too! 7020 mana wtf.Rebuke also honestly could just do without the mana cost, I wonder why we are the only class with a resource cost on an interrupt at all even.
IIRC, shamans have mana cost for shear as well, but I think it's largely because the healer spec of the class has access to the interrupt, and it's a goal for "PVP balance" to not give them free interrupts. GG PVP again.
Agreed.
Also considering how high mana cost it is on flash of light. If we got 10%, 20% or 30% would not really matter much for FoL casting. We would need about 80% to be able to chain cast FoL.
Though to be honest, a prot paladin chain casting FoL in PvP could be deadly by causing the other team to die of laughter.
I just do not feel that PvP is a valid concern here when we are talking so low numbers mana regen. Neither our damage or healing output is strong in PvP, not like we are a huge killing machine that can switch to the healing godess of light just by clicking one button.
SS (and it's godawful long GCD) I tried to account for by rounding up my 3.0 sec rotational "rounds" into 3.5 sec, to give an extra 0.5 sec per "CS,J,X" round, which should have been overshooting it really. But, I agree that we don't need to be mana-positive, just neutral. Still, it seems that 10% is low once you factor in the odd Rebuke, taunt, cleanse, hand spell.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, HPrism does cost mana (~2400 IIRC). Anyone confirm?
Right that's what I was meaning (about the Shaman example, anyway).
And I'm sure they'll say something like "Derrr, we couldn't figure out how to properly code SHS because of monk stances" or "It's free because we want to boost monk representation!" or "LOL Y U worried about SHS when there's Ring of Piss bro?"
I want haste nerfed for prot so they will use tank gear instead of DPS gear. I'm so tired of prot paladins ninjaing my loots because "omg dat haezt". Some guilds even have a policy where tanks are geared first and you know what that means for ret paladins if there is a prot tank.
Last edited by Weightlifter; 2013-07-10 at 02:12 PM.
Blizzard has stated several times that they like how protection paladins are in current state and want it to be a rolemodel for the other plate tanks for future expansions.
If haste was not intended to be used by protection paladins they would have nerfed it by now, which they have not at all.