Thread: Prot Nerfs

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  1. #41
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    There is even crit on one of the legendary tanking cloaks, istn't there?
    So how can anyone say tanks aren't intended to use classic dps stats now?
    That’s a big topic.

    The problem is that some tanks get nothing from more traditional DPS statistics, while others do; it’s no coincidence that the tanks with the highest DPS (paladins and monks) are the ones that scale defensively with things like haste or critical strike. All the while, warrior damage is abysmally poor in comparison because we get absolutely nothing from haste, and not a lot from critical strike either. Death knights suffer similar issues, but they at least get decent returns on weapon damage.

    In fact, if you wish to discuss lazy design, warriors are in the same position as paladins were in Cataclysm; forced into reforging out of mastery at the Critical Block cap, just to reforge into avoidance. Yay.

    Anyway, I digress.

    Paladins, for an existing tank class, got the gold in the active mitigation redesign. There’s no argument to be had here. This is mainly due to Sanctity of Battle which not only increases DPS, but directly increases their mitigation via Holy Power generation (among other things). This isn’t news to anyone, but it’s worth being clear so that parallels can be drawn.

    Now, take Riposte (new passive talent for warriors and DK’s).

    This is a buff to avoidance rather than using a DPS secondary for mitigation, purely because it translates a traditional tanking secondary into more damage. Paladins, monks and druids do the opposite – they get a DPS secondary translating into more mitigation which, to me, is far more compelling and the direction I’m assuming the whole tanking community will go in 6.0. I’d like to think it’s for sure that warriors can’t be the laughing stock of the tanking fraternity for yet another expansion, and this seems like the way to go.

    In short, avoidance is going to be removed from gear as alluded to by a Ghostcrawler tweet and all tanks will scale defensively from offensive secondary statistics such as haste or critical strike. These final patch changes are essentially heralding in some of the things we can expect to see come 6.0.

    Also, I do find the comment about “avoidance is still okay with regards to TDR, so it can’t really be buffed”. I think that’s probably right, but not necessarily in the way you mean; how do you buff avoidance? It means you reduce the damage of an attack to zero, so there’s no viable way to buff it other than making it easier to stack. Secondly, it’s not total damage that kills tanks – spikes kill tanks. The mana sponge argument died in WotLK and it’s not coming back, so no tanks are going to increase their chances of taking a spike which is why avoidance is never likely to be favoured. The developers know this. Warriors and paladins could maybe get away with avoidance gearing given that Sacred Shield and Shield Barrier work in tandem, but it’s not worth the trade off to most.

    The potentially bigger change is the one that threatens the paladin mana pool but, luckily, that change won’t go live. It can’t. When building a rotation, classes are either cooldown-restricted or resource-restricted; it can’t be both, because that’s doubly punitive, and would make paladins the worst tank in the game with a single change. No, those changes are aimed at Holy (though I can’t tell why, Holy needs buffed IMHO) and Protection will be buffed elsewhere to accommodate.

    TL, DR?

    Don’t worry. Protection paladins will be fine. You’ll still be very good tanks, even if you spend a patch not being the best of the five. I know that must feel like something’s broken, but other tanks have to live with it, I’m afraid. So should you.

  2. #42
    Actually after a little consideration I'm kind of intrigued by the change to BH. If it can heal the paladin tank then the heal has a choice. It can hit the tank if hes the lowest at the time or choose a raid member.

    It will be interesting to see if this moves healing away from overhealing to effective healing. If it does then its actually a positive change in my eyes. It means you have an instant reacting smartheal that can do meaningful heals to an injured raidmember. Currently tanks get plenty of healing (overhealing) through beacons / HoT's rolling and so on.


    On the SoI, theres 2 choices as I see it with the information currently at hand
    1) They will revert the change or give paladins another way to gain manner
    2) It's a deliberate attempt to gut haste builds by making them go OOM. This will mean that we will have to theorycraft a haste breakpoint and then go avoidance.

    I hope this isn't the case. Blizzard stumbled onto haste as active mitigation by dumb luck rather than design. It turned out fun as hell and if they gut it deliberately I'll be a bit disappointed.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    How can something that targets the lowest HP character overheal? Except insofar as it overhealed already.
    Just because you heal them does not mean someone else does not overheal them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    You don't like that dodge and parry were devalued, and then complain that they re-value them?
    They are revalueing them in the wrong way. Basically, dodge and parry in WotLK was a pile of manure weaved into a chocolate cake (stamina) while you were stuck on a deserted island with no other options. In Cata, it was still a pile of manure, however being stuck on the deserted island you decided to build yourself a farm so you could make your own food, tired of that manure chocolate cake, and you could atleast use all the manure blizzard gave you as fertilizers. Not to best, but it served its purpose.

    In MoP, blizzard decided that you should not be able to use that manure as fertilizer so they decided to genetically mutate that pile of manure with every disease known to man, they even discovered 2 more diseases just to make it more spicy aswell as adding a few of Hulk Hogans armpit hairs into it.
    They then also saved you from that deserted island by adding multiple gearing choices, bringing you home to civilization, and then they are suprised that you prefer eating at burger king over that genetically altered manure pile. What this change is doing is saying "Hey! Take a bite of this manure and you get a free discount at Wal-Mart!".

    That is just the wrong way going around stuff. They should realise that the general design of avoidance stats is bad, it has never been good. It was just our only option before, which is also a bad design. We should not want a stat because it is the only thing available for us, we should want something because it is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    You're a tank, you're supposed to like tank stats. If not you should be playing DPS.

    If the rotation is so shit without a full haste build then the rotation needs to be redesigned. Tanks ignoring tank stats and stacking a DPS stat is silly. It's okay if haste is useful, but when it's optimal that's just dumb.
    What is a 'tank' stat? I mean, dodge and parry are so incredibly bad, do they deserve to be called tank stats because they were forced upon us for so long? We never desired them really.

    The fact is that haste for protection paladins have in my opinion been the best designed tank stat since WoW released, and by that I mean the most interesting interaction with your character. It makes gearing up fun, its benefits are smooth and not random and rewarding you for playing good. So call me silly but I say tanks wanting DPS stats is extremely right, I would not like to go back to a 0 skill 0 enjoyment way of WotLK tank gearing, or the ehrmahgehrd ctc cap way of Cata. Remember in Cata that I was looking for agility on all my non-plate gear since it provided far better CTC coverage than strength, now that is something that is wrong.

    The design of dodge and parry has just always been wrong, we have finally been given something good, fun and useful. Now blizzard has to try to make bandaid fix after bandaid fix to avoidance just to try to keep it in the game. This should not be needed and should show how badly avoidance has been designed since the get go. Seeing how tanks avoid it like the plague, it is hillarious to think that we have been using it for so long just because it was our best option.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-09 at 10:40 AM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Don’t worry. Protection paladins will be fine. You’ll still be very good tanks, even if you spend a patch not being the best of the five. I know that must feel like something’s broken, but other tanks have to live with it, I’m afraid. So should you.
    I don't care about being the best tank, I have long said that paladins have been too good since the start of this expansion and pointed out ways they should have been nerfed. This has much more to do with the fact that they've been telling us they like where Paladins are and how they worked with active mitigation (and they hit the mark for it with paladins IMO, by far the best active mitigation in the game in terms of gameplay) but these changes are showing us the opposite of that. Until they tell us our mana will be buffed in some other way the SOI nerf is a direct nerf to haste gearing. The change to GC (while not a HUGE deal I don't think) is again a nerf to haste gearing. I understand Paladins are strong tanks, but they have been this entire expansion. There are absolutely areas that should be nerfed, but what this is doing is driving players away from the haste playstyle, something that the playerbase fought hard for in 5.2. This is driving players away from the active mitigation model that is basically everything they said they wanted active mitigation to be.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Don’t worry. Protection paladins will be fine. You’ll still be very good tanks, even if you spend a patch not being the best of the five. I know that must feel like something’s broken, but other tanks have to live with it, I’m afraid. So should you.
    These changes does not really change anything in prot paladin throughput other than promoting bad gearing and promoting you to take dps glyphs over healing glyphs which is gonna put us even further ahead of warriors in dps.

    I do not think anyone is whining that we got nerfed to the ground, it is just that these changes makes no sense, and feel very awkward. I would be fine with a flat number tunings on our dps/hps throughput, but messing around with our basic mechanics is not needed. We work fine the way we work, and by that I mean HOW we work, not our throughput. If they wanted to lower our dps, hps etc that would be fine, but doing it by completely altering our basic mechanics is wrong. A simple number tuning would suffice. Still, I do not believe the goal is to nerf protadin/monks, it is to bring dks and warriors up.

    The change to GC is the opposite, it is borderline broken and is gonna be insane on any fight with multiple adds. You are gonna see paladins completely wrecking havoc whenever there is multiple mobs, paladins are simply gonna out do the shit of all other tanks on multitarget, gonna be 100% sotr uptime when you have multiple mobs. This is what I am afraid of, since paladins are going to become even stonger tanks when you have more mobs, and then the community is gonna start crying about nerfs and they are gonna change something completely different than the core problem.

    The fact is when GC procced from CS/HotR it had a cap, it could only proc as often as you could use CS/HotR. From avoidance it has no cap, which is why it is completely broken. I think any paladin that has been soloing old content has been pulling a ton of mobs to get 100% gc proc coverage only to spam AS the entire fights for insane SotR uptime and dps. Now we are gonna be able to do that with 60% less mobs on us, which means the broken strats we have been using for soloing old content will become viable in current content.

    We have not been the best out of the five at any point in MoP. Monks always held that spot. The fact that we lose our free passive healing and monks keeps theirs is funny.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-09 at 11:19 AM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #46
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    You know... I don't mind the Battle Healer change. I've often felt in some situations if a different glyph would be better situationally but stuck with BH because of its OP-ness. I'm not a big fan of the "Everyone uses this" talent because well, everyone uses it.

    The GC change though... yuck. I don't get why they won't embrace the fact that avoidance is shit and remove it completely and change it so the other tanks behave like we do, rather then basically tell us "You're doing it wrong, you want avoidance gear!" and then try to do anything and everything to force it down our throats. I'm hoping it doesn't affect us too much because it seems the ultimate goal is to force us back into using "tank" gear instead of +Haste gear.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The change to GC is the opposite, it is borderline broken and is gonna be insane on any fight with multiple adds. You are gonna see paladins completely wrecking havoc whenever there is multiple mobs, paladins are simply gonna out do the shit of all other tanks on multitarget, gonna be 100% sotr uptime when you have multiple mobs. This is what I am afraid of, since paladins are going to become even stonger tanks when you have more mobs, and then the community is gonna start crying about nerfs and they are gonna change something completely different than the core problem.
    I can't wait for this on H LK. Not sure if I'll even have to bind anything other than AS and SoTR haha

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I'm hoping it doesn't affect us too much because it seems the ultimate goal is to force us back into using "tank" gear instead of +Haste gear.
    Nah it wont really do anything except make us want some avoidance for multitarget fights for 100% SotR uptime and completely broken dps.

    I hope there are fights like megaera this tier where you can pull trash to the boss easily. If this change was live in 5.2 I would just pull 4-5 shale spiders and sit on 150k more vengeance and 100% SotR uptime probably yielding an additional 150-200k dps atleast on megaera. Kinda funny how this change actually encourages such behaviours.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    You know... I don't mind the Battle Healer change. I've often felt in some situations if a different glyph would be better situationally but stuck with BH because of its OP-ness. I'm not a big fan of the "Everyone uses this" talent because well, everyone uses it.

    The GC change though... yuck. I don't get why they won't embrace the fact that avoidance is shit and remove it completely and change it so the other tanks behave like we do, rather then basically tell us "You're doing it wrong, you want avoidance gear!" and then try to do anything and everything to force it down our throats. I'm hoping it doesn't affect us too much because it seems the ultimate goal is to force us back into using "tank" gear instead of +Haste gear.
    I will guarantee right now if we don't see dodge/parry removed next expac, they will be completely overhauled (which would be dumb IMO) and not even be close to what they are now.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    I can't wait for this on H LK. Not sure if I'll even have to bind anything other than AS and SoTR haha
    Yeah, I have been doing this on pretty much most of the old raids, found a way to pull so much trash I can spam only AS and SotR, that is going to be even easier now. Like, when doing BQL 25HC, I had an army of 100+ mobs from the plague quarter (the zombies from precious do not despawn when he dies) aswell as pretty much every mob from before and after princes so I could spam only AS + SotR entire fight.

    Same goes with naxx25 etc, you just run around with trash from the entire instance behind you, never killing trash, I even had FPS drops on Maexxna because I had the entire instance after me haha.

    We are gonna become even strong in soloing old content now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    I will guarantee right now if we don't see dodge/parry removed next expac, they will be completely overhauled (which would be dumb IMO) and not even be close to what they are now.
    One thought I was playing around with in 5.0 on ways to make dodge and parry actually attractive again, was moving them away from complete avoidance.

    Something like each time you proc a dodge/parry you get a buff, say, when you dodge, you reduce the damage taken by 60% of the next 2 dodgeable attacks, and when you parry you reduce the damage taken by 60-45-30% on the next 3 attacks, of course within a few seconds. A change similar to that is the only way I could see dodge/parry becoming useful for being dodge/parry. Since GC procs from dodge/parry just feels like a bandaid, we dont want dodge/parry for the avoidance we want it for the GC procs.

    Doing something like making dodge/parry reduce the CD of our spells (like current haste) would still feel bad, since it would only feel like a bandaid fix still.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #51
    Some people should calm down. I think there were some misleading statements here about the returned mana from SoI. Some people managed to go oom while this will not be the case under normal conditions. Guarded by the Light makes sure this won't happen and has to concern us in any way. And no, it does not happen if anybody turns off SoI and nuke a dummy. I did it myself on live an hour ago under mentioned conditions at a dummy and I merely dropped to 80% mana or even lower! Make a video out of it or prove your point in a similar way, else I won't believe any of those stories and assume you're just making it up.

    To be clear: I don't understand this change, I most certainly don't want it go live. It messes with a mechanic which was never a concern in a raid environment but sure is useful for holy outside of raids and still includes a certain knowledge of your class's mechanics to "master" your toolbox.

    For the other changes: it's still ridiculous how blizz state they like the modern active tanking style but clearly put us back in the stone ages of tanking stat wise (I recommend the blog "rant" by Theck on this matter). To decide whether self healing or raid healing via a glyph is more useful sure is a legit decision, but I'm sure as well how that will end up (--> nearly no one will pick this glyph).

  12. #52
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Actually looking at my current stats I'm not worried about the GC change anymore. I don't think it will make us PREFER dodge/parry gear at all. I'm at like 8.6% dodge and like 18.8% parry. It might make us add a bit more value to Dodge/Parry upgrades than we do now (as in right now I only want one if it's a big upgrade, not a minor one), and since a lot of rings/belts seem to have Dodge or Parry on it, those become more attractive as do the dodge/parry tier pieces, but I think my gearing strategy would stay the same.

    Still a bad change, but I don't think it's AS bad.

    With Battle Healer I could see it being chosen on fights with high raid damage but light tank damage (not that I can think of any such fight right now). I'm all for THAT being a viable choice, because right now it's like Sacred Shield: EVERYONE takes it. It might as well not be a choice at all.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-07-09 at 11:48 AM.
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  13. #53
    The Lightbringer Valarius's Avatar
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    The mana change I am worried about. I already go oom after switching to another seal for a bit of extra damage when there's no healing required..

    Are they going to turn around and tell us we aren't supposed to be hitting all our buttons on cooldown now and must sit around waiting for mana? It's only going to get WORSE with more haste...

    I'm curious about the BH Change - will it still do a % of our damage heal or will people get the full whack that the paladin would have had? Could actually turn out *better* if it's a larger smart heal on every attack that procs it no?
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-07-09 at 12:04 PM.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    You're a tank, you're supposed to like tank stats. If not you should be playing DPS.

    If the rotation is so shit without a full haste build then the rotation needs to be redesigned. Tanks ignoring tank stats and stacking a DPS stat is silly. It's okay if haste is useful, but when it's optimal that's just dumb.
    Monks and Guardian Druids stack Crit. They don't go for tank stats. They aren't DPS, they should go for tank stats!!!

    That is what you sound like.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Homsel View Post
    Some people should calm down. I think there were some misleading statements here about the returned mana from SoI. Some people managed to go oom while this will not be the case under normal conditions. Guarded by the Light makes sure this won't happen and has to concern us in any way. And no, it does not happen if anybody turns off SoI and nuke a dummy. I did it myself on live an hour ago under mentioned conditions at a dummy and I merely dropped to 80% mana or even lower!.
    I just tested live, took me 2 minutes and 30 seconds to go oom, that is without using Divine Protection that also cost mana.
    No taunt, cleanse, bop, salv, sacrifice, holy prism, speed of light, buffs etc, all of which also cost mana.
    Using sanctified wrath, throwing in 1 divine protection, 1 speed of light and 2 taunts, it took me 1 minute 15 seconds to go oom.

    If I have to cleanse something or spam taunt even more I would be oom after 40 seconds.
    If you are not going oom then your GCD usage is really really low.

    Edit: Throwing in 2 cleanses and I oomed after 30 seconds.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-09 at 12:14 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    If you are not going oom then your GCD usage is really really low.

    Edit: Throwing in 2 cleanses and I oomed after 30 seconds.
    I'm pretty certain some of the people posting here under the guise of "I AM A PALADIN RLY DUDE! xP" are billy bullshitters who are rubbing their hands with glee at a potential nerf to their co-tanks. That or they are actually just fucking awful players.
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  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Anybody thought about blizzard wanting us to drop Haste?

    Maybe thats some sort of "we dont wanna retune the haste scaling this late in the expansion, so lets give em a reason not to stack haste".

    I mean, less haste means less mana spend so could go into this direction

    Buff to Avoidance to compensate our lost damage abit on single target fights


    How much haste would you need to reduce in order to not go oom?


    But then again, Blizzard is prolly just throwing around some stuff to see how it fits. Like when they gave us baseline Sacred (Holy) Shield + talented Eternal Flame and every Holy Paladin cried like a baby for nerfing their class to the ground.

    I will begin to worry when there is a release candidate on the PTR :-)
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    How much haste would you need to reduce in order to not go oom?
    About negative 100% haste give or take depending on how many interrupts, taunts and cleanses you use.

    Even at 0% haste you would oom fairly quick.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Tanks ignoring tank stats and stacking a DPS stat is silly. It's okay if haste is useful, but when it's optimal that's just dumb.
    You are just stuck in the past, currently only prot warriors care about dodge/parry and even that is because other(haste/crit) stats are even worse. How about start adapting?

  20. #60
    Am I missing something? I thought Glyph of the Battle Healer always healed raid members instead of the paladin themselves? Currently, the live version only heals raid members and not the paladin, so i don't know what the change is.

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