Thread: Prot Nerfs

Page 8 of 14 FirstFirst ...
6
7
8
9
10
... LastLast
  1. #141
    The SoI change still leaves me baffled but the BH one may have potential.

    Tanks receive a lot of overhealing through beacons and HoT's. Wipes (in 10 man) generally don't happen because a tank dies. They happen because someone in the raid other than the tank dies. If BH takes care of low people in the raid with smart heals then the overhealing on the tanks would diminish because the healing is going to the raid rather than the tank.

    Of course this is
    a) Speculation
    b) Situational

    but I see the potential for this change to be pretty awesome.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    The SoI change still leaves me baffled but the BH one may have potential.

    Tanks receive a lot of overhealing through beacons and HoT's. Wipes (in 10 man) generally don't happen because a tank dies. They happen because someone in the raid other than the tank dies. If BH takes care of low people in the raid with smart heals then the overhealing on the tanks would diminish because the healing is going to the raid rather than the tank.

    Of course this is
    a) Speculation
    b) Situational

    but I see the potential for this change to be pretty awesome.
    Basically this, i can feel this being very good on some fights and so so on others.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    As far as I can tell, you only start running OOM as prot if you're somewhere above 40% haste. Probably the devs never thought to check that edge case when making this change, as I think you're spot-on about it being a Holy nerf. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they compensated us in the mana regen department elsewhere, as it doesn't seem like this was targeted at us.
    Does this mean we can count on a post of some sort on SD.net to help raise awareness? Many of us have expressed concerns already on the PTR forums, but there's a lot of noise for them to wade through on there. I'm concerned that even if this IS a genuine "oops" on their part, the solution may not be a quick fix and we may hear "well it only affects the very outliers of paladins, so we CBA to fix this right away". Just a simple tweak to GbtL passive returns, or a spec-specific seal adjustment would be easy and elegant enough to take care of it, I'd think. Maybe 2x the returns on GbtL (without risking some insane change to PVP, as if Prot has any rep in PVP anyhow).

    Please, please, PLEASE specify no return to the Sanctuary-style "x% mana return on dodge/parry"!

    Battle Healer was sort of stupidly overpowered even at 20%. I guess they just decided it was too good at any percentage and redesigned it instead. Again, I'd bet that well over 90% of prot paladins used this glyph full-time, which puts it in that "so absurdly good that it's mandatory" range, which isn't ideal. I've probably had GoBH glyphed for 6 months or more, to be honest. I change out the other two, but never that one. It was just a matter of time.

    That said, the new version is probably useless to any protection paladin working on difficult content. Giving up SoI is too much of a survivability hit unless you're already over-gearing the encounter. Might be an interesting option for 10-man or normal/flex tanks that don't feel threatened.
    From a 25m POV, I think that's probably a fair guess. But in 10m, I think we may be able to use this new glyph depending on encounter and tank mechanics. I really wish the glyph would give us a new ability, instead of just changing the seal. One that allows us to toggle on/off the "battle healer" effect, so that we can adjust on the fly, but that's likely a bit too good. Even though, with the glyph turned "off" you'd be giving up the opportunity cost of a different glyph, it'd likely be too "set it and forget it" methinks.

    The Grand Crusader change is the original version they tested during 5.3 PTR. It obviously does a better job of propping up dodge/parry, but leaves off-tanking a little more boring. But I don't think it's a good idea to infer long-term plans from that change either. Sure, they could remove dodge and parry, but that's not something they're going to do in a 5.x patch. That's an expansion-level overhaul.

    So I see this change as saying something more akin to "well, we know you're stuck with this stuff on some of your gear for a little while longer, we'll try to make it more useful to you in the short-term."
    Yep, and didn't you save us from this version the first time around? I suppose it's not ALL bad; sounds like a lot of add-related fights in SoO, so this may actually be a net gain. Still, a definite nerf to fun, given the removal of any personal action or interaction to cause the proc anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  4. #144
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3519?page=3#55

    "The Seal of Insight change is not intended as a Protection nerf, or to make haste less attractive. In fact, the change is being made because of a Holy concern. Although Seal of Insight does benefit from haste, the stat’s real value for Protection comes from Sanctity of Battle. Regardless, we will be making adjustments to make sure Protection doesn’t start having mana issues. Current thinking is to increase the mana gain from Guarded by the Light to 10%.

    Glyph of the Battle Healer was something we had originally intended to allow Holy to adopt a “melee healer” playstyle, but as class design changes shifted Protection towards using Seal of Insight primarily, it has become both mandatory and overpowered. It’s just significantly stronger than a glyph should be. We think that the redesign will still allow it to be useful for Protection, but much more situationally, which is fine.

    The Grand Crusader changes are indeed intended to make avoidance more attractive. The goal isn’t to nerf haste; as I mentioned, Sanctity of Battle is where the majority of haste’s value lies (along with other secondary benefits such as its interaction with Sacred Shield). However, we’ve seen overwhelming feedback that dodge and parry feel like wasted stats to Paladin tanks. It’s fine if you still prefer haste over avoidance, but we still intend to put avoidance on plate tanking gear, and we don’t want you to feel like those stats don’t benefit you when you get them.

    We are paying careful attention to your feedback while we work through these changes. Please keep in mind that specific feedback regarding what exactly your concerns are about the changes is significantly more useful to us than sweeping generalizations. Thanks "

    Some updates from a blue.

    Nairobi and I both have posts on page 4 asking some questions. Make sure you guys go and ask questions, give suggestions. DON'T demand stuff and turn the thread into a complete qq fest of nerdrage, that's how you get ignored quickly and get the answers that are questions like "why shouldn't you like dodge over haste". The qq and those types of responses will do nothing for this discussion.
    Last edited by Aceshigh; 2013-07-09 at 11:17 PM.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    As far as I can tell, you only start running OOM as prot if you're somewhere above 40% haste. Probably the devs never thought to check that edge case when making this change, as I think you're spot-on about it being a Holy nerf. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they compensated us in the mana regen department elsewhere, as it doesn't seem like this was targeted at us.
    Fairly certain you can and will run oom at 0% haste, considering I run oom in less than 1 minute with 40% haste, even managed to oom in 24 seconds by doing my rotation + DP, SoL, Rebuke and Reckoning. If you involve more things than just your rotation, if you have to use an interrupt, SoL, DP and stuff like that you can for sure go oom even at 0% haste.


    The only thing I am worried about with GC is that it promotes some very shady play including pulling multiple extra mobs on the tank and keeping them alive for constant stream of GC procs for 100% SotR uptime and increased dps. Have a feeling we are gonna see several insane strats involving prot paladins and a lot of rage and complaint from the rest of the community because of it.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #146

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    1) Glyph of the Battle Healer was something we had originally intended to allow Holy to adopt a “melee healer” playstyle
    2) The Grand Crusader changes are indeed intended to make avoidance more attractive.
    1) Kind of odd since holy's melee damage is nonexistant - did they really not have the insight that this would be much much more useful to prot (and ret).
    2) Thing is that they did the very same thing with the last change to GC and even then we already said that this change does next to nothing for dodge/parry and only serves to make tanking anything other than 1 target (that includes 0 targets) retarded !:
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  8. #148
    The horse wasn't dead until 10 minutes ago when this was confirmed, and you're the only person to really mention it specifically since. Good work, continue to rage about people discussing how things CURRENTLY are instead of saying "oh it's cool, this probably won't go live (which MANY of us said...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    1) Kind of odd since holy's melee damage is nonexistant - did they really not have the insight that this would be much much more useful to prot (and ret).
    2) Thing is that they did the very same thing with the last change to GC and even then we already said that this change does next to nothing for dodge/parry and only serves to make tanking anything other than 1 target (that includes 0 targets) retarded !:
    Yeah, I made a post asking why that didn't work in the 5.2/5.3 PTR but it does now, what has changed.
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-07-09 at 11:35 PM. Reason: Cleaned up quote

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Can we stop beating a dead horse ?
    But it is fun

    On a more serious note, really hope they settle for atleast 12% mana regen with GbtL, 10% could still cause mana starve issues. Even 12% could cause starvation on fights with the need for cleanse and/or rebuke. Imo we need atleast 15%.

    Also wonder when (if???) they are gonna realise how retarded that GC change is for multi-target tanking.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-09 at 11:29 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Does this mean we can count on a post of some sort on SD.net to help raise awareness?
    Sounds like it isn't necessary based on Ace's link. But yeah, if it was going to be a problem I would probably have written a blog post about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    From a 25m POV, I think that's probably a fair guess. But in 10m, I think we may be able to use this new glyph depending on encounter and tank mechanics. I really wish the glyph would give us a new ability, instead of just changing the seal. One that allows us to toggle on/off the "battle healer" effect, so that we can adjust on the fly, but that's likely a bit too good. Even though, with the glyph turned "off" you'd be giving up the opportunity cost of a different glyph, it'd likely be too "set it and forget it" methinks.
    Yeah, I think the glyph might actually be interesting in 10m. I just know that on 25H, I wouldn't give SoI heals up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Yep, and didn't you save us from this version the first time around?
    Not sure I can take credit for that, but I did blog about it. It's sort of disappointing on the one hand, but on the other it will strengthen the dodge/parry we do get stuck with.

    I should have SimC updated as soon as the new data is added to the PTR spell database, at which point I can give you a better estimate of exactly how much this shifts haste, dodge, and parry around.

    By the way, the next release of SimC will include my new smoothness metric (TMI), including the ability to generate stat weights using it.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    The horse wasn't dead until 10 minutes ago when this was confirmed, and you're the only person to really mention it specifically since. Good work, continue to rage about people discussing how things CURRENTLY are instead of saying "oh it's cool, this probably won't go live (which MANY of us said...).
    Isn't raging, more like a big red post so i can rage when 5 posts down people continue discussing how we can fix it.
    And you mean using common sense and realizing that since a bunch of other tanks (druids, warriors) aren't limited by resources, blizzard isn't going to make us manage a 2nd resource ?

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Fairly certain you can and will run oom at 0% haste, considering I run oom in less than 1 minute with 40% haste, even managed to oom in 24 seconds by doing my rotation + DP, SoL, Rebuke and Reckoning. If you involve more things than just your rotation, if you have to use an interrupt, SoL, DP and stuff like that you can for sure go oom even at 0% haste.
    I haven't tested it personally, but my friend (Kerriodos from Odyssey) did. At ~44% haste he was able to keep the full rotation up for a little over 2 minutes, if my memory of our conversation is correct.

    I'd have to do some math to confirm it, but going from 6% to 10% is probably close to what SoI was returning anyway.

    4% base mana per melee, CS, SotR. Let's be generous and assume 40% haste, so your melee swing timer is 2.60/1.4/1.1 = 1.688. CS happens every 4.5/1.4 = 3.214 seconds, and you should get about 1.4/4.5+1.4/6.75=0.519 HP/sec from CS and J. Let's throw some avoids in there and round up to 0.5454, which gives us a mean time between SotRs of 5.5 seconds.

    SoI is 20 PPM, so it's an 86.67% chance to proc per melee event with a 2.6-speed weapon. Based on that level of haste, we have

    1/1.688 + 1/3.214 + 1/5.5 = 1.085 chances to proc per second, which is 0.94 procs per second, or about 3.76% of base mana returned per second.

    So it's about half of what SoI gave us, but then again we never needed all of that SoI gain to maintain the rotation. I'm not sure exactly how much it'll cost to maintain the rotation at 40% haste (though again, it should be pretty easy to calculate), but I expect that the additional 2% base mana per second will cover it. If not, it wouldn't be hard to buff it to 12% or 14% if it's absolutely required.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Isn't raging, more like a big red post so i can rage when 5 posts down people continue discussing how we can fix it.
    And you mean using common sense and realizing that since a bunch of other tanks (druids, warriors) aren't limited by resources, blizzard isn't going to make us manage a 2nd resource ?
    Dude you're being difficult for absoltely no reason. People have said it many, many times that Blizzard has let big things slip past them before and let REALLY dumb shit go live, this was so that didn't happen and then people talked about what would happen IIIIIIFFFFFF it did. And from the looks of the responses it was an oversight by them or they would already have accounted for it. Jesus Christ man, read the fucking threads, read what people are actually writing. Yeah common sense says something like this would cripple a spec/playstyle if it went live. Past experience says dumb shit happens if it isn't talked about. Apply that same common sense to instances where dumb/broken shit goes live then come back and say "but but but it's common sense!!!!"
    Last edited by Aceshigh; 2013-07-09 at 11:56 PM.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    I'd have to do some math to confirm it, but going from 6% to 10% is probably close to what SoI was returning anyway. .

    With 10% we can still oom fairly easily using our normal rotation, especially if we are abusing GC procs. We would need 14% to substain chain GC procs at 50% haste, think around 12% to substain a normal rotation, but we have to remember the utility abilities around that. Imo we need atleast 15%, preferably closer to 18%, so we can use cleanse and rebuke freely.

    14% is close to what we have now.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-10 at 12:15 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Dude you're being difficult for absoltely no reason. People have said it many, many times that Blizzard has let big things slip past them before and let REALLY dumb shit go live, this was so that didn't happen and then people talked about what would happen IIIIIIFFFFFF it did. And from the looks of the responses it was an oversight by them or they would already have accounted for it. Jesus Christ man, read the fucking threads, read what people are actually writing. Yeah common sense says something like this would cripple a spec/playstyle if it went live. Past experience says dumb shit happens if it isn't talked about. Apply that same common sense to instances where dumb/broken shit goes live then come back and say "but but but it's common sense!!!!"
    Instead it's much better to go ballistic over some change that hasn't even been implemented on ptr and just briefly mentioned on blue post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    With 10% we can still oom fairly easily using our normal rotation, especially if we are abusing GC procs. We would need 14% to substain chain GC procs at 50% haste, think around 12% to substain a normal rotation, but we have to remember the utility abilities around that. Imo we need atleast 15%, preferably closer to 18%, so we can use cleanse and rebuke freely.

    14% is close to what we have now.
    18% every 2 sec will probably break prot paladin healing in pvp and we'll get nerfed :<

  16. #156
    You know, while the fact they will be making sure Prot doesn't go oom should be obvious to everyone, the whole discussion just made me wonder why classes that can't go oom or aren't intended to (under normal circumstances) even have mana. Bit of a legacy these days. Maybe it makes sense for say, Ret and Prot Paladins because they can spam inefficient heals in a pinch. But what about Fire and Frost Mages? Weird as it seems I can actually imagine them making mana an Arcane only resource in the future.

    And if mana only exists for non-healers as a limiter on offhealing then that could be accomplished by other means as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    I agree, the whole idea of ever single spell you use having a CD is retarded. I don't udnerstand why people are SO against the removal of dodge/parry or "tank stats".
    Druids don't give a shit about dodge gear anymore. Druids and Monks both take agility and crit as their best stats and before crit with monks it was haste. I don't understand how it's dumb. Maybe dodge and parry are just outdated and not interesting, much like def cap as a tank mechanic. Haste also isn't the most optimal way, its a balanced way that has the benefit of being much more fun. You wanna take the least amount of dmg overall? The math showed that full avoidance build was best for that. You wanna take the leas amount of dmg from a predictable source that can gib you (tortos, sha of fear, etc)? Take mastery. You want to have the biggest buffer possible to survive multiple hits on progression? Go stam. There are many many different effective ways to play when you're looking at damage intake. The thought that haste is just the best not matter what always isn't correct. Haste is the most well rounded, but everything still has it's strong sides and weak sides.

    Blizzard has also said recently that they like the current Paladin model and how it has turned out. Paladins right now best execute the active mitigation model IMO.
    Well I'm not saying the players are dumb for taking the optimal stats, I'm saying it's dumb that DPS stats are optimal for tanks. Good is okay, optimal isn't. What if dodge became the best stat for a ret pally? That would just be absurd.

    I agree about the active mitigation model, I really like the way my Prot Pally plays as of MoP. Probably my new favourite tank (sorry Prot Warrior).

    On the everything-has-a-cooldown model yeah, I can see how it's a bit of a clunky design. But they do want to make each class unique. Shrug. Still feels better than my Warrior who gives me RSI mashing keys lol.

    Dodge and parry being old fashioned is... well a symptom of the age of the game I guess. Their design goals for tanks are a bit wobbly I have to say, and in the last couple of expansions has caused some weird situations. I think a good solution would be to consider redesigning the stats entirely so that they play directly into your active mitigation instead of being a bit pile of passive mitigation. That way they would remain valuable but also feel like fun stats to take. Be a big redesign though.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2013-07-10 at 12:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  17. #157
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Texas(I wish it were CO)
    Posts
    3,419
    I don't get why they don't just remove the mana return from SoI for holy only, that way they don't create a retarded problem for prot that will result in a solution that is either insufficient or overpowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    18% every 2 sec will probably break prot paladin healing in pvp and we'll get nerfed :<
    Are we talking about prots being OP in PvP? What alternate reality is this?

    18% would allow us to cast one FoL ever 4.1 seconds, that is hardly OP. And doing so would not allow us to cast anything else. We would do no DPS, and we would do a lot higher dps by not casting FoL at all, presuming you can reach your target in melee. It would not really change a thing about prots current state in PvP, which is non-existant.

    18% is not much higher than what we have now which is around 14%.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    But it is fun

    On a more serious note, really hope they settle for atleast 12% mana regen with GbtL, 10% could still cause mana starve issues. Even 12% could cause starvation on fights with the need for cleanse and/or rebuke. Imo we need atleast 15%.

    Also wonder when (if???) they are gonna realise how retarded that GC change is for multi-target tanking.
    After they see hardcore guilds pulling bosses with trash they'll probably add an ICD.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyranne View Post
    After they see hardcore guilds pulling bosses with trash they'll probably add an ICD.
    Which then completely removes all value in dodge/parry again which makes this entire change meaningless.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •