Thread: Prot Nerfs

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  1. #1

    Prot Nerfs

    Here it comes, folks. Blizzard still isn't happy with Battle Healer, so here comes the nerf hammer:

    Glyph of Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin. (source)

    Goodbye Battle Healer. Yes, Blizzard, we're going to give up our passive self-healing to overheal the raid. Stupid.

    I really don't get this next change, though:

    Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks.
    Won't we go OOM just using Consecrate for an extended period of time? In what universe was the mana regen mechanic we've relied upon to do our basic job overpowered? Is this a shortsighted Holy nerf affecting Prot? I doubt even that -- Holy meleeing for mana wasn't breaking the game, and isn't possible in some fights due to Holy paladins' being flagged as "ranged" for purposes of encounter mechanics.

    And then there's this little gem:

    Grand Crusader no longer has a chance to activate from Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, but now has a 30% chance to activate when dodging or parrying a melee attack (up from 12%).
    That's right, folks. They gave Sanctity of Battle to Protection in the first place, and turned dodge and parry to shit in this expansion, but damn it, they're going to shove avoidance down our throats, and we're going to like it! Um, no, we'll just keep stacking haste and accept that Grand Crusader won't be happening very often ever again.

    These aren't data-mined changes; check the source from the first quote. This is a dev blog for the 5.4 PTR.
    Last edited by Kaeth; 2013-07-09 at 04:24 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    Here it comes, folks. Blizzard still isn't happy with Battle Healer, so here comes the nerf hammer:

    [/URL]
    Goodbye Battle Healer. Yes, Blizzard, we're going to give up our passive self-healing to overheal the raid. Stupid.

    I really don't get this next change, though:



    Won't we go OOM just using Consecrate for an extended period of time? In what universe was the mana regen mechanic we've relied upon to do our basic job overpowered? Is this a shortsighted Holy nerf affecting Prot? I doubt even that -- Holy meleeing for mana wasn't breaking the game, and isn't possible in some fights due to Holy paladins' being flagged as "ranged" for purposes of encounter mechanics.

    And then there's this little gem:



    That's right, folks. They gave Sanctity of Battle to Protection in the first place, and turned dodge and parry to shit in this expansion, but damn it, they're going to shove avoidance down our throats, and we're going to like it! Um, no, we'll just keep stacking haste and accept that Grand Crusader won't be happening very often ever again.

    These aren't data-mined changes; check the source from the first quote. This is a dev blog for the 5.4 PTR.
    Tbh i'm not too worried.

    SoI change probably targeted at holy.

    GC change : tbh don't care, minor boost is minor.

    Glyph of battle healer :
    I think you're confused, it's going to give OP passive healing to the raid, instead of overhealing us.

  3. #3
    Well, the BH change is minor at best and kinda warranted. GC change just make us even more broken on multiple targets. SoI change makes me go ??? We are gonna oom with we dont get that mana back.
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  4. #4
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    BH change actually gives some meaning to the glyph, the rest is just absurd.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well, the BH change is minor at best and kinda warranted. GC change just make us even more broken on multiple targets. SoI change makes me go ??? We are gonna oom with we dont get that mana back.
    Again, most likely our mana returns will be buffed. I don't think blizzard wants holy paladins to be "melee weaving"

  6. #6
    Well so much just does not make sense at current state. Monks are fine with passive absorbs but paladins are not with passive healing? The entire design of BH was flawed to begin with (designed for ret). SoI nerf feels like a nerf to Hpala but I do not really see why. Monks are already fistweaving and they are fine doing well over 100k dps while healing, that is perfectly fine apparently. They gonna have to seriously change something for prots mana regen. I was going oom using SoT rather quickly at only 15% haste early in the expansion.

    The GC change just makes no sense, it is gonna be completely broken on multi-target. Feels like a way to just push avoidance down our throat instead of fixing the other tanks. Avoidance is still gonna be shit and unwanted. Not like we are gonna gear for avoidance so we can maybe get an avoid so we can maybe get a gc proc. I see it as a buff though, just a completely pointless one that is gonna be borderline broken. I havent checked 5.4 fights at all on PTR, but if there is any fight with a lot of adds, hello 100% SotR uptime and 1 million dps with AS spam.

    Yo palas, I heard you like RNG so I put some RNG on your RNG so you can RNG while you RNG.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The GC change just makes no sense, it is gonna be completely broken on multi-target. Feels like a way to just push avoidance down our throat instead of fixing the other tanks. Avoidance is still gonna be shit and unwanted. Not like we are gonna gear for avoidance so we can maybe get an avoid so we can maybe get a gc proc. I see it as a buff though, just a completely pointless one that is gonna be borderline broken. I havent checked 5.4 fights at all on PTR, but if there is any fight with a lot of adds, hello 100% SotR uptime and 1 million dps with AS spam.
    Nazgrim, possibly paragons, protectors, probably spoilers of pandaria.
    Might be forgetting something.

  8. #8
    GC change might allow full avoidance gearing for heavy add fights like T14 Windlord. Somone has to math out HP generation with respect to avoidance and number of adds. I imagine there will be a point where new GC will proc like barbarian Revenge in D3.

  9. #9
    Well, the bh change doesn't bother me at all, the g change... i'm not happy about it, but at least we can now have more use from the spare dodge/parry that we can't fully reforge, so i think it will be almost the same in boss fights, but is a buff in fights with lots of mobs or adds.The mana regen did give me a bit of a scare, why don't they just nerf it for holy , or nerf the amount restored by half?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    We are gonna oom with we dont get that mana back.
    This is of least worries. Protection paladins have passive mana regen, which isn't shown anywhere in description of their spec, but it makes mana being completely non-issue at all (unless you are heavily using Flash of Light, which you shouldn't).

    I have nothing against GC proc being removed from CS/HotR either. Somewhat more emphasis on defensive stats.

    But Glyph's change is awful, as prot. paladins don't really have much interesting and useful glyphs, this was one of few glyphs which really mattered.

    However, SoI nerf will be big for holy paladins, they have very (if not most) expensive heals among all healers, because spell cost was designed around gaining mana from auto-attacks. If SoI's mana return will be removed, spell cost of heals should be toned down by a lot too.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    This is of least worries. Protection paladins have passive mana regen, which isn't shown anywhere in description of their spec, but it makes mana being completely non-issue at all (unless you are heavily using Flash of Light, which you shouldn't).
    On live right now you can easily OOM at the 40%+ haste levels. Happens in about 30 seconds without SOI. Check it out, the 6% return every 2 seconds or whatever it is is not NEARLY enough. Think you're underestimating this quite a bit.


    If this is intended to go live (which I doubt, our mana has to be getting a buff another way), COMBINED with the GC change it just goes to show that they're trying to push us away from haste and into dodge/parry/mastery even though they said they like where paladins are,. You can't run a high haste build and not OOM yourself

    I actually think you've got this backwards and are worried about the BH glyph (which any prot paladin will say was pretty retarded on high veng fights) and not worried about the other two. That's very strange to me.

    EDIT: 48 seconds on a target dummy with 35% haste and I brought myself to 40% mana while applying SS three times (has no mana cost, simulated wasting the global to refresh with veng during a fight, that's 3 globals where I didn't spend mana and could have) and going through normal rotation. Add in that I'm NOWHERE close to BIS or max haste and don't have any raid buffs and lust wasn't accounted here, OOMing is incredibly easy to do.
    Last edited by Aceshigh; 2013-07-09 at 06:04 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    But Glyph's change is awful, as prot. paladins don't really have much interesting and useful glyphs, this was one of few glyphs which really mattered.
    The glyph wasn't even remotely interested. It was a dumb "always use this" glyph that had only benefit no side grades, now it's actually interesting one which we might need to evaluate in fight by fight cases.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    On live right now you can easily OOM at the 40%+ haste levels. Happens in about 30 seconds without SOI. Check it out, the 6% return every 2 seconds or whatever it is is not NEARLY enough. Think you're underestimating this quite a bit.
    Probably I don't have these problems because i am not using full-haste build, which is imo awkward, and should be expected to be nerfed even more in time.
    The glyph wasn't even remotely interested. It was a dumb "always use this" glyph that had only benefit no side grades, now it's actually interesting one which we might need to evaluate in fight by fight cases.
    Interesting glyphs are those which are useful. Add X function to such and such ability but penalize it by removing other function of ability isn't interesting. Making glyphs operate on very convoluted basis, so in the end they barely help you is stupid design. From WotLk examples - 10 expertise with SoV was interesting glyph; 3% less damage taken while Divine Plea is active was interesting glyph. Judgement juggling glyph or glyph, which strips SoI (one of main seals) of it's primary function by adding heal with tons of overhealing, those are stupid and mostly useless.

    Dumb glyphs are those glyphs which you might as well not use without losing any benefits. Aka most of MoP glyphs. And even those few glyphs which were remotely useful are getting nerfed.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Probably I don't have these problems because i am not using full-haste build, which is imo awkward, and should be expected to be nerfed even more in time.
    haste build smooths out playing a paladin IMMENSELY, just like it does for Retribution. I would fucking HATE this class if I was sitting on 4.5+ second CDs on every one of my abilities. Why do you say haste needs to be nerfed even more? What is the reasoning behind this?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    Goodbye Battle Healer. Yes, Blizzard, we're going to give up our passive self-healing to overheal the raid. Stupid.
    How can something that targets the lowest HP character overheal? Except insofar as it overhealed already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    That's right, folks. They gave Sanctity of Battle to Protection in the first place, and turned dodge and parry to shit in this expansion, but damn it, they're going to shove avoidance down our throats, and we're going to like it!
    You don't like that dodge and parry were devalued, and then complain that they re-value them?

    You're a tank, you're supposed to like tank stats. If not you should be playing DPS.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    haste build smooths out playing a paladin IMMENSELY, just like it does for Retribution. I would fucking HATE this class if I was sitting on 4.5+ second CDs on every one of my abilities. Why do you say haste needs to be nerfed even more? What is the reasoning behind this?
    If the rotation is so shit without a full haste build then the rotation needs to be redesigned. Tanks ignoring tank stats and stacking a DPS stat is silly. It's okay if haste is useful, but when it's optimal that's just dumb.
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  16. #16
    Probably I don't have these problems because i am not using full-haste build, which is imo awkward, and should be expected to be nerfed even more in time.
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=53592

    GbtL grants you 6% manna / 2 sec.
    Even with 0 haste, that is 4.5% manna/gcd.

    ability - mana cost
    CS - 15% (!, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=35395)
    Judgment - 5% (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20271)
    Rebuke - 11.7% (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=96231)
    AS - 7% (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=31935)
    Cons - 7% (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=26573)

    Good luck with that.


    So will we go back, and stack spirit and spellpower?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    Grand Crusader no longer has a chance to activate from Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, but now has a 30% chance to activate when dodging or parrying a melee attack (up from 12%).
    As someone that only plays Prot to solo the Lich King, this change is awesome.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    If the rotation is so shit without a full haste build then the rotation needs to be redesigned. Tanks ignoring tank stats and stacking a DPS stat is silly. It's okay if haste is useful, but when it's optimal that's just dumb.
    I agree, the whole idea of ever single spell you use having a CD is retarded. I don't udnerstand why people are SO against the removal of dodge/parry or "tank stats".
    Druids don't give a shit about dodge gear anymore. Druids and Monks both take agility and crit as their best stats and before crit with monks it was haste. I don't understand how it's dumb. Maybe dodge and parry are just outdated and not interesting, much like def cap as a tank mechanic. Haste also isn't the most optimal way, its a balanced way that has the benefit of being much more fun. You wanna take the least amount of dmg overall? The math showed that full avoidance build was best for that. You wanna take the leas amount of dmg from a predictable source that can gib you (tortos, sha of fear, etc)? Take mastery. You want to have the biggest buffer possible to survive multiple hits on progression? Go stam. There are many many different effective ways to play when you're looking at damage intake. The thought that haste is just the best not matter what always isn't correct. Haste is the most well rounded, but everything still has it's strong sides and weak sides.

    Blizzard has also said recently that they like the current Paladin model and how it has turned out. Paladins right now best execute the active mitigation model IMO.
    Last edited by Aceshigh; 2013-07-09 at 06:43 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=53592

    GbtL grants you 6% manna / 2 sec.
    Even with 0 haste, that is 4.5% manna/gcd.

    ability - mana cost
    CS - 15% (!, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=35395)
    Judgment - 5% (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20271)
    Rebuke - 11.7% (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=96231)
    AS - 7% (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=31935)
    Cons - 7% (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=26573)

    Good luck with that.


    So will we go back, and stack spirit and spellpower?
    CS costs 3% mana for prot. Guarded by the Light has the hidden condition of reducing its cost by 80%.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ccqpuodp View Post
    CS costs 3% mana for prot. Guarded by the Light has the hidden condition of reducing its cost by 80%.
    I felt that something was wrong with that 15%...
    Thanks for the info.

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