Thread: Prot Nerfs

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by pureallstar3482 View Post
    Am I missing something? I thought Glyph of the Battle Healer always healed raid members instead of the paladin themselves? Currently, the live version only heals raid members and not the paladin, so i don't know what the change is.
    The change is you stop healing yourself with SoI.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The change is you stop healing yourself with SoI.
    I got ya, so you have to choose to either heal yourself or heal your raid, rather than SoI healing you and the glyph healing the raid on top of that.

  3. #63
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    I don't care about being the best tank, I have long said that paladins have been too good since the start of this expansion and pointed out ways they should have been nerfed. This has much more to do with the fact that they've been telling us they like where Paladins are and how they worked with active mitigation (and they hit the mark for it with paladins IMO, by far the best active mitigation in the game in terms of gameplay) but these changes are showing us the opposite of that. Until they tell us our mana will be buffed in some other way the SOI nerf is a direct nerf to haste gearing. The change to GC (while not a HUGE deal I don't think) is again a nerf to haste gearing. I understand Paladins are strong tanks, but they have been this entire expansion. There are absolutely areas that should be nerfed, but what this is doing is driving players away from the haste playstyle, something that the playerbase fought hard for in 5.2. This is driving players away from the active mitigation model that is basically everything they said they wanted active mitigation to be.
    In general (and in principle, actually) I agree with you - the developers should never nerf fun, and that's what these changes are doing assuming mana returns aren't accounted for elsewhere. A couple of people on my realm have laughed it off with commentary like "I never use [utility spell] anyway, so who cares?" Personally, I think those maximising what their class can do should be rewarded, not punished for trying to play well.

    I haven't played a great deal on my paladin this expansion, but in crap gear and replicating these nerfs, I'm ending up out of mana in less than a minute.

    Ultimately, that's broken (in a bad way for once) and won't go live - the developers like what Sanctity of Battle does, it's the future of tanking anyway, and they won't make paladin tanks a liability.

    In short, chillax. They'll retune the mana loss. The bigger issue is why they think they need to nerf Holy paladins when they're still being heavily outperformed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    You are just stuck in the past, currently only prot warriors care about dodge/parry and even that is because other(haste/crit) stats are even worse. How about start adapting?
    I know what you're saying, but you're still not quite right; even warriors avoid dodge and parry. We're pretty much going for hit/expertise caps, then mastery and stamina. The new passive talent (Riposte) is not going to change that fact.

  4. #64
    Well at least now on live, the Glyph of Battle Healer DOES already exclude the Paladin ? Or am I reading something wrong?

    Patchnotes: (5.4): "Glyph of Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin."

    Glyph on live: http://www.wowhead.com/item=81956

    "Using melee attacks while using Seal of Insight heals a nearby injured friendly target, excluding the Paladin, within 30 yards for 20% of damage dealt."

    So at least in my understanding, the heal doesn't go already on myself, instead on someone else in my grp/raid.

    I just tanked the dummy with Seal of Truth instead if Insight. 10 minutes fight, with use of everything on GCD, esp. Consec (4200 Mana) and Fist of Justice (2106 Mana). I fell to around 42k Mana and never went under it anyways. We do have some hidden Mana Reg, so no worry.

    Grand Crusader kinda sucks when playing on a full haste build (like i do, since my main spec is Ret, so i use 2 Prot Set Items, rest is from my Ret Spec), but on the other hand, it wasn't that good anyways, only when tanking many adds who could be interrupted with the shield (Bats in front of Tortos, Cast-Adds in the Room of Dark Animus. We get a doubled chance to proc, but from another (less often happening) souce. So no real big game changer ..

    Edit: yeah, just ready the tooltip ^^ and got the nerf. On live now: Glyph heals the raid with 20% of my melee hits WHILE SoI heals myself for almost 8k. On PTR => heal me (without Glyph) OR heal the Raid (with Glyph) when using SoI.
    Last edited by Funky303; 2013-07-09 at 01:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Yeah, we hate humor and we do not allow it. Last time someone tried to be funny we tracked him down with his IP and broke his leg, then we forced him to race change all his characters to female dwarves. If you think you can be funny on my forums, think twice. (Also I will actually track down and kill anyone using that as a signature)
    Yes, they mean it! Got a broken leg, a female Dwarf and an infraction. Don't mess with humor folks !

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I know what you're saying, but you're still not quite right; even warriors avoid dodge and parry. We're pretty much going for hit/expertise caps, then mastery and stamina. The new passive talent (Riposte) is not going to change that fact.
    You will reach the point where you have both caps, and come across an item with already mastery on it, logical solution is to reforge into parry/dodge at that point (afaik).

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Funky303 View Post
    I just tanked the dummy with Seal of Truth instead if Insight. 10 minutes fight, with use of everything on GCD, esp. Consec (4200 Mana) and Fist of Justice (2106 Mana). I fell to around 42k Mana and never went under it anyways. We do have some hidden Mana Reg, so no worry
    You are not clicking your buttons fast enough. I oom in under 30 seconds while just throwing in some taunt, interrupt and divine protection
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    You will reach the point where you have both caps, and come across an item with already mastery on it, logical solution is to reforge into parry/dodge at that point (afaik).
    Fair enough; but even then, I think most warriors will probably look to find more stamina before bothering with dodge and parry. I could aim for the Critical Block cap in my current gear and not quite get there (and I'm not terribly geared), so without giving away all my stamina via hybrid gems and trinkets, I should be okay.

  8. #68
    Well I do click them fast enough. One sec, i log out in my Prot Spec

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...dwars/advanced

    I just tried it 5 min again, I never ever fall under 40k Mana.

    Edit: Armory link in english ^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Yeah, we hate humor and we do not allow it. Last time someone tried to be funny we tracked him down with his IP and broke his leg, then we forced him to race change all his characters to female dwarves. If you think you can be funny on my forums, think twice. (Also I will actually track down and kill anyone using that as a signature)
    Yes, they mean it! Got a broken leg, a female Dwarf and an infraction. Don't mess with humor folks !

  9. #69
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    I don't honestly see the issue tbh. Looks as though we'll do some more adjusting (as has been the case every patch) but the solution is usually Oh looks like I need more haste *ret paladins + DPS DK's in the raid glare at me*. The battle healer change will certainly be interesting, if its a case of, I need heals becuase my damage is spiky, or the raid needs heals because the raid dmg is high, and allows me to pursue more interesting glyph setups. However, the level of QQ is fairly high from people that have no idea how active mitigation works and post more along the lines of "STOP TAKING MY DPS GEAR YOU TANK".
    Arneia/Panthea - Guild Master + Raid Leader - <Catalyst> 25man Horde - Tarren Mill - Currently Recruiting: Click for more info

  10. #70
    One thing that should be noted about battle-healer is that it is the SoI ticks that the paladin currently get that will instead heal the raid. These are far higher than the current state battle-healer so if we glyph battle-healer we will now heal the raid more than before.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #71
    All our mana consumers:

    Blinding Light: 4800
    Hands: 4200
    Consec: 4200
    Avenger's Shield: 4200
    Hand of Salvation: 3200
    Judgement: 3000
    Holy Wrath: 3000
    Fist of Justice (Talent): 2106
    Reckoning (Taunt): 2100
    Div Protection: 2100

    I tried it again while using Cons, Blinding Light, a Hand etc and never really went somewhere close to 50% (Using hands on CD does lower the manalevel, but only from 40k to 30k)

    I also have the option enabled OnKeyPress and not OnKeyRelease.

    So I really don't know how you ever get OOM in 30 sec.
    Last edited by Funky303; 2013-07-09 at 01:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Yeah, we hate humor and we do not allow it. Last time someone tried to be funny we tracked him down with his IP and broke his leg, then we forced him to race change all his characters to female dwarves. If you think you can be funny on my forums, think twice. (Also I will actually track down and kill anyone using that as a signature)
    Yes, they mean it! Got a broken leg, a female Dwarf and an infraction. Don't mess with humor folks !

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Funky303 View Post
    Well I do click them fast enough. One sec, i log out in my Prot Spec

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...dwars/advanced

    I just tried it 5 min again, I never ever fall under 40k Mana.

    Edit: Armory link in english ^^
    Well using 2 rebuke, 2 reckonings, 1 divine prot and 1 speed of light I oom in under 30 seconds at only 40% haste.

    Edit: New oom record, 24 seconds throwing in blinding light this time aswell. Still no cleanse, no hands etc

    I really dont understand how you can not oom. Current mana regen is not even close to viable.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-09 at 01:40 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well using 2 rebuke, 2 reckonings, 1 divine prot and 1 speed of light I oom in under 30 seconds at only 40% haste.

    Edit: New oom record, 24 seconds
    Even dropping to 20% haste, still ooming in 75 seconds average. There is no possible way this can make it to live.

  14. #74
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pureallstar3482 View Post
    Am I missing something? I thought Glyph of the Battle Healer always healed raid members instead of the paladin themselves? Currently, the live version only heals raid members and not the paladin, so i don't know what the change is.
    I think it now REMOVES the self-heal of SoI and applies it to everyone else (rather than a percent of it)
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  15. #75
    Okay, using rebuke + hands on CD ooms me too. I just forgot Rebuke, 7200 Mana :/

    Well we'll see, i sincerely never use hands on CD and rebuke on CD as Prot (only Rebuke on CD on Council on Elders for Zul and the little Princess).

    Still under normal tanking habits, i would'nt ever go OOM. When beeing OOM to exactly zero (using rebuke as soon as it is possible when beeing under 7000 Mana), i get 5% mana instant back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Yeah, we hate humor and we do not allow it. Last time someone tried to be funny we tracked him down with his IP and broke his leg, then we forced him to race change all his characters to female dwarves. If you think you can be funny on my forums, think twice. (Also I will actually track down and kill anyone using that as a signature)
    Yes, they mean it! Got a broken leg, a female Dwarf and an infraction. Don't mess with humor folks !

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Funky303 View Post
    Okay, using rebuke + hands on CD ooms me too. I just forgot Rebuke, 7200 Mana :/

    Well we'll see, i sincerely never use hands on CD and rebuke on CD as Prot (only Rebuke on CD on Council on Elders for Zul and the little Princess).

    Still under normal tanking habits, i would'nt ever go OOM. When beeing OOM to exactly zero (using rebuke as soon as it is possible when beeing under 7000 Mana), i get 5% mana instant back.
    Trouble with this is, we should never be unable to use our core abilities. If we are balanced around only keeping our rotation up but then suddenly a fight happens where we need to interupt and cleanse (for example) we wouldn't be able to sustain it.

    Holy Power should be our resource, like Warriors rage, NOT mana.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Funky303 View Post
    Okay, using rebuke + hands on CD ooms me too. I just forgot Rebuke, 7200 Mana :/

    Well we'll see, i sincerely never use hands on CD and rebuke on CD as Prot (only Rebuke on CD on Council on Elders for Zul and the little Princess).

    Still under normal tanking habits, i would'nt ever go OOM. When beeing OOM to exactly zero (using rebuke as soon as it is possible when beeing under 7000 Mana), i get 5% mana instant back.
    Using only my normal rotation and Sanctified Wrath (no other spell that is not a part of our rotation), I oomed in 1 minute 15 seconds.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #78
    I don't understand why they would want us to go for avoidance stats, Tanking is already pretty boring as it is, stand there let boss whack you taunt on debuff. The thing that makes Tanking fun for me, and I'm sure others as well is trying to take the least amount of dmg to progress the encounters while doing as much DPS as possible. If they move away from tanks doing DPS, que times will be a lot longer. I for one will stop tanking and im sure others will as well.

  19. #79
    To apply some maths to that. I would have to do my rotation 30% slower to not go oom (not considering divine protection, rebuke, cleanse and hands)

    That means I will spend 30% of my time being oom, doing nothing.

    Every rebuke used another 3.8 seconds AFK.
    Div prot / SoL used means another 1.16 seconds afk
    Every cleanse another 5 seconds afk
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-09 at 01:57 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #80
    Pandaren Monk schwank05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    How can something that targets the lowest HP character overheal? Except insofar as it overhealed already.



    You don't like that dodge and parry were devalued, and then complain that they re-value them?

    You're a tank, you're supposed to like tank stats. If not you should be playing DPS.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If the rotation is so shit without a full haste build then the rotation needs to be redesigned. Tanks ignoring tank stats and stacking a DPS stat is silly. It's okay if haste is useful, but when it's optimal that's just dumb.
    I don't think it is dumb, coming from someone who loved Feral Tank, and want a real plate shield tank. This makes sense to me as just parry/Dodge is boring. I like being different and being able to actually enjoy tanking a bit.

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