Thread: Prot Nerfs

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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    I'd just calm down, why would they ruin an entirely specc in such a dumb way? They'll either reduce your mana cost by another percentage and link that to Sanctuary or simply reverse the change for prot.
    Stupider changes have gone live. They won't revert it unless someone complains. Which we're doing, here and on official forums.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    I'd just calm down, why would they ruin an entirely specc in such a dumb way? They'll either reduce your mana cost by another percentage and link that to Sanctuary or simply reverse the change for prot.
    Because "calm down" ends up resulting in Blizzard not seeing the extra ramifications of the change (assuming they weren't intended), and then doesn't compensate for it. And if they do compensate for it, it comes days after the patch (only nerfs come within 24 hours of a patch), after protadins have been benched (either by the raid or by the players), making it too little too late.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  3. #103
    Again my money is on SoL affecting only holy (or at least prot paladins getting mitigation, i'm not going to believe that blizzard wants us to OOM).

    However the new glyph change might actually be a buff on some of the fights. From some of my fights calculations :
    SoI 7131084 OH : 50.4%
    BH 3493828 OH : 21.5%

    So actual SoI raw healing is : 14 377 185
    Actual BH 4 450 736

    Currently my healing is : 10 624 912
    With glyph my healing is going to be : 14 377 185 / overheal %

    Even if i have 35% overheal with a SMART heal i'm still going to have bigger HPS output than i currently do.
    What it means is : healers focus less on healing raid and more on focus me
    More mana efficient for healers
    Safer for me (less change that i got dropped while healer was healing dps)
    I have simply bigger HPS output

    As you can see my BH has a lot lower OH % than my SoL which means that even tho the 15% free healing will hurt us, just the fact that we're not going to be wasting as much healing as we currently do is going to be bigger output.

    Using my current BH overheal % my actual healing would be 11 833 074 , more than 10% buff.
    If you communicate with healers " focus on me" this might be very powerful.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I just tested live, took me 2 minutes and 30 seconds to go oom, that is without using Divine Protection that also cost mana.
    No taunt, cleanse, bop, salv, sacrifice, holy prism, speed of light, buffs etc, all of which also cost mana.

    [...]
    I just tested with a "push button like crazy" rotation, keeping most abilities with mana costs on cd (e.g. taunt, DivProt, AS... but not Cleanse, HoF, HoP, Salv, Sac, Hoj, Blinding Light). In addition I did not use any fillers without mana cost (SS, lvl90 talent, AD, GoAK) to get the most mana per GCD output. I managed finally to go oom after 6:30 minutes! I particular went to Darnassus in order to get a low latency (80 ms in my case). Under those circumstances I still doubt anyone will have to deal with this problem under normal conditions. You can manage to do so but you really have to work toward 0 mana, e.g. using Cleanse on cd.

    Do not compare this to the situation in 3.x, when we almost only relied on Spiritual Attunement. In those days a prot pally, who didn't get healed by someone else went oom in seconds. I'm still more concerned with blizzard's ambivalent attitude towards stat distribution on our tier set for prot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    You are just stuck in the past, [...] How about start adapting?
    Exactly that seems to be the problem some devs are having.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    It's 1800 mana per 1.0 sec, which is GCD cap, which is what most of us are approaching. CS/HotR alone 1800 mana.

    [...]

    Do you still not see how we go dry?
    You're right theoretically, but it doesn't seem to be the case in praxis. And it can not only be blamed on slow reacting players. There must be an additional source.



    PS:
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    I'm pretty certain some of the people posting here under the guise of "I AM A PALADIN RLY DUDE! xP" are billy bullshitters who are rubbing their hands with glee at a potential nerf to their co-tanks. That or they are actually just fucking awful players.
    Thanks Valarius for this excellent addition to this discussion.
    Last edited by Homsel; 2013-07-09 at 05:44 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Homsel View Post
    I just tested with a "push button like crazy" rotation, keeping most abilities with mana costs on cd (e.g. taunt, DivProt, AS... but not Cleanse, HoF, HoP, Salv, Sac, Hoj, Blinding Light). In addition I did not use any fillers without mana cost (SS, lvl90 talent, AD, GoAK) to get the most mana per GCD output. I managed finally to go oom after 6:30 minutes! I particular went to Darnassus in order to get a low latency (80 ms in my case). Under those circumstances I still doubt anyone will have to deal with this problem under normal conditions. You can manage to do so but you really have to work toward 0 mana, e.g. using Cleanse on cd.

    Do not compare this to the situation in 3.x, when we almost only relied on Spiritual Attunement. In those days a prot pally, who didn't get healed by someone else went oom in seconds. I'm still more concerned with blizzard's ambivalent attitude towards stat distribution on our tier set for prot.
    Exactly that seems to be the case for some devs.


    PS:Thanks Valarius for this excellent addition to this discussion.
    When I was progressing in Council I was using Seal of Truth whenever the Frost King didn't have the Frigid Assault buff (we'd lust in the beginning). I kept running out of mana so quickly that I had to switch to insight (and I even had to use my arcane torrent to give me some mana).

    Next tier we'll have more haste then we do now so this will only get worse.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Again my money is on SoL affecting only holy (or at least prot paladins getting mitigation, i'm not going to believe that blizzard wants us to OOM).

    However the new glyph change might actually be a buff on some of the fights. From some of my fights calculations :
    SoI 7131084 OH : 50.4%
    BH 3493828 OH : 21.5%

    So actual SoI raw healing is : 14 377 185
    Actual BH 4 450 736

    Currently my healing is : 10 624 912
    With glyph my healing is going to be : 14 377 185 / overheal %

    Even if i have 35% overheal with a SMART heal i'm still going to have bigger HPS output than i currently do.
    What it means is : healers focus less on healing raid and more on focus me
    More mana efficient for healers
    Safer for me (less change that i got dropped while healer was healing dps)
    I have simply bigger HPS output

    As you can see my BH has a lot lower OH % than my SoL which means that even tho the 15% free healing will hurt us, just the fact that we're not going to be wasting as much healing as we currently do is going to be bigger output.

    Using my current BH overheal % my actual healing would be 11 833 074 , more than 10% buff.
    If you communicate with healers " focus on me" this might be very powerful.
    Yep, it will certainly be powerful in a few situations. We will lose some of the benefits of BH associated with +DMG gimmicks (JinRohk/Horridon it was common to see 7figure ShotRs, meaning massive heals), since it will simply be the SoI proc instead of a dmg%. But, SOI is far more frequent AND steady, whereas BH only proc'd off of Melee (small heal/fast speed), CS(small heal/medium speed), and ShotR(large heal/medium speed).

    I just wish that, rather than being stuck with the glyph as ON or OFF for the entire fight, we would see the glyph give us a toggle for turning the effect on and off, based on fight conditions, raid needs, stability, etc. It would be far more interactive and fun.

    On a fight like HC DA, we could absolutely not use the new BH in it's current iteration, since we rely on those monster SOI ticks when tanking 3+ adds at the start. But, later on when tanking just massives, we don't need those SOI's hardly at all; would be a great way to help provide raid utility/stability when we can "afford" it.

    Will post the suggestion on forums once they're back live, but we'll see what happens, I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  7. #107
    It's PTR. They won't let Prot Paladins oom themselves after a few minutes into the fight.
    Don't you worry.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Homsel View Post
    I just tested with a "push button like crazy" rotation, keeping most abilities with mana costs on cd (e.g. taunt, DivProt, AS... but not Cleanse, HoF, HoP, Salv, Sac, Hoj, Blinding Light). In addition I did not use any fillers without mana cost (SS, lvl90 talent, AD, GoAK) to get the most mana per GCD output. I managed finally to go oom after 6:30 minutes! I particular went to Darnassus in order to get a low latency (80 ms in my case). Under those circumstances I still doubt anyone will have to deal with this problem under normal conditions. You can manage to do so but you really have to work toward 0 mana, e.g. using Cleanse on cd.
    I used SoT on quite a few fights in 5.0 and I always went oom quickly when doing the rotation. It is as simple as that, if you click your buttons you go oom fast. As I mentioned, took me 2 min 30 seconds to go oom without using anything other than the core rotation, no cleanse, interrupt, cds, hands, sol, taunt etc, and I am not even that close to haste cap. Using taunt, SoL, rebuke and binding light, I managed to oom in 24 seconds.
    In a more realistic tanking environment, expect to be oom within 2 minutes, probably 1 min 30 seconds.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuzzfizzle View Post
    It's PTR. They won't let Prot Paladins oom themselves after a few minutes into the fight.
    Don't you worry.
    Considering they've done worse things I'd not be surprised if they didn't revert these changes.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homsel View Post
    I just tested with a "push button like crazy" rotation, keeping most abilities with mana costs on cd (e.g. taunt, DivProt, AS... but not Cleanse, HoF, HoP, Salv, Sac, Hoj, Blinding Light). In addition I did not use any fillers without mana cost (SS, lvl90 talent, AD, GoAK) to get the most mana per GCD output. I managed finally to go oom after 6:30 minutes! I particular went to Darnassus in order to get a low latency (80 ms in my case). Under those circumstances I still doubt anyone will have to deal with this problem under normal conditions. You can manage to do so but you really have to work toward 0 mana, e.g. using Cleanse on cd.

    Do not compare this to the situation in 3.x, when we almost only relied on Spiritual Attunement. In those days a prot pally, who didn't get healed by someone else went oom in seconds. I'm still more concerned with blizzard's ambivalent attitude towards stat distribution on our tier set for prot.
    Exactly that seems to be the case for some devs.
    Using only CS, J and Fillers, I was OOM in 2 minutes, 6 mil damage on live without SoI @ 41% unbuffed haste. The fact that a number of veteran Prot Palas are posting similar results only suggests that it looks like you're not playing optimally.

    The BH glyph change is meh. It's likely not going to have much of a difference to 25 man prot palas, as most of the guys I know who tank 25 man raids don't use it all that often anyway - it DOES/DID however, play a big role in 10 man progress - it will be interesting to see how that goes now. Currently, as far as my experience goes, I've seen that BH heals multiple raiders, not just one while SoI still healed myself. I'll be interested to see if switching from multiple raiders and tank to a slightly higher single target smart heal on one raider OR the tank works out to be a more useful way of doing things, though I'm feeling it may prove worse than current, I still feel I'd rather those heals were going on myself for the most part, possibly in some situations I'd consider using it.

    The GC change is not that bad really. It will have a slight negative effect to single target tanking dps/HoPo generation, and a massive buff on multi-target tanking dps/HoPo generation. I can't really see this doing much more than making the 10%dodge/22.5% parry sweet spots slightly more attractive - but when you have 2 ugly things and one is more attractive than the other, it's still ugly.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuzzfizzle View Post
    It's PTR. They won't let Prot Paladins oom themselves after a few minutes into the fight.
    Don't you worry.
    This is a given, but I think the fear is HOW they'll solve the problem.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Homsel View Post
    I just tested with a "push button like crazy" rotation, keeping most abilities with mana costs on cd (e.g. taunt, DivProt, AS... but not Cleanse, HoF, HoP, Salv, Sac, Hoj, Blinding Light). In addition I did not use any fillers without mana cost (SS, lvl90 talent, AD, GoAK) to get the most mana per GCD output. I managed finally to go oom after 6:30 minutes! I particular went to Darnassus in order to get a low latency (80 ms in my case). Under those circumstances I still doubt anyone will have to deal with this problem under normal conditions. You can manage to do so but you really have to work toward 0 mana, e.g. using Cleanse on cd.
    You may have missed this that I posted earlier:

    CS, J, X = 1800 + 3000 + 4200(filler of choice), totalling 9000 mana for 3 GCDs, or 3.0 seconds. Rounding it up to 3.5 sec, that's still 2571 mana per sec OUT, while only 1800 mana per sec IN.

    Next "round" is CS, X, J: different order, but same total expenditure.

    Then we have CS, X, X: 1800 + 4200 + 4200 = 10200 mana, 2914 MPS OUT, still only 1800 MPS IN.

    Taunts, interrupts, utility spells, and even defensive cooldowns all ALSO cost mana, some VERY expensive (Rebuke @ 7020 mana).


    Put simply: Mana OUT > Mana IN = OOM. The amount of time that takes to occur will depend on your 1) GCD, affected by haste and 2) personal reaction time. If I recall, you linked an armory earlier and had relatively low haste, which could be part of why you're taking a while to go OOM. It could also be #2, in that you're quite simply not hitting your buttons fast enough, which is the tip of a different problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    You're a tank, you're supposed to like tank stats. If not you should be playing DPS.

    If the rotation is so shit without a full haste build then the rotation needs to be redesigned. Tanks ignoring tank stats and stacking a DPS stat is silly. It's okay if haste is useful, but when it's optimal that's just dumb.
    You're supposed to like the stats your class/role is designed to use. My main was a Bear Druid since vanilla until my current guild asked me to raid on my Paladin, I watched their stats shift from dps stats to tank stats and then back to dps stats over the past 8 and a half years. It doesn't have to be an avoidance stat to be a "tank" stat. Frankly I think at this point they should dump tank gear entirely and balance all the tanks around dps gear the way they did with Druids and Monks and just be done with it.

    Now to my question, the battle healer change, wasn't the glyph changed in 5.3 to never heal the Paladin and now this change makes it so Seal of Insight will no longer heal us as well? If so, how is anyone seeing this as a good change? We lose all our self healing except the ability to WoG. Hopefully I'm just misunderstanding this change...

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Homsel View Post
    I just tested with a "push button like crazy" rotation, keeping most abilities with mana costs on cd (e.g. taunt, DivProt, AS... but not Cleanse, HoF, HoP, Salv, Sac, Hoj, Blinding Light). In addition I did not use any fillers without mana cost (SS, lvl90 talent, AD, GoAK) to get the most mana per GCD output. I managed finally to go oom after 6:30 minutes! I particular went to Darnassus in order to get a low latency (80 ms in my case). Under those circumstances I still doubt anyone will have to deal with this problem under normal conditions. You can manage to do so but you really have to work toward 0 mana, e.g. using Cleanse on cd.

    Do not compare this to the situation in 3.x, when we almost only relied on Spiritual Attunement. In those days a prot pally, who didn't get healed by someone else went oom in seconds. I'm still more concerned with blizzard's ambivalent attitude towards stat distribution on our tier set for prot.
    Looking at my recent log i've used :
    Judg 85 * 5
    AS 46 * 7
    HW 27 * 5
    CS 80 * 15
    HW 8 * 3

    TOTAL : 2106 % of mana used over 7 min = 4.48% mana / sec
    Guarded by light is 6% every 2 sec

    Over 10 sec i will spend 44.8% mana. i will regen 30% (not counting anything else i might be using)

    I don't want to rain on your parade but that's not enough. (and i'm not even looking at all of the abilities)

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Now to my question, the battle healer change, wasn't the glyph changed in 5.3 to never heal the Paladin and now this change makes it so Seal of Insight will no longer heal us as well? If so, how is anyone seeing this as a good change? We lose all our self healing except the ability to WoG. Hopefully I'm just misunderstanding this change...

    Battle-healer change in 5.3 only reduced its numbers, nothing changed with how it worked. The new change makes your SoI heal the raid instead of a % of your melee damage. What this mean is that if you actually use the glyph you are gonna do more raid healing now than before.

    All in all, the battle-healer change is not really on my care list. I often do not use it on progression as I found it vastly overrated, so nothing changed for me really. If I actually need the raid healing on a fight, I can now glyph BH and get even more raid healing than before.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Yep, it will certainly be powerful in a few situations. We will lose some of the benefits of BH associated with +DMG gimmicks (JinRohk/Horridon it was common to see 7figure ShotRs, meaning massive heals), since it will simply be the SoI proc instead of a dmg%. But, SOI is far more frequent AND steady, whereas BH only proc'd off of Melee (small heal/fast speed), CS(small heal/medium speed), and ShotR(large heal/medium speed).

    I just wish that, rather than being stuck with the glyph as ON or OFF for the entire fight, we would see the glyph give us a toggle for turning the effect on and off, based on fight conditions, raid needs, stability, etc. It would be far more interactive and fun.

    On a fight like HC DA, we could absolutely not use the new BH in it's current iteration, since we rely on those monster SOI ticks when tanking 3+ adds at the start. But, later on when tanking just massives, we don't need those SOI's hardly at all; would be a great way to help provide raid utility/stability when we can "afford" it.

    Will post the suggestion on forums once they're back live, but we'll see what happens, I suppose.
    well tbh i think that's the point.
    They want us to use glyphs based on situation, not "i put this in at the start of 5.0 and will never take it out".
    This actually makes it so that you need some grasp on the fight to figure out if it's worth it or not (unlike current live version) while also possibly buffing the output.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    well tbh i think that's the point.
    They want us to use glyphs based on situation, not "i put this in at the start of 5.0 and will never take it out".
    This actually makes it so that you need some grasp on the fight to figure out if it's worth it or not (unlike current live version) while also possibly buffing the output.
    I guess that was my point; fights are so dynamic now that it's tough to have something as dramatic/radical to your rotation/survival as BH that won't grossly/wildly swing in the fight.

    If you use BH2.0 (3.0?) in HC DA, you die in phase 1, even tho it'd be great in phase 2. If you use it on HC Council, you'll swing wildly when tanking FA, but will assist greatly with Spirits and Kazrajin.

    That's why I was saying the ability to toggle on/off would make it useful/fun and skillful. Sure you may not remove it, but how you use it is still situational. And really, having a glyph "toggled off" is paramount to removing it in the first place (with the added penalty of NOT replacing it with a differernt one).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  18. #118
    The Lightbringer Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homsel View Post
    PS:Thanks Valarius for this excellent addition to this discussion.
    The only way you would take offence at what I said is if it applies. Struck a nerve maybe?

    I already posted my own results.

    The fact you are using spells such as taunt and dprot and not using the mana-free ones (ie, a GCD where you are gaining mana) and reckon you don't go oom until the 6min30 mark whilst my own, firefly's and nairobi's and many others' tests avoiding everything but damaging attacks (and even using mana-free spells) is why I am led to believe you're bullshitting. Do you want us all to make videos? You are not a special Prot Paladin who has random mega mana regen; either you're doing something wrong or you're full of shit - the math doesn't support your story.
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I guess that was my point; fights are so dynamic now that it's tough to have something as dramatic/radical to your rotation/survival as BH that won't grossly/wildly swing in the fight.

    If you use BH2.0 (3.0?) in HC DA, you die in phase 1, even tho it'd be great in phase 2. If you use it on HC Council, you'll swing wildly when tanking FA, but will assist greatly with Spirits and Kazrajin.

    That's why I was saying the ability to toggle on/off would make it useful/fun and skillful. Sure you may not remove it, but how you use it is still situational. And really, having a glyph "toggled off" is paramount to removing it in the first place (with the added penalty of NOT replacing it with a differernt one).
    Personally i feel like that would be the best solution, but also the OP one.

  20. #120
    My paladin is going to swirl down the toilet if this goes live. Im not going back to some slow ass shit rot, better things to do with my evenings than waiting on 4.5 second cds.

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