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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    @Tomathan
    It seems you disagree with almost anything others write.
    I disagree with many. But mostly u can bring things i complain about together under one point:
    Whining about MageLvL90.
    When i come to this forum i see 2 things:
    A) Question about Gear/DPS/rota etc.
    B) Posts where someone whines because we dont get an change to something.
    In the later u see the usual behaviour. A normal discussing with pro and cons. I like to read such things. And then somewhere between page 3 and 15 comes the hammer. Mostly i see the same persons come into a thread, take the topic and rise a bridge to the lvl90-talents and complain about them. Now this thread is ruined.
    Thats the things i complain about.
    U see the last 3 months the same arguments coming out again and again and again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    What's your point? That the devs shouldn't do anything for Mage class until 6.0 and then they should tweak t90s a little to untie them from mana management, but not rework them completely so the class doesn't lose complexity and add some resource to manage to every spec?
    I dont have a plan for reworking the 90s. All i do is saying that the plans other have are not good because of fact a/b/c.
    Thats called a discussion.
    People a say: They could do abc.
    People b say: They wouldn't do that because of def.
    People a says: But def has nothing to do with that because...
    People b says: It has. Just dont look at color and size, look at mechanic and core. In the heart they are the same.
    If u believe to people a or b is your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    GC already said that they don't plan any Warlock-scale overhauls for the next expansion, Hunters and Rogues need the most work to differentiate their specs and no class or spec will receive a new secondary resource if it doesn't have that already. One can argue that Arcane already has almost a resource in a form of Arcane Charges so there's still a possibility, but it is fairly certain that GC doesn't have any new Fire/Frost resources on the table for 6.0.
    They dont need a new ressource. Bring mana back. It was fine before 5.0. And even that is not necessary. You could add deep to other things. Look at shamans. Do they have an ressource? No. But they have more deep in the rotation then we. As said above: I dont bring up better things or say the current ones are good. All i say is that the wanting of some people is a little bit to much.
    And beside that: No one knows what 6.0 brings or brings not. Not even GC at the time he tweetet that. He also said that they dont share plans before they are near the finish.

  2. #202
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    We don't even NEED a Warlock-style overhaul, but we do need fixes that aren't just number tweaks at this point, for ALL three specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Whining about MageLvL90.
    I love when everyone confuses "discussion" with "whining".

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    When i come to this forum i see 2 things:
    A) Question about Gear/DPS/rota etc.
    B) Posts where someone whines because we dont get an change to something.
    In the later u see the usual behaviour. A normal discussing with pro and cons. I like to read such things. And then somewhere between page 3 and 15 comes the hammer. Mostly i see the same persons come into a thread, take the topic and rise a bridge to the lvl90-talents and complain about them. Now this thread is ruined.
    Again, it's not whining to talk about needing something. If your power went out, and you were upset about it so you called an electrician to fix it, should I say you were whining to him about not having electricity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Thats the things i complain about.
    U see the last 3 months the same arguments coming out again and again and again.
    That's nice. No one cares.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    I dont have a plan for reworking the 90s. All i do is saying that the plans other have are not good because of fact a/b/c.
    Thats called a discussion.
    I could barely understand your first sentence, but that's definitely not a discussion; that's you talking and telling people what's up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    People a say: They could do abc.
    People b say: They wouldn't do that because of def.
    People a says: But def has nothing to do with that because...
    People b says: It has. Just dont look at color and size, look at mechanic and core. In the heart they are the same.
    If u believe to people a or b is your opinion.
    That's a bit more discussion than your "discussion" example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    They dont need a new ressource. Bring mana back. It was fine before 5.0.
    EL OH FREAKING EL. NO IT WAS NOT. Mana was stupid for Spell DPS (except specs like Arcane where it's actually a 'part' of it) [we all know it's not about managing mana, but we do know that mana is involved in SOME form]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    And even that is not necessary.
    So why suggest something to immediately say "Oh, they don't need to"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    You could add deep to other things.


    I'm assuming you mean Lich King style Deep Freeze? I'd love if that made a return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Look at shamans. Do they have an ressource? No. But they have more deep in the rotation then we.
    Oh so you didn't mean deep freeze... You used deep to mean a "deeper" rotation... okay...
    Resource or no, I don't get your point. No one ever said we HAD to have a resource...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    As said above: I dont bring up better things or say the current ones are good. All i say is that the wanting of some people is a little bit to much.
    By a "little too much" you mean "removing the bullshit mechanics that shouldn't exist and making Fire/Arcane not braindead specs and allowing Frost to be competitive at high gear levels"? Yeah, we're asking for the moon to have our class to be not boring/broken completely. Hell, I even acknowledge Fire to be overpowered on any fight with a damage buff (or damage taken debuff) in addition to having high gear/crit levels. I WANT Fire to be nerfed of that, and, subsequently, buffed at the first tier when we don't have gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    And beside that: No one knows what 6.0 brings or brings not. Not even GC at the time he tweetet that. He also said that they dont share plans before they are near the finish.
    We're well aware of that, but we can confirm one thing: The L90 talents aren't going to be staying for 6.0

    Also, lastly, THIS IS A DISCUSSION WHERE WE ALL TALK ABOUT MAGE THINGS AND DISCUSS THEM. SAYING WHAT WE'D LIKE IN 6.0 IS PART OF DISCUSSION.

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  3. #203
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    I dunno how I feel about brining mana back. It was never really there to begin with. You just made sure to pop gems / potions when they were up and hit Evo when you went to X% mana. It went a little bit deeper than that I guess. What with trying to end fights at 0 mana, ensuring you got the max number of big spells out for better DPS.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    And the result? Frost (and fire) would be the easiest specs in the game. We dont have resources to manage. We dont have stacks to manage. We dont manage anything. All we have to do is keeping our lvl90 up. If we loose that the specs would be nobrainer at all.
    @Tomathan, none of what you quoted pertains to Fire... the only thing that changes for Frost from current game to my suggestion is elimination of stacks. Now go pick a DPS class that isn't easy to play. I play most of them and there isn't one that is not easy to preform your rotation.

    Lets look at rogue and the changes for QoL Blizzard gave them and compare that to Mage. Rogues only have to spend one energy to get Slice and Dice up, from then on their finishing moves refresh SnD fully. Rogues use combo points, they now have ability to Redirect those combo points to another target.

    SnD to rogues is like our 90 talents, it buffs their DPS but they only need worry about it once, at the start of each encounter. We on the other hand need to manage that 90 talent a minimum of once every 60 seconds. No fucking skill added with 90 talents here, hell I have my WeakAuras moan when it expires to remind me "oh hit evo".

    Redirect lets them move their resource, so by target switching they loose no damage. Aka if they have 3 combo points on Marli and enpower switches to Frost King, with redirect they are instantly on Frost King at full potential. Whereas a Frost mage isn't at that point until a minimum of 3 GCD's with the assumption they can hold any FoF or BF procs.

    That 3 stack exists solely because of PvP and the stupid burst a Frost Mage can plow into a Deep Freeze target, it is a means employed by Blizzard to reign in that burst damage on target swaps in PvP. With the current known PTR change to Frost Mastery, Blizzard has addressed burst into a DF in PvP, there exists zero reason why PvE Frost Mages should continue to be penalized by the 3 stack.

    I have no frigging clue how you think 3 stack adds any form of management. Are you seriously going to tell us the rare times your procs exceed the debuff cooldown it adds depth to our gameplay?

    As to "we don't have resources", no shit Sherlock! I even stated in my post (part you did not quote) that I believe with 6.0 they will introduce a resource to Mages. By looking at the other Classes, you can see Blizzard likes that mechanic for classes in the game. Adding a resource to Mages and 90 talent removal are tied to one another.

  5. #205
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Now go pick a DPS class that isn't easy to play. I play most of them and there isn't one that is not easy to preform your rotation.
    Answer: all the dps classes are easy to play. Learn rotation, execute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    I love when everyone confuses "discussion" with "whining".
    There's a difference here?

    This thread sums it up up..
    Complaints.. complaining.. complaining comparisons to other classes... whining about complaints.

    I try to read and catch up after work.. but it's just too much.. I just want to facepalm.

    Tomathan basically called it, as I did last week before people went QQRAGE.
    Posts where someone whines because we dont get an change to something.
    In the later u see the usual behaviour. A normal discussing with pro and cons. I like to read such things. And then somewhere between page 3 and 15 comes the hammer. Mostly i see the same persons come into a thread, take the topic and rise a bridge to the lvl90-talents and complain about them. Now this thread is ruined.
    Thats the things i complain about.
    U see the last 3 months the same arguments coming out again and again and again.
    even though the grammar is hard on the eyes..


    I'm following the others and peacing out of these forums. People who still want my advice can still PM me, I'll take time to reply.
    I just can't handle it anymore... it's like reading a blog my girlfriend wrote on "omg i suck at wow and this is why".
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  6. #206
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    You realize that is what this thread is for, correct? It's the dumping grounds for peoples opinions, complaints, concerns, and arguments. This thread exists so that the standard complaints can be kept out of other more productive threads.

    What did you expect? Lol.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    Answer: all the dps classes are easy to play. Learn rotation, execute.



    There's a difference here?

    This thread sums it up up..
    Complaints.. complaining.. complaining comparisons to other classes... whining about complaints.

    I try to read and catch up after work.. but it's just too much.. I just want to facepalm.

    Tomathan basically called it, as I did last week before people went QQRAGE.

    even though the grammar is hard on the eyes..


    I'm following the others and peacing out of these forums. People who still want my advice can still PM me, I'll take time to reply.
    I just can't handle it anymore... it's like reading a blog my girlfriend wrote on "omg i suck at wow and this is why".
    Lol, what hypocrisy.

    I can't stand all complaining on these forums, yet all I do is whine about people complaining.

    This is a mage free for all thread. A place to DISCUSS issues we feel are important. No one made you come in to this thread and certainly no one solicited you for your comments.

  8. #208
    Lol, what hypocrisy.

    I can't stand all complaining on these forums, yet all I do is whine about people complaining.

    This is a mage free for all thread. A place to DISCUSS issues we feel are important. No one made you come in to this thread and certainly no one solicited you for your comments.
    Couldn't have said better.

  9. #209
    I have one minor tweak suggestion for fire. I honestly think that our class, like many, needs a complete overhaul to help differentiate the specializations, but whatever.

    Here's my idea.

    Smoldering: instant cast, 45 sec cooldown, duration 2.5 seconds. While the target is smoldering, every pyroblast hit adds a stack of smoldering and refreshes it's duration.
    Combustion: instantly deals x damage per stack of smoldering and x damage per stack over 10 seconds.

    Balance it around the expectation of four pyro hits and good to go. Removes all the stupid randomness from fire's major DPS cooldown and helps make balancing the specialization much more reasonable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I feel if you cannot describe the playstyle of a specialization in one word or a short phrase, something is wrong. How many specializations in WoW can be summarized in this way? How many would be the same if you did? When you think about it this way, the mage problem really comes to light.
    Last edited by Jarion; 2013-07-13 at 12:51 AM.
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  10. #210
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarion View Post
    Also, I feel if you cannot describe the playstyle of a specialization in one word or a short phrase, something is wrong. How many specializations in WoW can be summarized in this way? How many would be the same if you did? When you think about it this way, the mage problem really comes to light.
    (I like your suggestion btw; sounds interesting, but I wanted to quote this piece instead to reply to just it)


    Arcane: Immobile mana cannon
    Fire: High roller "crit-er"
    Frost: Absolutely terrible at everything (in current 5.4)

    Done.

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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarion View Post
    I have one minor tweak suggestion for fire. I honestly think that our class, like many, needs a complete overhaul to help differentiate the specializations, but whatever.

    Here's my idea.

    Smoldering: instant cast, 45 sec cooldown, duration 2.5 seconds. While the target is smoldering, every pyroblast hit adds a stack of smoldering and refreshes it's duration.
    Combustion: instantly deals x damage per stack of smoldering and x damage per stack over 10 seconds.

    Balance it around the expectation of four pyro hits and good to go. Removes all the stupid randomness from fire's major DPS cooldown and helps make balancing the specialization much more reasonable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I feel if you cannot describe the playstyle of a specialization in one word or a short phrase, something is wrong. How many specializations in WoW can be summarized in this way? How many would be the same if you did? When you think about it this way, the mage problem really comes to light.
    Except that it doesn't remove all the RNG. You could get 4 pyros with shit luck and have an 8x combustion, or you could get super lucky and get 9, ending up with an 18x combustion. The upper and lower ends are closer together, but there's still RNG. Hot Streak needs to go if fire is going to be free from RNG, and I don't see that happening.

  12. #212
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huevos View Post
    Except that it doesn't remove all the RNG. You could get 4 pyros with shit luck and have an 8x combustion, or you could get super lucky and get 9, ending up with an 18x combustion. The upper and lower ends are closer together, but there's still RNG. Hot Streak needs to go if fire is going to be free from RNG, and I don't see that happening.
    Or change it to ONE fucking critical like other classes, or "chance on Fireball/Scorch". Putting RNG on RNG (like "chance on criticals") is what makes SHIT mechanics (anyone remember that healer trinket in DS that only had a CHANCE to proc from crits? It was shit. WHY? BECAUSE CHANCE ON CHANCE IS SHIT)

    Of course, Pyro would need to be nerfed if on one crit, but it'd be WAY more balanced and easily tweakable rather than nerfing CM.

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  13. #213
    somebody said this in another thread, but capping fire crit at like 35-40% then making any extra crit after that increase damage to pyro= less rng i guess. would be weird but fun and lots of dps.

  14. #214
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    somebody said this in another thread, but capping fire crit at like 35-40% then making any extra crit after that increase damage to pyro= less rng i guess. would be weird but fun and lots of dps.
    It would only be weird at first because it's outside the norm. Inferno Blast was weird, but it found a certain use to us.

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  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarion View Post
    Here's my idea.

    Smoldering: instant cast, 45 sec cooldown, duration 2.5 seconds. While the target is smoldering, every pyroblast hit adds a stack of smoldering and refreshes it's duration.
    Combustion: instantly deals x damage per stack of smoldering and x damage per stack over 10 seconds.
    A 3 second duration would've been better, but I see your point - to not let Fire just hardcast pyros. Still might be possible under Time Warp and SPA trinket proc (never bothered to know what is the Pyro cast time under TW). Smoldering makes PoM mandatory though.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Huevos View Post
    Except that it doesn't remove all the RNG. You could get 4 pyros with shit luck and have an 8x combustion, or you could get super lucky and get 9, ending up with an 18x combustion. The upper and lower ends are closer together, but there's still RNG. Hot Streak needs to go if fire is going to be free from RNG, and I don't see that happening.
    I'm not sure I follow. My experience has been when I use my AT/POM/ macro I get four back to back pyros, five if I'm lucky. That would be 4-5 stacks of smoldering. Nine instant pyros would give nine stacks of smoldering. Granted I JUST hit 39% crit, so maybe 9 pyros in a row is a thing that happens? Eventually? I still feel like a design like this would really help narrow the delta of our major dps cooldown without completely recreating the specialization.

    Edit: Ah, I see the confusion. I used too many Xs. I probably should have written, "Combustion: instantly deals x damage per stack of smoldering and y damage per stack over 10 seconds." But maybe "Combustion: instantly deals x damage and y damage per stack of smoldering over 10 seconds." is better. It is closer to how it works now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    A 3 second duration would've been better, but I see your point - to not let Fire just hardcast pyros. Still might be possible under Time Warp and SPA trinket proc (never bothered to know what is the Pyro cast time under TW). Smoldering makes PoM mandatory though.
    Isn't it already for fire?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    somebody said this in another thread, but capping fire crit at like 35-40% then making any extra crit after that increase damage to pyro= less rng i guess. would be weird but fun and lots of dps.
    Or just give HU a flat chance to proc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Or change it to ONE fucking critical like other classes, or "chance on Fireball/Scorch". Putting RNG on RNG (like "chance on criticals") is what makes SHIT mechanics (anyone remember that healer trinket in DS that only had a CHANCE to proc from crits? It was shit. WHY? BECAUSE CHANCE ON CHANCE IS SHIT)

    Of course, Pyro would need to be nerfed if on one crit, but it'd be WAY more balanced and easily tweakable rather than nerfing CM.
    I have written about it before, but fire is really like randomness, depending on randomness, depending on randomness. It's awful. level one, crits build our ignite damage; level two, crits for HU procs; level three, pyros must crit for our only DPS cooldown. It's like crit importance cubed.
    Last edited by Jarion; 2013-07-13 at 01:31 PM.
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  17. #217
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Your first and third point are exactly the same because combustion is based on ignite. However, ignite is built by any spell hit, not only crits.

    I agree that it's slightly convoluted, but it's really not as complicated as you make it sound.

  18. #218
    The first point is about ignite damage in general. I know how ignite works, so I know that if you're not critting it's pretty negligible. The third point is that our only DPS cooldown is once again dependent on crit. If you get a string of pyros that don't crit, your DPS cooldown will not, "work."

    Let's try it another way. Besides just the increased damage of the critical strike itself, how many damage increasing mechanics does the fire specialization have that are dependent on critical strikes? Three. Ignite, hot streak, combustion. It's not about it being complicated, it's about an over reliance on randomness and the over importance of a stat that leads to scaling problems.
    Last edited by Jarion; 2013-07-13 at 02:16 PM.
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  19. #219
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    But all three things stem from the same crit and go into the same thing. HS->ignite->combustion. One chain does it all. I agree that we could use a different model that doesn't rely so much on one secondary stat. What we could use is a boost in power to the other secondary stats to allow us to strike a balance. This can be done by introducing a way to make crits more predictable which we already have in Inferno Blast, but IB unfortunately didn't live to its expectations, or rather, got diminished now in ToT Heroic gear.

  20. #220
    Mechagnome Frost1129's Avatar
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    Maybe we could solve the scaling issue by making the spells scale in a different way.

    Have FB / Scorch / IB scale really bad with SP / Int . But they start with very high base damage.

    Pyro would be the exact opposite. It's terrible at the start, but scales ridiculously well with SP, Int, and Crit (maybe even haste to replace FB as a hardcast? lolz)

    So you'd have your DPS mainly coming from FB / Scorch / IB. Ignite and Combustion would be a decent portion. But lack of crit means less pyros.

    As you get higher levels of crit and SP / Int, your damage shifts from FB / Scorch / IB heavy to Pyro heavy. More of your casts are Pyros which are scaling better. Ignites / Combustions should do around the same damage if tuned correctly. Essentially, the replacement of FB / Scorch dmg with Pyro should lead to a linear DPS increase as gear goes up (Or whatever DPS increase keeps us at a top-tier DPS level).

    It'd be like a standard chemical equilibrium. http://textbook.s-anand.net/wp-conte...011/03/7_2.png

    Replace Concentration with % DPS contribution, and time with ilvl. C or D = Pyro contribution, A or B = FB / Scorch / IB contribution to DPS

    You can still keep the double crit bullshit of Pyro that they seem to love so much. The numbers just need to be done better, and CM probably needs to be removed.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-07-13 at 03:39 PM.

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