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  1. #81
    I've been trying to keep relatively positive with regards to 5.4 and mages, but ZomgDPS brings up a good point in the Welly thread, and combining that with the most recent Hunter post I feel it's getting harder to stay on positive side of things regarding 5.4 QoL changes. They are doing a lot of changes to tier talents for other classes, what exactly is preventing them from altering our lvl90 tier?

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    How does it help with Quills or persistent Dots? Its runtime is 4 seconds. Not more nor less. It is not really better in PvE then it is now. The change imo is only for PvP.
    Quote Originally Posted by nickseng View Post
    Which is why I was asking. It seemed like some people were thinking the 15% reduction was on ALL the time.
    15% less damage is 15% less damage. Yeah you may be healing less, but right away your healers won't be stressing out.

    I'm not saying it's a significant change against it, I'm just saying it HELPS.

    In a similar example, would you rather:

    - Lose 70% of your HP and heal it back over 6 seconds
    or
    - Lose 59.5% of your HP and heal it back over 6 seconds

    In both scenarios, you will also take additional damage over the 6 seconds. I think you know the better choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    I've been trying to keep relatively positive with regards to 5.4 and mages, but ZomgDPS brings up a good point in the Welly thread, and combining that with the most recent Hunter post I feel it's getting harder to stay on positive side of things regarding 5.4 QoL changes. They are doing a lot of changes to tier talents for other classes, what exactly is preventing them from altering our lvl90 tier?
    Because it's a "core rotation" ability that we never wanted, I'm guessing.

    Honestly, we should get every Mage that wants new L90 abilities to make a massive thread on DD forums because this is outright bullshit.

    "Our changes for L90 Talents are too big for 5.4..."
    "WARLOCKS GET A COMPLETE OVERHAUL ON ALL THEIR L90 TALENTS DESPITE BEING IN A GREAT SPOT OVERALL ATM"

    Like seriously, that's fucking bullshit hypocriticism if I ever saw it.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  3. #83
    Because it's a "core rotation" ability that we never wanted, I'm guessing.

    Honestly, we should get every Mage that wants new L90 abilities to make a massive thread on DD forums because this is outright bullshit.

    "Our changes for L90 Talents are too big for 5.4..."
    "WARLOCKS GET A COMPLETE OVERHAUL ON ALL THEIR L90 TALENTS DESPITE BEING IN A GREAT SPOT OVERALL ATM"

    Like seriously, that's fucking bullshit hypocriticism if I ever saw it.
    I 100% agree. I played extensively in beta and was one of those people who posted on the forums regarding how unfun they were. the fact they remain maybe 90% unchanged is ridiculous when warlocks are given a complete 90 tier overhaul. Also, not to mention shamans getting HTT baseline- change is change after all.

    I feel many people avoid the official forums because of the garunteed lynch mob waiting for them by just about every other class; the mage hate there is extreme. Our dps masks our issues, and until people learn to look past the thought that numbers displayed on recount equal fun, we'd gain a lot more support from a wider range of the wow communty.

  4. #84
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    1"WARLOCKS GET A COMPLETE OVERHAUL ON ALL THEIR L90 TALENTS DESPITE BEING IN A GREAT SPOT OVERALL ATM"
    Warlocks got an overhaul because their talents are OP as often was cried about in this forum.
    We dont get an overhaul because our talents are in the point of balancing fine. QoL-Changes in this size will not come in a patch.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Warlocks got an overhaul because their talents are OP as often was cried about in this forum.
    We dont get an overhaul because our talents are in the point of balancing fine. QoL-Changes in this size will not come in a patch.
    So I guess a shield that instagibs your DPS is balanced fine.

    I guess a ring that's tiny that restricts your movement completely is balanced fine.

    I guess over 99% of Fire Mages taking Invocation is fine.

    Totally seems legit, bro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crysie View Post
    I feel many people avoid the official forums because of the garunteed lynch mob waiting for them by just about every other class; the mage hate there is extreme. Our dps masks our issues, and until people learn to look past the thought that numbers displayed on recount equal fun, we'd gain a lot more support from a wider range of the wow communty.
    Which is sad because Mages aren't even #1 atm. (If anyone fucking posts a Top 100 parses or Council of Elders, I will hate you for life)
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  6. #86
    Only KJC is OP. MF is situational while AV is just down right bad. Now with these changes EACH of these talents provide a special benefit in some form or another.

    While I agree QoL changes such as this would not come in a patch, if Blizzard decides to overhaul one class' 90 talents, they should at least do the same for another class that has been complaining about them since beta.

  7. #87
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    So I guess a shield that instagibs your DPS is balanced fine.

    I guess a ring that's tiny that restricts your movement completely is balanced fine.

    I guess over 99% of Fire Mages taking Invocation is fine.

    Totally seems legit, bro.
    First ours are not OP like Warlocks.
    RoP and IW have their niches. There are no fights right now where u can really use them but thats not the fault of the talents.
    And second: Show me any talenttier of any class where u really find 3 different equal DPS-Spells/Boosts whatever which are real equal. U wouldn't find one. The mainthinking here is again: Dont compare Warlock Lvl90s and Mage lvl90s.
    They are for a different part of the mechanic.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by crysie View Post
    While I agree QoL changes such as this would not come in a patch, if Blizzard decides to overhaul one class' 90 talents, they should at least do the same for another class that has been complaining about them since beta.
    /discuss over right there. Seriously.

    Since fucking beta we've been waiting for some good news. Two tiers go by and only Invocation gets a bit more tolerable while the other two only get worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    First ours are not OP like Warlocks.
    I mean, Warlock had 1 dead talent (AV) and 1 actually decent talent (MF). We have 2 dead talents (RoP and IW) [RoP only used by Arcane]

    Regardless, just because ours aren't OP doesn't mean they shouldn't fuck us over for 3 tiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    RoP and IW have their niches. There are no fights right now where u can really use them but thats not the fault of the talents.
    Oh, okay. Point WELL proven, good sir! I guess we should blame the devs for making fights that are interesting and mechanically hard, instead of brute force hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    And second
    You mean third but okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Show me any talenttier of any class where u really find 3 different equal DPS-Spells/Boosts whatever which are real equal. U wouldn't find one. The mainthinking here is again: Dont compare Warlock Lvl90s and Mage lvl90s.
    Equal DPS wasn't the issue. YOU made it the issue. I was only 'comparing' because you said "WARLOCK ONES ARE OP", which they aren't.
    Again, I'm just saying if they have time for their beloved 'new' class, they should have time for Mages, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    They are for a different part of the mechanic.
    Because that should matter at all.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  9. #89
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    You guys should go play warlocks or something.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/forums/277-Warlock



    I'd like to know how our talents are dead. IW is great.
    Stop complaining and actually play the game, you'll see how fine it is.
    If the talents were really that bad, they would be changed long ago. They are obviously doing their job.

  10. #90
    Which is sad because Mages aren't even #1 atm. (If anyone fucking posts a Top 100 parses or Council of Elders, I will hate you for life)
    Exactly, or how about the anecdotal swarm of people getting destroyed in ~2 seconds by a mage. In terms of PvE, I'm starting to worry if any change at all would happen come 6.0. Conceptionally we are flawed, arcaiac and in need of updating.

    Good dps, different colored bolts will most likely prevent us from receiving any of the treatment hunters and rogues will be getting next expansion. It is not a rogue/ hunter issue, it is a syndrome of being a pure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have a warlock, and I play it regularly. It is one of the most fun experiences I've had with this game since I've started in early BC.

    I'd like to know how our talents are dead. IW is great.
    Stop complaining and actually play the game, you'll see how fine it is.
    If the talents were really that bad, they would be changed long ago. They are obviously doing their job.
    That is exactly the point, because they theoretically perform numbers equal to each other, they are "doing their job". However, they are not enhancing to the class. They are restrictive and unforgiving, as the new talent system is designed other wise.

    I'll give you an example. My main right now is a disc priest. My 90 talents allow me to swap either or depending on the SITUATION that calls for best. Our raid is taking heavy damage during rampage on Meg? Let me switch to Divine Star. On Primordius there's AoE damage going out and everyone is spread across the room, plus I can help kill adds? Let me choose Halo. See the trend? My priest's talents provide fluidity, game enhancing affects to my play in each situation I encounter. Plus they have awesome spell animations to enjoy.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    I'd like to know how our talents are dead. IW is great.
    This alone makes your point null and void. If IW was fine, more people would use it, yet NO ONE DOES (except in PvP) because it's shit (because it's the only ability that CAN be used in PvP...)

    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    If the talents were really that bad, they would be changed long ago. They are obviously doing their job.
    Yeah, okay. I guess that's why they ignore the crisis of Crit with Fire (which has been an issue since LICH KING, you know, TWO EXPANSIONS AGO) and Frost's problem capping two stats (which is "REALLY BAD" and SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED ALREADY)
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  12. #92
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by crysie View Post
    Our raid is taking heavy damage during rampage on meg? Let me switch to Divine Star. There's AoE damage going out and everyone is spread across the room, plus I can help kill adds? Let me choose Halo. See the trend? My priest's talents provide fluidity, game enhancing affects to my play in each situation I encounter. Plus they have awesome spell animations to enjoy.
    Tell me about your talentchoice in the 60er or in the 75er tier talents?
    If u have only one target as mage u choose LB (beside as frost u have high haste and follow the High Hastetheory), if u have 2-5 targets u choose NT. If u must bomb at tortos u choose Frostbomb.
    Again: Dont compare one tier to another only because the same number stands in the front. At least think about the idea behind these tier. Then choose 2 which are equal of the idea and then compare.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    ...Yeah, okay.
    They changed our "Run and Cast-Tier" in 5.2 as it was broken.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    They changed our "Run and Cast-Tier" in 5.2 as it was broken.
    Define "our", because you're in a Mage forum and I don't think you're talking about Mages.


    Unless you're talking about our Bombs, which was a way to increase our DPS... in the worst way possible.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  14. #94
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Define "our", because you're in a Mage forum and I don't think you're talking about Mages.
    Lets recap:
    From the patchnotes of 5.2
    "Blazing Speed is now a level-15 talent, replacing Scorch."
    "Ice Floes now has a 45-second cooldown (was 1 minute) and its duration has been increased to 15 seconds (was 10 seconds)."

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Lets recap:
    From the patchnotes of 5.2
    "Blazing Speed is now a level-15 talent, replacing Scorch."
    "Ice Floes now has a 45-second cooldown (was 1 minute) and its duration has been increased to 15 seconds (was 10 seconds)."
    You could have said "scorch" but okay.

    It actually was scrapped purely because of Scorchweaving, so yeah...
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Tell me about your talentchoice in the 60er or in the 75er tier talents?
    If u have only one target as mage u choose LB (beside as frost u have high haste and follow the High Hastetheory), if u have 2-5 targets u choose NT. If u must bomb at tortos u choose Frostbomb.
    Again: Dont compare one tier to another only because the same number stands in the front. At least think about the idea behind these tier. Then choose 2 which are equal of the idea and then compare.

    - - - Updated - - -


    They changed our "Run and Cast-Tier" in 5.2 as it was broken.

    The bombs really aren't the same as the priest spells. They are essentially the same exact spell. They all function in the same way. Just one is more single target DPS, and the other is better on multiple targets. We don't have a tier that compares for the priest 90 talents in a PvE raid scenario.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    You guys should go play warlocks or something.
    I'd like to know how our talents are dead. IW is great.
    Stop complaining and actually play the game, you'll see how fine it is.
    My lvl 90 talent provides nothing to my gameplay. I used the singular for talent because IW and RoP don't exist. IW is great in what scenario?

    I guess you're playing another game where you are just way better than me and finding ways to work IW and RoP into your play, cause I sure as hell never change from Invo. But I'll try my best to "actually play the game." whatever the fuck that means.

  17. #97
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    The bombs really aren't the same as the priest spells. They are essentially the same exact spell. They all function in the same way. Just one is more single target DPS, and the other is better on multiple targets. We don't have a tier that compares for the priest 90 talents in a PvE raid scenario.
    I won't say that we have better looks of this spells so pls dont someone come out with this argument.
    LB and NT are nearly equal thats right. But they have differences and so thek go into different niches.
    FB is something other.
    So i dont see the big difference in the priestspells. They are different kinds of AE.
    Other fact: He was speaking about Healing. I dont think comparing Healer and DDs is in any way equal. If we look for example at shadows u will see that their they will nearly allways take Halo because it brings the most DMG.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    LB and NT are nearly equal thats right. But they have differences and so thek go into different niches.
    Lol no, they're not. It's significant enough to the point where LB is better on almost every fight this tier due to the following:

    - Easier to maximize DPET because of longer tick time
    - Always global capped (not too vital to Frost, but helps on Arcane/Fire)
    - Significantly higher DPS on single target

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    FB is something other.
    Read: Shit/PvP/Dungeons&CM talent

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    So i dont see the big difference in the priestspells. They are different kinds of AE.
    Yeah, FUN spells that aren't "pick your poison" talents but rather "pick the fun ability that does AoE damage and/or healing". PS: Halo hits like a TRUCK (both damage and healing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Other fact: He was speaking about Healing. I dont think comparing Healer and DDs is in any way equal. If we look for example at shadows u will see that their they will nearly allways take Halo because it brings the most DMG.
    Because the class actually matters. Halo is a fun ability anyways, as is DS and Cascade.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  19. #99
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    One major reason for Invo is that because one gcd for 60s buff is the smart choice.

    Yeah, okay. I guess that's why they ignore the crisis of Crit with Fire (which has been an issue since LICH KING, you know, TWO EXPANSIONS AGO) and Frost's problem capping two stats (which is "REALLY BAD" and SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED ALREADY)
    Fire's been good. What spec were you in ICC? Just because it's not #1 by 100000% doesn't mean it's bad.


    I didn't know stat capping crit counted as 2 stats for frost.. Please enlighten me more about this.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    One major reason for Invo is that because one gcd for 60s buff is the smart choice.
    No, Invo is tolerable because it doesn't massively restrict your movement (RoP) or DPS (IW).

    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    Fire's been good. What spec were you in ICC? Just because it's not #1 by 100000% doesn't mean it's bad.
    ... Are you serious right now? Did you even READ what I fucking typed? I'm talking about the problem with Fire being super-tied to Crit dependency (e.g., shit beginning of expansion, overpowered end of expansion)

    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    I didn't know stat capping crit counted as 2 stats for frost.. Please enlighten me more about this.
    I guess you're ignoring Haste completely?


    TBH I feel like your entire post is a troll or are you actually this oblivious to Fire/Frost's issues as well as the L90 talents?
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

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