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  1. #1

    Mage Free-For-All Thread?

    With the closure of the "5.4" discussion thread I think we lost something that I viewed as a place of growing importance - A place to dump all of our "off-topic" and more "colorful" mage discussion. There are people here who have seriously strong opinions and want to make them heard. I'd prefer this to be in a FFA thread rather than a real discussion thread. Instead of every thread that is attempting serious discussion ( like the IV thread(s), which is (are) boss-status <3 ) getting derailed or having the discussion diluted. It went up and down, sometimes having some decent discussions, sometimes just being a ground for people to argue about things until they are blue in the face. But it was kinda nice to be able to choose what kind of mage talk I wanted to expose myself to.

    I think as long as those types of things just aren't inside of a "5.4 discussion" thread there isn't a problem.


    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Yeah, I'm fine with this, if it means less derailment in other threads.

    Carry on.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    Yeah, I'm fine with this, if it means less derailment in other threads.

    Carry on.
    Yeah, that's the intention. Instead of random shit-posts ina discussion thread or trolls asking why our lv90 talents are so bad in new thread they can just come here / there.

    I'm not entirely sure how it'll get started like the other one was. Probably once there are a few more changes to the PTR for people to freak out over.

  4. #4
    Should do some discussion, fire at least late crit requirement is not so big.
    I am from China, can you understand me?
    Last edited by Sina; 2013-07-09 at 04:47 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sina View Post
    Should do some discussion, fire at least late crit requirement is not so big.
    I am from China, can you understand me?
    Are you trying to say that gearing for crit come next tier might not be optimal because we'll have so much crit when rolling HS / HU? This might be true.

    I was thinking something similar for Frost, where Haste is so plentiful that mages might be going back to Int gems (or going for Mage Armor)

  6. #6
    I'll start my bit off by going off on a rant. It's not a new rant, it's actually one I've been ranting about since WotLK. In any case, I would like to talk to you today about Critical Strikes. Crit is a bonus, it's basically free damage that the game randomly throws out at you. The numbers are fun and they make you feel super powerful. The problem with it? Unless you are at 0% Crit chance or 100% Crit, then it's impossible to balance. The only way to tweak around it is when it's either guaranteed to happen or when it's guaranteed to not. Any variance between is simply out of the hands of the player. Even at 99% Crit, you can mathematically go on a streak of several spells in a row without a Crit. Did you play poorly? Probably not. Can you ever out play the random number generation? Again, unless it's at 100% chance, then no, no you can't.

    I remember back on H LK progression, when my Fireball was sitting at a nice 85% Crit...I could still go a full Valk phase without a single Crit going off. Now, generally speaking, no Crits over 10 seconds during a 15 minute fight is statistically small, but for progression it's extremely important. I can pad meters with 100923090239029% chance to crit on ghouls, but if i can't get them when it actually matters, then I look like a hinderance.

    That being said, as anyone can attest, it is STILL impossible to properly balance the spec around Crit. It indirectly hinders both other secondary stats. Now Crit also gives you Haste through the set bonus, and the general point of Crit also boosts Mastery. Without Crit, the other two stats are weak and ineffective.

    They have to find a way to move out of Crit favoring Fire and ultimately move it towards Mastery. Make Ignite increase DoT and Crit Strike damage. Do SOMETHING to make the spec balanced at all levels of play and give control of a Mage's DPS back to the Mage.

  7. #7
    High Overlord Henzington's Avatar
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    I couldn't agree more Swizzle. I have had swing as wide as 200k or more in my ignite from my opening rotation. This is terrible for 2 reasons first it sucks to not have reliable damage when you need it like say a diffusion add during Lei Shen intermissions and second it isn't balanced at all if you can have insanely high burst this is completely broken for any kind of balance in a pvp environment when I can in theory fire off 6 or more pyoblasts back to back that or 4 just noncrits that hit like a wet noodle by comparsion. My issue has been making fire rely on critting to do damage as opposed to frost or arcane which have static proc rates will always lead to balance issues.

  8. #8
    In fact, we may not need so many fatal blow, we can put these attributes to become proficient in using heap, increases damage by DOT to improve the DPS, although we're burning is composed of Pyroblast generated, but we often need when superimposed lit is not so high the fatal blow, we need more be proficient in.
    We have done some research, critical strike and master is not proportional to growth to achieve maximum DPS, when a fatal blow more high, proficient in return will be relatively large, a fatal blow to the demand will gradually become smaller.
    This is a regular phenomenon, but we have no way to accurately identify it.

  9. #9
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    I'm hesitant on this one, wouldn't moving it towards mastery create more reliance on the DoT? Isn't there already frustration about class homogenization, mages like warlocks on the playing field?

    I do agree that I dont like the wild swings too.
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  10. #10
    I've hated the crit-centric fire play ever since they introduced it in WoTLK. They tried "normalizing" crit ratings back then with a stealth crit-scaling for Pyroblast! procing (IIRC it was quite complicated to figure out and model) and it failed. CM is a failure. Crit-centric models just don't work.

    I would really like our specs to stop feeling so damn similar too. Why are they all proc based?

    Fire could be proc based, just not off crit.

    Make Frost similar to Ele where you have some DPS cooldowns, a filler, and things to manage (Frost / Earth shock / Ele blast)

    Dunno about arcane. I kind of like its rotation thing it has going. If they remove AM as a proc and make it an interesting spec I'd be happy with that.

    More on Arcane. I was thinking that for 6.0 it'd be really interesting if they made Arcane spec have three types of spells:

    Mana Dumps, Mana Generators, and Mana Users.

    Mana dumps would be like your max stack AB. Large damage, huge mana drain and therefore un-sustainable. Make mastery feed into these (more mana = better mana dumps)

    Mana Generators could be a new spell? or AM, usable on the move.

    Mana Users would be anything else - A.E., maybe Abarr type stuff.

    Let the spec start out with 0 mana (or not call it mana. Call it arcane energy ). You ramp up with Mana Generators and Mana Users. Have it be a constantly drained resource.

    This sounds a lot like Rage, actually. I'd be cool with Arcane being like a Rage mechanic where you're trying to balance high Energy to keep your Dump spells high but not droping too low so that you can't cast your Mana User spells when needed.

    Arcane charges could be worked in there someway. Maybe they act as an Overflow sink. So at max energy, you begin building charges. You can then blow them for different effects. Buffing your Dump spells, causing your Generators to generate more (or make AM cast on the move) or remove the cost of mana users? Or lower it. I dunno. So you get into a system where you want to keep your energy high, but not sit on that for too long. And where jump building -> dumping -> building is punished by lack of flexibility / power granted by overflow into Charges. Charges could be permanent until used or not. Two resources to manage!
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-07-09 at 06:37 PM.

  11. #11
    High Overlord Henzington's Avatar
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    I wont mind a complete redesign of mage spec similar to what they did with locks in this xpack but I doubt this would happen until the next xpack.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiry View Post
    I'm hesitant on this one, wouldn't moving it towards mastery create more reliance on the DoT? Isn't there already frustration about class homogenization, mages like warlocks on the playing field?

    I do agree that I dont like the wild swings too.
    Well, there are only two DoT casters really, in the form of Locks and Spriests (Boomkins can go either way, but their nukes hit much harder than their DoTs), but ultimately the Fire Mastery, along with the Frost and Arcane ones, need a bit of a change. If you want to ask; yes, I do have some ideas.

    Step 1: Make Ignite a Fire passive instead of the Mastery. Your damaging Fireball, Pyroblast, and Scorch spells burn the target for an additional 40% of the damage dealt over 4 seconds.

    Step 2: In addition to its current effects, Inferno Blast now refreshes the duration of your Ignite spell on the current target.

    Step 3: *NEW* Master of Elements. Your Fireball, Pyroblast, and Scorch spells have an X% increased chance to critically strike on targets afflicted by your Mage bombs. (basically scraps CM and replaces it with something much easier to balance since it's now additive and not multiplicative)

    Step 4: *NEW MASTERY* Critical Mass. Increases the critical strike bonus damage of all your spells by X%.

    Boom. There. Changed the spec up enough to put more damage back into the control of the player without making it feel too much like a Warlock. Cheque please!

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    Well, there are only two DoT casters really, in the form of Locks and Spriests (Boomkins can go either way, but their nukes hit much harder than their DoTs), but ultimately the Fire Mastery, along with the Frost and Arcane ones, need a bit of a change. If you want to ask; yes, I do have some ideas.

    Step 1: Make Ignite a Fire passive instead of the Mastery. Your damaging Fireball, Pyroblast, and Scorch spells burn the target for an additional 40% of the damage dealt over 4 seconds.

    Step 2: In addition to its current effects, Inferno Blast now refreshes the duration of your Ignite spell on the current target.

    Step 3: *NEW* Master of Elements. Your Fireball, Pyroblast, and Scorch spells have an X% increased chance to critically strike on targets afflicted by your Mage bombs. (basically scraps CM and replaces it with something much easier to balance since it's now additive and not multiplicative)

    Step 4: *NEW MASTERY* Critical Mass. Increases the critical strike bonus damage of all your spells by X%.

    Boom. There. Changed the spec up enough to put more damage back into the control of the player without making it feel too much like a Warlock. Cheque please!
    MoE? Ignite on hit? Crit mass = Damage? Dem old talents <3

    I don't think those really solves any of problems though, yeah? Giving a flat crit bonus will be the same as CM now. It'll just make the lower end of fire viability a bit lower while making crit cap pretty quickly for higher end mages.

    The problem with crit isn't so much that we need to crit once to have it be worth while, it's that we need to double crit to make it worth it's stat value. This makes it so you always need really high levels of crit to see any real gains from the spec. Double crit = pyro! needs to be changed.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-07-09 at 06:47 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    MoE? Ignite on hit? Crit mass = Damage? Dem old talents <3

    I don't think those really solves any of problems though, yeah? Giving a flat crit bonus will be the same as CM now. It'll just make the lower end of fire viability a bit lower while making crit cap pretty quickly for higher end mages.

    The problem with crit isn't so much that we need to crit once to have it be worth while, it's that we need to double crit to make it worth it's stat value. This makes it so you always need really high levels of crit to see any real gains from the spec. Double crit = pyro! needs to be changed.
    Multiplicative and additive don't work like that really. Simply adding...let's say 25% Crit chance to a target with a Mage bomb is easier to balance than multiplying your chance to crit by 1.25. The reason for me moving to additive instead of multiplicative is that it's easier to balance, requires less rating to get to the high end, and makes lower tiers feel more powerful while adding a linear increase to higher tiers.

    Further, by buffing all other damage, I feel some of the importance of the spec would move away from Hot Streaks and it would go back to being a huge DPS boost instead of core mechanic. Lastly, I think my changes make Mastery more attractive and the balance between it and Crit more dynamic.

    I could be wrong, thus discussion!!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    Multiplicative and additive don't work like that really. Simply adding...let's say 25% Crit chance to a target with a Mage bomb is easier to balance than multiplying your chance to crit by 1.25. The reason for me moving to additive instead of multiplicative is that it's easier to balance, requires less rating to get to the high end, and makes lower tiers feel more powerful while adding a linear increase to higher tiers.

    Further, by buffing all other damage, I feel some of the importance of the spec would move away from Hot Streaks and it would go back to being a huge DPS boost instead of core mechanic. Lastly, I think my changes make Mastery more attractive and the balance between it and Crit more dynamic.

    I could be wrong, thus discussion!!
    I wasn't clear, sorry. When I said adding a crit bonus % would be the same as CM now I meant the same problem would exist - Low tier mages would feel like fire is bad, high geared mages would be having way too much crit. I understand the difference between additive and multiplicative values, haha.

    I'd definitely support moving away from HS being the core damage mechanic.

  16. #16
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    I wasn't clear, sorry. When I said adding a crit bonus % would be the same as CM now I meant the same problem would exist - Low tier mages would feel like fire is bad, high geared mages would be having way too much crit. I understand the difference between additive and multiplicative values, haha.

    I'd definitely support moving away from HS being the core damage mechanic.
    Someone (I can't remember who; I think it was in the 5.4 thread) posted a suggestion to make CM give a Fire Mage 40% crit (obviously changeable), and any Crit Chance the Mage has (from base, on gear, AB, MA, temp buffs, etc) would increase Crit Damage %. This way, we wouldn't scale exponentially (well, except for Combustion/Ignite) and retardedly by the end of the expansion.

    Regardless, I am ALL for divorcing Fire from Crit! (and for bringing back PvE Deep Freeze for Frost )

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  17. #17
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    Good ideas. I am very interested to see what they'll do for the stat ballooning we are seeing now. The curve is wildly out of control. It feels like the more our spells are based on curve, the more variance we'll see.
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  18. #18
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiry View Post
    Good ideas. I am very interested to see what they'll do for the stat ballooning we are seeing now. The curve is wildly out of control. It feels like the more our spells are based on curve, the more variance we'll see.
    I can't help but think this is on purpose. I am not sure why, unless they are pushing for a number squish. I remember them saying that stats got out of control in ICC because there were more tiers than intended with Heroic gear being introduced. They didn't like the insane crit and haste levels people were getting, and that Fire specifically wasn't intended to spam Pyros. Yet, here we are 2 expansions later, and things are even more bloated. We have several additional tiers of item levels and stats are going to be off the wall. They had to have foreseen this.

  19. #19
    High Overlord Henzington's Avatar
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    They cant give the more tiers excuse this time honestly its just poor foresight by giving mages critical mass rather then just a flat crit bonus or nothing at all like how fire was in cata. Mages in my guild were making bets on when we would get nerfed as soon as the mop ptr.

  20. #20
    I'm wondering what if there was a Fire-specific mechanic that made the spec have not statistical critical chance, but the stable one? If you have 34% crit chance you still can have 10 non-crit spells in a row despite that if you fired an infinite number of Fireballs, then exactly one third of them would've crit. So what if there was a mechanic that tracks your critical strikes and grants your next spell 100% critchance if you haven't critted for 100%/crit% times in a row?

    Example.

    A mage has 34% crit chance.
    - Mage casts Fireball - no crit - mage gains a buff Heat 34%,
    - Mage casts Fireball - critical strike - mage loses Heat buff,
    - Mage casts Fireball - no crit - mage gains a buff Heat 34%,
    - Mage casts Fireball - no crit - mage gains a buff Heat 68%,
    - Mage casts Fireball - no crit - mage gains a buff Heat 100%,
    - Mage casts Fireball - guaranteed critical strike - mage loses Heat buff

    Such a mechanic could help out low-geared Fire mages and protect high-end geared ones from out-of-luck streaks. Inferno Blast could increase the Heat meter by some fixed or mastery-dependant value despite having a 100% crit chance. What do you think?

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