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  1. #1

    [5.4 Lore Spoilers] Yshaarj Speculation

    I know this could be covered in the audio leak thread, but I figured it might be worth separating.



    So, holy shit. For those not aware, Y'Shaarj references two things previously mentioned (quite ominously) by the Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron: the "dark forest" and Ny'alotha.

    "You will rest in Ny'alotha..." - Y'Shaarj

    "In the land of Ny'alotha there is only sleep...
    In the sleeping city of Ny'alotha walk only mad things.
    Ny'alotha is a city of old, terrible, unnumbered crimes..." - Puzzle Box

    The mentions of the "dark forest" are much more cryptic (if such a thing is possible), and I don't find them as intriguing, but you can seek 'em out if you're interested.

    So is the Ny'alotha talk just two opinions on the quality of a bed in breakfest? Or perhaps, could it be the mysterious origin place of the Old Gods? The latter is interesting, but rather hard to believe. Harbinger Skyriss seems to claim that "they" are as "countless as the stars". If we are to believe he is referring to the Old Gods, well...it makes their place of origin all the more formidable.

    It's possible that Ny'alotha is an Old God "city", or at least a stronghold of some kind. Perhaps that is where they are imprisoned, and perhaps it is the place they retreat to once they are "destroyed". We know for almost certain killing the Old Gods is impossible, or very nearly so. Y'Shaarj himself is evidence of this, as he was partially resurrected by Garrosh's forces, despite supposedly being slain by the Titans themselves. As well, Yogg-Saron speaks to players from beyond the "grave" through the Puzzle Box, and C'thun has shown a number of signs of a possible return, including quests in the revamped Silithus that had involved his presence and even his Eye, but were ultimately left out of the game.

    Come on, lads. Lets us have a good ol' lore discussion.

  2. #2
    High Overlord KennyBoi3's Avatar
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    We're going to run out of Old Gods to kill in Azeroth. Might as well start inventing Old Gods in new worlds and start predicting a bigger role for the Draenei in future expansions.

  3. #3
    My guess is that Ny'alotha is a sunken city filled with old god madness, no way to know for sure.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by KennyBoi3 View Post
    We're going to run out of Old Gods to kill in Azeroth. Might as well start inventing Old Gods in new worlds and start predicting a bigger role for the Draenei in future expansions.
    This is, the whole "other old gods" business was introduced way back in Burning Crusade. It definitely isn't a retcon/lazy lore writing when they say that the Old Gods' reach is beyond Azeroth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    My guess is that Ny'alotha is a sunken city filled with old god madness, no way to know for sure.
    Can't take these things for face value, ya know. That's what's glorious about the Old Gods. So much to speculate about.

  5. #5
    The Patient Octan's Avatar
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    "In the land of Ny'alotha there is only sleep...
    In the sleeping city of Ny'alotha walk only mad things.
    Ny'alotha is a city of old, terrible, unnumbered crimes..."

    Timeless Isle?

  6. #6
    "When you walk among the black forest, you will see..."
    "You will rest in Ny'alotha..."

    I suspect that the black forest line refers to the Nightmare, which is currently corrupting the Emerald Dream and growing in power and influence. A hint at an Emerald Dream expansion in the future, when we will get the opportunity to see the corruption first hand, I think.

    Ny'atloha is, I believe, a city of the Old Gods that was built during their reign on Azeroth. The earliest Old God lore refers to black citadels that the Titans destroyed - Ny'alotha sounds like one of these, cast down into the depths of the ocean, or buried deep beneath the earth and sunk during the Sundering. A WoW counterpart to the sunken city of R'lyeh in Lovecraft mythology, where that most significant of eldritch horrors, Cthulhu, lies dreaming and waiting.

    Ny'alotha sounds like N'Zoth's city based on what's been revealed about him so far. The titans could not defeat him, only bury him, and he is connected both with the Nightmare as its creator, and in some way with the deep ocean, meaning he's likely pulling the strings of Azshara as well. The sunken city makes a likely place for him to be located.

    I suspect he'll ultimately wind up being revealed as the most powerful of the Old Gods.

  7. #7
    Dreadlord DrMcNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    "When you walk among the black forest, you will see..."
    "You will rest in Ny'alotha..."

    I suspect that the black forest line refers to the Nightmare, which is currently corrupting the Emerald Dream and growing in power and influence. A hint at an Emerald Dream expansion in the future, when we will get the opportunity to see the corruption first hand, I think.

    Ny'atloha is, I believe, a city of the Old Gods that was built during their reign on Azeroth. The earliest Old God lore refers to black citadels that the Titans destroyed - Ny'alotha sounds like one of these, cast down into the depths of the ocean, or buried deep beneath the earth and sunk during the Sundering. A WoW counterpart to the sunken city of R'lyeh in Lovecraft mythology, where that most significant of eldritch horrors, Cthulhu, lies dreaming and waiting.

    Ny'alotha sounds like N'Zoth's city based on what's been revealed about him so far. The titans could not defeat him, only bury him, and he is connected both with the Nightmare as its creator, and in some way with the deep ocean, meaning he's likely pulling the strings of Azshara as well. The sunken city makes a likely place for him to be located.

    I suspect he'll ultimately wind up being revealed as the most powerful of the Old Gods.
    I suspect an Emerald Dream expansion. Since Wrathion's new soundfile suggests that the 'threat' is not here yet because he needs to do something else to prepare the world.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Octan View Post
    "In the land of Ny'alotha there is only sleep...
    In the sleeping city of Ny'alotha walk only mad things.
    Ny'alotha is a city of old, terrible, unnumbered crimes..."

    Timeless Isle?
    No the Timeless Isle is kinda like the Isle of Giants in terms of its makeup. He references a city and from what I have seen there are no cities on the Timeless Isle. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe there was an underwater city of evil in Lovecraft which Blizz has already pulled references from. Just a thought but we may see a dark, evil city under water. Just a thought.

    I have no idea what he could be referencing but it sounds like there is something hidden on or in Azeroth that is darker and more mysterious than anything we have yet to encounter. Plus, two Old Gods are now referencing it?! There is some really freaky stuff going on in that land.

    I am thrilled that we get to at least hear Y'shaarj whispering. For one, he has, for me, the most interesting past of any Old Gods to date. He has come as close to annihilation as an Old God could possibly get is still whispering? There is so much about the old Gods that we do not know and I am so excited about the prospect of learning even a fraction more.

    Also, his voice is really well done. Seems to me like the creepiest Old God voice we have heard yet. Sounds kinda like the Sha have but more devious and powerful.
    Last edited by Sills; 2013-07-10 at 04:57 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sills View Post
    I am thrilled that we get to at least hear Y'shaarj whispering. For one, he has, for me, the most interesting past of any Old Gods to date. He has come as close to annihilation as an Old God could possibly get is still whispering? There is so much about the old Gods that we do not know and I am so excited about the prospect of learning even a fraction more.
    Agreed. I love Yogg-Saron and am really looking forwards to learning more about N'Zoth, but Y'Shaarj has so far had the most far reaching immediate influence of any Old God we've seen, spreading his breath, the Sha, all throughout an entire continent and arguably becoming the true villain of the entire expansion.

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord Shampro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sills View Post
    No the Timeless Isle is kinda like the Isle of Giants in terms of its makeup. He references a city and from what I have seen there are no cities on the Timeless Isle. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe there was an underwater city of evil in Lovecraft which Blizz has already pulled references from. Just a thought but we may see a dark, evil city under water. Just a thought.

    I have no idea what he could be referencing but it sounds like there is something hidden on or in Azeroth that is darker and more mysterious than anything we have yet to encounter. Plus, two Old Gods are now referencing it?! There is some really freaky stuff going on in that land.

    I am thrilled that we get to at least hear Y'shaarj whispering. For one, he has, for me, the most interesting past of any Old Gods to date. He has come as close to annihilation as an Old God could possibly get is still whispering? There is so much about the old Gods that we do not know and I am so excited about the prospect of learning even a fraction more.

    Also, his voice is really well done. Seems to me like the creepiest Old God voice we have heard yet. Sounds kinda like the Sha have but more devious and powerful.
    I've had a theory for a while that the Old Gods are not directly linked to Azeroth, only a fraction of thier existance lies within the earth. They dont appear to die even when they dont have a Body ( Yshaarj). I feel like Azeroth is like a briedge for them to exist. As thier true indentity lies within another realm.

    (GOD I LOVE THE OLD GODS)

  11. #11
    The Old Gods are said to come from another realm and have to be summoned into the plane that Azeroth exists in. You can find a group of undead arakkoa attempting to summon an Old God in Shadowmoon Valley, and there's the aforementioned Harbinger Skyriss who claims their influence stretches across the stars. Blizzard has also mentioned in CDev questions that the Titans have fought the Old Gods before Azeroth.

    Where they come from is a mystery - I think it's an entirely different universe altogether, a realm distinct from the WoW universe that comprises the material, elemental, Emerald Dream, and Twisting Nether planes. That's why they're 'outside the cycle.'

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    "When you walk among the black forest, you will see..."
    "You will rest in Ny'alotha..."

    I suspect that the black forest line refers to the Nightmare, which is currently corrupting the Emerald Dream and growing in power and influence. A hint at an Emerald Dream expansion in the future, when we will get the opportunity to see the corruption first hand, I think.

    Ny'atloha is, I believe, a city of the Old Gods that was built during their reign on Azeroth. The earliest Old God lore refers to black citadels that the Titans destroyed - Ny'alotha sounds like one of these, cast down into the depths of the ocean, or buried deep beneath the earth and sunk during the Sundering. A WoW counterpart to the sunken city of R'lyeh in Lovecraft mythology, where that most significant of eldritch horrors, Cthulhu, lies dreaming and waiting.

    Ny'alotha sounds like N'Zoth's city based on what's been revealed about him so far. The titans could not defeat him, only bury him, and he is connected both with the Nightmare as its creator, and in some way with the deep ocean, meaning he's likely pulling the strings of Azshara as well. The sunken city makes a likely place for him to be located.

    I suspect he'll ultimately wind up being revealed as the most powerful of the Old Gods.
    The Emerald Nightmare, to my knowledge, is still reeling from the loss of its master (Xavius). Its trying to seek out a new "Nightmare Lord" according to some stuff in "Dawn of the Aspects". I doubt it would be a significant force for a while.

    As for the rest: I would be inclined to agree. The Puzzle Box seems to want to connect Ny'alotha to the sea with some of his quotes, and the similarities between it and R'lyeh are pretty striking.

    At first I was kind've put off by the idea of N'Zoth being more powerful than the rest, but now I'm not so sure. It could be that they are drawing a direct parallel to Cthulhu, and N'Zoth is the Old Gods' trump card. And much how, technically, Cthulhu is not an Elder God (as far as I'm aware of), it's possible that N'Zoth is not a true Old God, but rather something like a prodigal successor.

    After all, there is something very nasty chewing on L'ghorek in Vashj'ir.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Malygos The Spellweaver View Post
    The Emerald Nightmare, to my knowledge, is still reeling from the loss of its master (Xavius). Its trying to seek out a new "Nightmare Lord" according to some stuff in "Dawn of the Aspects". I doubt it would be a significant force for a while.
    Not immediately, but with the green dragons retreating from the Dream in the wake of Ysera's 'demotion' (also from Dawn of the Aspects) and the Dream's defense being left in the hands of druids, it's inevitable that the mortal races will be called upon to go there. I think a Legion expansion next is likely, and frankly that would be good - time enough for everyone to forget about the Old Gods in the wake of all that Y'Shaarj's power wrought, while the Nightmare grows strong enough to become a serious threat.

    As for the rest: I would be inclined to agree. The Puzzle Box seems to want to connect Ny'alotha to the sea with some of his quotes, and the similarities between it and R'lyeh are pretty striking.

    At first I was kind've put off by the idea of N'Zoth being more powerful than the rest, but now I'm not so sure. It could be that they are drawing a direct parallel to Cthulhu, and N'Zoth is the Old Gods' trump card. And much how, technically, Cthulhu is not an Elder God (as far as I'm aware of), it's possible that N'Zoth is not a true Old God, but rather something like a prodigal successor.

    After all, there is something very nasty chewing on L'ghorek in Vashj'ir.
    In Lovecraft mythos, Cthulhu is the 'high priest' of the Old Ones, whom he serves. In the grand scheme of things he is not especially powerful compared with other beings, but he is significant in that the rise of his city heralds the awakening of all the Old Ones and the end of humanity's rule. Hence him being the mascot of the whole mythos.

    The only issue I feel arises is that N'Zoth would work as an enemy both in an Emerald Dream expansion and in a Great Seas expansion that would deal with Azshara - he would make the perfect final villain for both of those, and I'm not sure which one should be tackled first - presumably the Dream since he's not personally present there as far as we know, and then the Great Seas one afterwards where we track him down to Ny'alotha and finally deal with him face to face.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    "When you walk among the black forest, you will see..."
    "You will rest in Ny'alotha..."

    I suspect that the black forest line refers to the Nightmare, which is currently corrupting the Emerald Dream and growing in power and influence. A hint at an Emerald Dream expansion in the future, when we will get the opportunity to see the corruption first hand, I think.

    Ny'atloha is, I believe, a city of the Old Gods that was built during their reign on Azeroth. The earliest Old God lore refers to black citadels that the Titans destroyed - Ny'alotha sounds like one of these, cast down into the depths of the ocean, or buried deep beneath the earth and sunk during the Sundering. A WoW counterpart to the sunken city of R'lyeh in Lovecraft mythology, where that most significant of eldritch horrors, Cthulhu, lies dreaming and waiting.

    Ny'alotha sounds like N'Zoth's city based on what's been revealed about him so far. The titans could not defeat him, only bury him, and he is connected both with the Nightmare as its creator, and in some way with the deep ocean, meaning he's likely pulling the strings of Azshara as well. The sunken city makes a likely place for him to be located.

    I suspect he'll ultimately wind up being revealed as the most powerful of the Old Gods.
    I believe that the whole emerald nightmare was already taken care of and everything was fine and dandy within the emerald dream, happened sometime during or prior to cataclysm hence why Ysera and all those druids weren't there anymore, story line wise I actually think it happened before the shattering but after Arthas was dealt with, being referenced in the book the Shattering getting mentions of the nightmare and it being dealt with.

    As for the old gods being destroyed, I believe it was possible for them to be destroyed but doing so would kinda fuck up the planet, or did they retcon that?

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Moon Blade's Avatar
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    I suspect Nyalotha is the deepest, most corrupt part of the Nightmare where all the baddest of the bad old god followers and Yshaarj himself lie. It seems to make sense since spirits rest in the Emerald Dream, like green dragons and night elves, or fallen ancients, why not the corrupted portions contain the spirits of fallen old gods and their creations? Rift of Aln was merely contained, they didn't close it off.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrandron View Post
    I believe that the whole emerald nightmare was already taken care of and everything was fine and dandy within the emerald dream
    But it wasn't. Malfurion and Tyrande killed Xavius and pushed back the corruption to its source, but never went to the source. Ysera warned that because she lost her power dealing with whatever corruption remains in the Dream is up to the druids entirely, since her power has been reduced to an equal of theirs rather than a greater superior.
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    Not immediately, but with the green dragons retreating from the Dream in the wake of Ysera's 'demotion' (also from Dawn of the Aspects) and the Dream's defense being left in the hands of druids, it's inevitable that the mortal races will be called upon to go there. I think a Legion expansion next is likely, and frankly that would be good - time enough for everyone to forget about the Old Gods in the wake of all that Y'Shaarj's power wrought, while the Nightmare grows strong enough to become a serious threat.
    It's quite possible the Legion expansion would have some sort of tie-in with the Old Gods, perhaps not in a major way, like how Skyriss was in BC. After the players finish off what remains of Sargeras, we get Hour of Twilight 2: Electric Boogaloo.

    And yeah, I kinda forgot my Cthulhu mythos :X I could recall the Old Ones putting a lot of faith into him, I just couldn't remember why. I thought he was the end, rather than the means to said end.

    And they seriously need some emergency publicity repair on N'Zoth before we finally face him. As it stands, for me, Old God ranking in terms of awesomeness: Yogg-Saron > Y'Shaarj > C'thun > N'Zoth. N'zoth is supposedly so important, and the cause for so much shit, like Deathwing's corruption. But we barely get to see any of it. All we get during Cataclysm is the occasional "by the way there's this guy, he's an old god".

    He didn't even have the common decency to appear during the Hour of Twilight. I'm pretty sure that was why Deathwing lost. He just couldn't stand the egg on his face, seeing that empty seat in the audience with a piece of paper on it reading "reserved for daddy".

  17. #17
    High Overlord Dunker's Avatar
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    A few things:

    We have fought pieces of C'thun and Yogg'Saron, near where they were imprisoned correct? I think it would have been difficult for N'Zoth to participate, considering he was taking the fight to us from his prison. Deathwing was always on his own, I think N'Zoth had hoped his powers as Earthwarder would be more formidable, maybe even his burst from the land would have released him? I'm unsure.

    I'm also curious as to how the Emerald Dream and Nightmare work. In my eyes, the South Seas expansion could have covered quite a bit of it, I think. My general content and raid schedule went as such:

    Initial: Final troll raid, where we fight a fallen (corrupted?) Troll King. Tomb of Sargeras, demons. Underwater Naga Raid
    Second: On our way to, or at our arrival at Ny'alotha Malfurion comes and seeks our aid in the Emerald Dream. According to him, we must push N'Zoth from there before he can truly be defeated
    Third: Ny'alotha

    Sadly, I don't know enough about lore to really know how those realms function and their conjunction with N'Zoth. I agree with an above poster though, N'Zoth would need an entire expansion of some true "He's coming for you" type things for it to feel epic to me. On the other hand, though, an entire city decorated in Old God fashion reeks of epic, and creepy.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrandron View Post
    I believe that the whole emerald nightmare was already taken care of and everything was fine and dandy within the emerald dream, happened sometime during or prior to cataclysm hence why Ysera and all those druids weren't there anymore, story line wise I actually think it happened before the shattering but after Arthas was dealt with, being referenced in the book the Shattering getting mentions of the nightmare and it being dealt with.
    Nope! Malfurion and his allies killed the Nightmare Lord leading the corrupted forces of the Nightmare, and cleared out a lot of the corruption prior to the Cataclysm, but during Cata we saw a number of quests indicating that the Nightmare has begun to spread through the Dream once again. We've also gotten word that the Nightmare is trying to find a new Lord (hope it's Malorne!) to lead it. So it's definitely still active.

    As for the old gods being destroyed, I believe it was possible for them to be destroyed but doing so would kinda fuck up the planet, or did they retcon that?
    It's implied that what's going on in Pandaria right now, with the essence of Y'Shaarj spreading through the land and giving rise to the Sha, is something like what would happen if the Old Gods were killed - their essence would pollute the world and poison everything. So the Titans tried imprisoning them instead of killing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malygos The Spellweaver View Post
    He didn't even have the common decency to appear during the Hour of Twilight. I'm pretty sure that was why Deathwing lost. He just couldn't stand the egg on his face, seeing that empty seat in the audience with a piece of paper on it reading "reserved for daddy".
    Funnily enough, that's one of the reasons I'm fascinated by him and want to know more - he's been hinted at having so much power and influence (the Nightmare, Deathwing, possibly Azshara, vast armies of Faceless Ones in the ocean) and yet we've never caught a glimpse of the God himself.

    Consider this re.: the Hour of Twilight - the Dragonflights used up all their power destroying one of their own. N'Zoth's forces might not have taken the world, but he got a sweet consolation prize - the Titans greatest defense mechanism has been expended on what is essentially a misfire.

    I suspect he'd hoped for Deathwing to annihilate everything, and then to use the corrupted Dream to reshape Azeroth to his liking (the Dream being a blueprint for Azeroth and all). But even without Deathwing he's still got a lotta dogs in the fire, as it were.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    It's implied that what's going on in Pandaria right now, with the essence of Y'Shaarj spreading through the land and giving rise to the Sha, is something like what would happen if the Old Gods were killed - their essence would pollute the world and poison everything. So the Titans tried imprisoning them instead of killing them.
    That's really, really interesting. I never thought of the fate of Y'Shaarj equaling the stuff mentioned in the Halls of Stone. It definitely would make sense: the Titans killed Y'Shaarj, and he almost destroyed the continent as a result. And even then, he wasn't destroyed completely (as we now know). Definitely not a worthwhile endeavor to repeat with the others. I had always imagined that by "destroying Azeroth" they meant in a big dramatic sort of way, where the entire planet physically fell apart.

    But having the Curse of Y'Shaarj x 5, possibly in different and even more destructive varieties, could definitely qualify as a planet-killer.

    Funnily enough, that's one of the reasons I'm fascinated by him and want to know more - he's been hinted at having so much power and influence (the Nightmare, Deathwing, possibly Azshara, vast armies of Faceless Ones in the ocean) and yet we've never caught a glimpse of the God himself.

    Consider this re.: the Hour of Twilight - the Dragonflights used up all their power destroying one of their own. N'Zoth's forces might not have taken the world, but he got a sweet consolation prize - the Titans greatest defense mechanism has been expended on what is essentially a misfire.

    I suspect he'd hoped for Deathwing to annihilate everything, and then to use the corrupted Dream to reshape Azeroth to his liking (the Dream being a blueprint for Azeroth and all). But even without Deathwing he's still got a lotta dogs in the fire, as it were.
    My personal, all-jokes-aside theory on the matter is that perhaps N'Zoth is like Tzeentch from Warhammer 40k. In a way, it would be as you said: Deathwing's defeat played into his hands. But I have a feeling it may have done so in ways we can't yet imagine. Tzeentch is notorious for being a "God of Assholes" in that he often manipulates others, even his own, because of some grand scheme that no one else can comprehend dictates it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    Funnily enough, that's one of the reasons I'm fascinated by him and want to know more - he's been hinted at having so much power and influence (the Nightmare, Deathwing, possibly Azshara, vast armies of Faceless Ones in the ocean) and yet we've never caught a glimpse of the God himself.

    Consider this re.: the Hour of Twilight - the Dragonflights used up all their power destroying one of their own. N'Zoth's forces might not have taken the world, but he got a sweet consolation prize - the Titans greatest defense mechanism has been expended on what is essentially a misfire.

    I suspect he'd hoped for Deathwing to annihilate everything, and then to use the corrupted Dream to reshape Azeroth to his liking (the Dream being a blueprint for Azeroth and all). But even without Deathwing he's still got a lotta dogs in the fire, as it were.
    Very good point, about Deathwing. What if it was on purpose, that we defeat him, removing the Aspects from the picture. That would explain why Deathwing was literally impaled on top of Wyrmrest, if the hour of twilight had passed.

    [Dawn of the Aspects Spoilers]
    After reading Dawn of the Aspects, I was kind of sad that there wasn't more info to be shared about old gods and what not. But thinking about it. It could be very easy to link Galakrond to the old gods. Galakrond's depiction surely felt like Deathwing's. Also, the whole story was centered around an artifact that used to be Tyr's possession until it was eaten by Galakrond and tainted by its corruption through thousands of years.

    It's also interesting to see that not only the former Aspects lost their power, they also no longer wish to remain united. Did Galakrond's possible puppeteer finally win?

    In the Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron there is one line that I love of all the others: "There is a little lamb lost in dark woods..."

    I don't know what the dark woods or black forest portrays or represent. But I can't stop thinking that the lamb is Tyr.

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