Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    No it's not rewarding you for failing, it's an indication at how hard stuff will hit on heroics.

    The abilities of bosses are going to be that punishing that having the cloak is a way to mitigate those very insane damage spikes.
    Blizzard would NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, balance any part of the raid game around the need to have a specific piece of gear to guarantee your completion of a fight. They moved past that back in Vanilla, when they realised things like the Onyxia cloak were a dumb idea as a raid mechanic. The idea that blizzard would design the Heroic Content so that the only realistic way to survive it would be having the Legendary cloak is beyond dumb.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    There's already one example i've used so many times for this
    So you are calling a tank being hit by Execute a bad tank? One that will always 100% do more then their HP allows? From what I see using the tank legendary proc on this would be better then Purgatory or AD
    In the case of abilities that appear to be a guaranteed tank death, there are ALWAYS methods of mitigating them built into the raid mechanics. Think "extra action button" on Ultraxion for Tank Debuffs. Relying on your cloak to absorb them instead of properly following mechanics is once again rewarding bad play.

    --------------------------------------------

    Let me put this to you another way: Assuming everyone is doing what they are supposed to be doing, the fight is executed properly according to the intended mechanics, and no one cheezes anything, how rewarding is it going to be looking at Recount and going:

    Hey, My dps was awesome. I had great uptime on targets. Look how much extra damage my DPS cloak proc gave me.
    Hey, My healing was awesome. I had great throughput on the raid. Nobody died, Look how much extra Healing my Healing Cloak Proc gave me.
    Hey, My Tanking was awesome. Look at my ZERO legendary cloak procs. Why the hell didnt I get the DPS cloak instead.

    Which one of the above seems out of place to you?
    Last edited by Surfd; 2013-07-10 at 03:19 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    In the case of abilities that appear to be a guaranteed tank death, there are ALWAYS methods of mitigating them built into the raid mechanics. Think "extra action button" on Ultraxion for Tank Debuffs. Relying on your cloak to absorb them instead of properly following mechanics is once again rewarding bad play
    Look through his abilities, nothing shows up as being able to prevent it. His execute is a heroic mode ability only and has no counter that he gives you (according to DJ)
    Maxweii of
    <Vintage> on US-Mal'Ganis
    14/14 HM - US #113 (25s) -
    (#8 US among 9 hour per week guilds)
    Visit us here
    #Ordosforwarchief2013

  3. #23
    Interesting debate here, I think it's a fail safe for tanks, be it the tank's fault, the healer's fault or the boss hitting too hard. I don't see why it's a bad thing though, tanks are meant to boost their survivability and this is exactly that. Even if it absorbs a pitiful 20k hit, it might give those 0.5 sec needed to receive a heal.

    Now I think this proc has an insane cheat potential. First it would allow tank to take lethal hits on purpose such as Decapitate from Lei Shen, Execute in SoO... Second, if it's not limited to tank specs you could literally have your whole raid with the cloak making abilities like Static shock or Thunderstruck completely useless and non dangerous... I concede there are very few situations when it would be broken but for those situations it would literally make the fight a joke. Just imagine on protectors elite HC : can't handle the sha during P3 ? No problem, just zerg him down and soak the explosion !

  4. #24
    Most prot paladins (10m) are currently NOT planning to use the tanking cloak unless something drastically changes. Surfd's points are spot on.

    For those citing that the proc may help negate a lethal attack - between the relatively low damage that bosses in 10M output vs. the high uptimes most tanks have on their active mitigation, the tank proc actually being useful is more of an edge case than a common scenario.

    The proc will be more of a safety net (or a way to cheese mechanics) than anything else. Remember, more dps = faster the boss dies = fewer opportunities for mistakes.

    For those interested:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...loak-for-prot/

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Iglou View Post
    Once again I disagree.

    For such reasons I highly doubt there will be any kind of balance/mechanics that forces us to have such a legendary cloak (or even a 608 one).
    think one of the new world boss will require the people in the raid to have these cloaks , so you can bet that boss will have an abilty that will flatout kill tanks not wearing it, doubt they will use such mechanics in Siege of Orgrimar ofc.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Hey, My dps was awesome. I had great uptime on targets. Look how much extra damage my DPS cloak proc gave me.
    Hey, My healing was awesome. I had great throughput on the raid. Nobody died, Look how much extra Healing my Healing Cloak Proc gave me.
    Hey, My Tanking was awesome. Look at my ZERO legendary cloak procs. Why the hell didnt I get the DPS cloak instead.

    Which one of the above seems out of place to you?
    Tanking isn't about using up every single cooldown as much as possible. It's about having good tools available for use. Do you use LoH on yourself every single cooldown? Probably not. I'm guessing there are quite a few fights where you don't use LoH on yourself at all. Does that make LoH a crap ability?

  7. #27
    If I were playing my Brewmaster Monk enough to get the cloak anytime soon, I'd almost certainly get the DPS version. If I still played my druid, I'd get the DPS version on him too.

    Partly this is because I need more expertise like a hole in the head - I'm already reforging away as much as I can and still have more than I need. Whereas the Haste I could get in return is far more useful to me. As to the actual proc .. I figure it'll either rarely get used, or it'll be needed twice in succession and I'll still die. I'd also much prefer the AGI socket bonus to the STAM one.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Tanking isn't about using up every single cooldown as much as possible. It's about having good tools available for use. Do you use LoH on yourself every single cooldown? Probably not. I'm guessing there are quite a few fights where you don't use LoH on yourself at all. Does that make LoH a crap ability?
    Tank DPS has become a significant contribution to most 10M comps. On most fights I'm either topping meters (H Horridon) or doing 75-80% of the damage a DPS does (most two tank fights).

    Your example with LoH is a bit misleading - you don't lose out on anything by using LoH or having LoH on your bars. By taking the tanking cloak for insurance instead of the DPS one, you're lowering your raid's overall dps, making fights last longer (which opens up opportunities for mistakes and can strain your healer's mana) all for the possibility of a rare "what if" moment.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Blizzard would NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, balance any part of the raid game around the need to have a specific piece of gear to guarantee your completion of a fight. They moved past that back in Vanilla, when they realised things like the Onyxia cloak were a dumb idea as a raid mechanic. The idea that blizzard would design the Heroic Content so that the only realistic way to survive it would be having the Legendary cloak is beyond dumb.
    I wouldn't be too certain about that. They have been taking a lot of steps lately after all towards making the more hardcore part of the endgame more exclusive. You can't even get access to one of the new world bosses without a fully legendary cloaked raid either. Actually, it stands more to reason that heroic content is definately going to be tuned with the legendary cloaks in mind, else top-guilds are just gonna breeze through the content in their progress. Remember the Deathwing Impale? All serious guilds would have forced their tanks to wear a cloak with this proc just to progress. Up to a point I'm even quite certain they'll tune normal modes with the legendary cloaks in mind as well.


    Anyway, not sure why anyone would think the legendary cloak is that useless. Didn't prot paladins already used to have this 'proc' as a basic talent in WotLK? I vaguely remember our Paladin MT being totally obsessed with a similar proc and that guy was a mega-hardcore theorycrafting nerd.
    Last edited by Anarch the Conqueror; 2013-07-10 at 04:49 PM.
    Maddest of them all.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Tank DPS has become a significant contribution to most 10M comps. On most fights I'm either topping meters (H Horridon) or doing 75-80% of the damage a DPS does (most two tank fights).
    Well, if DPS is an issue, then you should take the DPS cloak. Tanking procs don't increase DPS by and large.

    I really don't understand the complaint. Prot Paladins want DPS stats to tank with. There's a cloak with DPS stats you can get. So just get that one.

    There are lots of tanking trinkets that have procs that Prot Paladins don't want. So they don't use them and use DPS trinkets instead. Seems to me that's problem solved.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Anyway, not sure why anyone would think the legendary cloak is that useless. Didn't prot paladins already used to have this 'proc' as a basic talent in WotLK? I vaguely remember our Paladin MT being totally obsessed with a similar proc and that guy was a mega-hardcore theorycrafting nerd.
    We still do, only now instead of it triggering automatically, we need to click it.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Anyway, not sure why anyone would think the legendary cloak is that useless. Didn't prot paladins already used to have this 'proc' as a basic talent in WotLK? I vaguely remember our Paladin MT being totally obsessed with a similar proc and that guy was a mega-hardcore theorycrafting nerd.
    The Wrath version of AD was super OP, and had a 2min CD.

    This is 1 minute, and arguably better/same power level. You won't drop to 30% hp if you were going to die from some mega hit (which is why basically any tank dies in heroic progression), you just won't take the damage at all. Plus... 1 min icd? If you tank dies at all with this, you're doing something horrible wrong.

  13. #33
    Pit Lord malletin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    denmark
    Posts
    2,479
    If they make it so that purgatory and the cloak procs at the same time I won't get overly sad because that would mean i can go for anti-magic zone and have some sort of raid utility aside from being a tank. Maybe its just my flawed way of thinking, but be that as it may.
    "any man shaving for a woman should relinquish ownership of his testicles aswell"

  14. #34
    This procc will actually up your dps quite alot since you can, as someone else was mentioning, vengence "abuse". And by now ppl should know that vengence "abusing" makes the tank a lot tankier and topping the meters.

  15. #35
    I remember this exact argument and line of reasoning a while back when mages first got cauterize. Identical arguments about "if you die you did something bad!" and "you'll never NEED to proc it so it'll be useless!".

    Then mages specced it, and *aggressively exploited* it. You KNOW you have this proc in your back pocket so you plan accordingly and use it. Once a minute, massive hits that would kill you can be ignored. Any fight with a stacking debuff now you can take an extra stack or two.

    If you have the cloak and play just as you would normally and do nothing with the proc except use it as a safety net, then sure its bad and will only matter when you've already screwed up bad enough to wipe. If you intelligently leverage the proc as a new tool that you have, its very possible you'll outright ignore or break mechanics, just like mages did with cauterize.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •