king pick who the leader of the horde i dont understand? why not thrall?

[yetgdhfgh]

amazing...you're speaking of it as if you were there and you have witnessed everything.

----

there's two sides to this story and one is considered to be canon IMO. the Alliance assists Varian and the Horde assists BE's and forsaken.

I do hope the Alliance side will be canonical.

I said sounds like

What i posted is merely opinion and the fact that i am defending my faction that is all

But im right when i say Wrathion isnt at the siege so what he hears is second hand information it shouldnt be regarded as fact

Now obviously we dont know what side is canonical but i would hazard a guess and say the allies suffers as much as the horde landing party does at the beachhead and that only us heroes manage to break the siege to get to garrosh where by the sounds of it thrall is waiting.

Now this leads me to believe the allies wont be in strength at orgrimmar when this is all said and done now sure if varian wishes to come back with more hard pipe hitting brothers to go to work on orgrimmar then sure i will give you that but by the sounds of it he wont

Notice how i say the word by the sounds of it not stating fact

[Florena]

We aint owing you shit bottom line is varian doesnt have the strength at orgrimmar to start shit and i aint taking the word of some jumped up little shit dragon who wasnt there!

Wrathion's audio implies that Varian is indeed in a position where he could continue to push the horde and subjugate them, albeit with heavy losses.

[DeadmanWalking]

I am of the mindset that Varian should of made demands like the Forsaken are to leave Gilneas and return to their native land after crippling their ability to make war.

[yetgdhfgh]

Wrathion's audio implies that Varian is indeed in a position where he could continue to push the horde and subjugate them, albeit with heavy losses.

Implies

Yeah i really trust the word of a little whelp black dragon who wasnt there

[JudgePayne]

Implies

Yeah i really trust the word of a little whelp black dragon who wasnt there

We dont know he was not there *Speculation* Himself and Anduin appear in the cutscene at the end or siege.

[yetgdhfgh]

We dont know he was not there *Speculation* Himself and Anduin appear in the cutscene at the end or siege.

That is indeed possible but i doubt he will show up at the end

He aint that stupid to turn up to a warzone he likes to sit in shadows and play like us fools

I will guess he will be chilling out in pandaria while this is all going on

[Demoneq]

amazing...you're speaking of it as if you were there and you have witnessed everything.
I do hope the Alliance side will be canonical.

It should be possible to make two different angles of the story, both of them "canon".
Think of something like battle of the Undercity back in WotLK, where Alliance and Horde took different routes and had different "final boss" (Putress for Alliance, Varimathras for Horde), then the same "finale" with each on their side - of course Garrosh would be the boss for both sides here, but the route to him might differ slightly, and the finale after he is dead might be roughly the same for each faction.

On topic of Varian (mind, it's only my own speculation), he possibly could have the army destroy Orgrimmar (albeit with losses due to Horde resistance), but that wouldn't destroy the -whole- Horde, who while weakened, would probably build another capital/rebuild Orgrimmar, or go "guerilla", with no centralised government residence to destroy (that's the strength of partisan warfare, there's no headquarters to destroy, no supply lines to cut, etc.), effectively forcing him into a genocidal all out war - which he could probably eventually win, but it would be really costly for the Alliance (also, hello, genocide of the whole races? I doubt Varian would want to go there).

So, from purely pragmatic point of view, it might still be a better choice for Varian to let the Horde to pick their own new warchief etc. (while at the same time posing as a benevolent "victor" or so, to try and put down the foundations for potential future peace talks)

I play both factions btw, so please don't accuse me of taking sides - in fact I'm striving to be as neutral here as I can.

[Deleted]

This is not the end either faction would want tbh.

Alliance players would be furious Varian marching out of Org all "jobs done chaps, lets go have tea and buscuits, and let our enemies live".

Horde players have that wonderful moment of from now on our faction owing its entire existence down to "Alliance mercy".

I'd much rather have Varian making a threat to control Orgrimmar and the remaining horde gathered telling him enough have died and to go home or have his few remaining survivors he has left will be killed and their corpses given to Sylvannas.

If Varian leaves reluctantly considering the lives of his men more important that way both sides can save face.

[babo7000]

I said sounds like

What i posted is merely opinion and the fact that i am defending my faction that is all

But im right when i say Wrathion isnt at the siege so what he hears is second hand information it shouldnt be regarded as fact

Now obviously we dont know what side is canonical but i would hazard a guess and say the allies suffers as much as the horde landing party does at the beachhead and that only us heroes manage to break the siege to get to garrosh where by the sounds of it thrall is waiting.

Now this leads me to believe the allies wont be in strength at orgrimmar when this is all said and done now sure if varian wishes to come back with more hard pipe hitting brothers to go to work on orgrimmar then sure i will give you that but by the sounds of it he wont

Notice how i say the word by the sounds of it not stating fact

Please, the rebels couldn't even hold Bladefist Bay and that was the whole point of 5.3. If it wasn't for the Alliance in 5.4, there would be no landing, meaning the rebels would have been left in Durotar on their own.

Aside from Blizzard having said as much themselves, there is no chance the Horde will be anywhere close to the Alliance in terms of power post siege. Any losses the Alliance may suffer in 5.4 will only be twice as costly for the Horde. (i.e Ally losing 1 soldier is like the rebels losing 2-3)

[Yarathir]

I am of the mindset that Varian should of made demands like the Forsaken are to leave Gilneas and return to their native land after crippling their ability to make war.

Me too. I hated the fact that the end of Siege of Orgrimmar was pretty much gonna be: "we're good guys. Fuck being able to demand back all the land that was taken from us during Garrosh's reign or with the use of weapons that make any normal person a war criminal. We're the friendly neighbourhood Alliance saving you from your dictator. We're done with our driving-yo-plot task now! Buh-byeee!"


Well, at least, according to this, he gets to choose the Warchief or choose whether a Warchief is accepted. Better than nothing, but still pretty horribad.

[babo7000]

Me too. I hated the fact that the end of Siege of Orgrimmar was pretty much gonna be: "we're good guys. Fuck being able to demand back all the land that was taken from us during Garrosh's reign or with the use of weapons that make any normal person a war criminal. We're the friendly neighbourhood Alliance saving you from your dictator. We're done with our driving-yo-plot task now! Buh-byeee!"


Well, at least, according to this, he gets to choose the Warchief or choose whether a Warchief is accepted. Better than nothing, but still pretty horribad.

How do we know he doesn't make such request? Why are people referring to 5.4 events in past term as if we know everything that will happen that patch?

[Deleted]

Everyone says Vol'jin, and I agree it would be an Ok choice, but Blizzard did say once something along the lines of 'it won't be someone expected', and Vol'jin has always been the Number One expectation with the players (maybe tied with Saurfang)

[Yarathir]

How do we know he doesn't make such request? Why are people referring to 5.4 events in past term as if we know everything that will happen that patch?

We haven't seen anyone indicating it so far, and I'm pretty sure that Blizzard -- and most of the Horde community won't allow it. Until I see it, I won't believe it happens, really. And so far, I haven't seen anything indicating it. If anything, only stuff against it: "We don't want to redo zones to reflect the change from war because it does not create gameplay" (Dave Kosak, I thought, on Twitter)


This also creates another issue. According to Wrathion, Varian and the Alliance had no chance to down Garrosh when the Horde was united. This implies that the Alliance is weaker than the Horde. Yes, it does.


This also answers the question of "how is it that the Alliance lost everything in Cataclysm", but it's also stupid. Good job, making one faction stronger than the other.

[Verdugo]

lol @ Varian doesn't have strenght. Varian should have just taken the whole world. He is too soft now after Wolfheart.

He barely has forces to keep neighbouring zones under control.

[Ritthepally]

i dunno maybe because thrall is too busy being a demigod dragon aspect...

[babo7000]

We haven't seen anyone indicating it so far, and I'm pretty sure that Blizzard -- and most of the Horde community won't allow it. Until I see it, I won't believe it happens, really. And so far, I haven't seen anything indicating it. If anything, only stuff against it: "We don't want to redo zones to reflect the change from war because it does not create gameplay" (Dave Kosak, I thought, on Twitter)


This also creates another issue. According to Wrathion, Varian and the Alliance had no chance to down Garrosh when the Horde was united. This implies that the Alliance is weaker than the Horde. Yes, it does.


This also answers the question of "how is it that the Alliance lost everything in Cataclysm", but it's also stupid. Good job, making one faction stronger than the other.

Wrathion never said, 'The Horde is stronger so I am picking them'. Stop reading in between the lines. He chooses the Horde because the Horde, more specifically Garrosh, has been much more ambitious and aggressive in Pandaria.

Think about it, the first time he watches Garrosh, he see's him immediately look for an ancient weapon to strengthen his army. Obviously someone like this would have the strength and courage to take on the Legion. The Alliance had been to passive, which is why he choose Horde.

Also, Kosak, or at least from what I have been taking from it, seems to be softening in to Ally player demands on twitter to show victories in game, so theres a chance.

[Hitei]

He barely has forces to keep neighbouring zones under control.

Considering that with no Kor'kron around, Sylvanas and the Valkyr are the ONLY thing even remotely threatening on the Horde side... I would say the Alliance could easily have wiped out the rebellion's forces.

[Yarathir]

Wrathion never said, 'The Horde is stronger so I am picking them'. Stop reading in between the lines. He chooses the Horde because the Horde, more specifically Garrosh, has been much more ambitious and aggressive in Pandaria.

Think about it, the first time he watches Garrosh, he see's him immediately look for an ancient weapon to strengthen his army. Obviously someone like this would have the strength and courage to take on the Legion. The Alliance had been to passive, which is why he choose Horde.

Also, Kosak, or at least from what I have been taking from it, seems to be softening in to Ally player demands on twitter to show victories in game, so theres a chance.

"I thought Hellscream's victory was assured, before he turned half of his Horde against him. So I changed my allegiance."



Plus the fact that the Horde has had the majority of the victories, before he found all these Ancient Pandaren Doomsday Weapons. They only needed to confirm that the Horde was superior, and they somewhat did.


Also, I don't really believe Kosak will, but we can always hope. I don't follow him anymore, but if you do, you're probably more trustworthy on that front.

[Alwek]

This is not the end either faction would want tbh.

I think it is, for once we have seen what the true Alliance stands for. What we saw here was the Alliance being the upper hand, stronger and more dominant, and they could have ended the Horde and save/cause future touble. But it chose mercy and a chance for the horde to get back to what it former was.

And the horde now got a second chance to show everyone who they truly are, an honorful and peaceful faction(Tauren, trolls, orcs, goblins and orcs atleast).
They wanted to get rid of Garrosh and heal the damage it has done to them, and that is what they got.

[Urti]

Considering that with no Kor'kron around, Sylvanas and the Valkyr are the ONLY thing even remotely threatening on the Horde side... I would say the Alliance could easily have wiped out the rebellion's forces.

And do what afterwards? They would have zero support in theater, with only a tenuous supply line back to EK (vulnerable to attack by Sylvanas) or whatever support the Nelves could muster. Meanwhile the Horde would quickly reunify with the threat of a double-crossing Alliance looming over them and re-siege Orgrimmar from any number of strongholds: Thunder Bluff, Echo Isles, Razor Hill. Varian could break trust and turn on the Horde, taking Org quite easily, but all that would accomplish would be to trap him in a foreign capitol, surrounded by enemies sore at his double-cross, out-manned and out-supplied, and torpedo any future opportunity for a lasting peace.


To use a GoT analogy, Varian taking Org would be about the same as Theon taking Winterfell.