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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Oggy View Post
    When you use FF you gain 30% haste, your pet scales from your haste aswell. So even if your pet looses the FF stacks it indirectly gain haste from your buff. You also drop the pet stacks so it can imidiatly start gaining new. This is the reason you alwasy use FF when at 5 stacks. Again with the exception of when BW is active since its then a lost GCD with focus reduction/damage gain.

    Your Ilvl has nothing to do with if your going crit->haste or haste->crit. Its all dependable of your number of RPPM items.
    Haste (or any 2´ndary stat for that matter) will NEVER outscale pure agility. No matter what funky situation your in. Agility is straight up better.

    You want to stack every buff you can, specially during BW, since it all scales with eachother.
    That is wrong. You gain ranged haste which is completely different than melee haste; the haste your pet scales off of. Using it just gives you haste and gives your pet focus.

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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    That is wrong. You gain ranged haste which is completely different than melee haste; the haste your pet scales off of. Using it just gives you haste and gives your pet focus.
    Had to double check, but this is correct

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Put a scope on your gun and haste > crit is noticeably different for BM when you have everything.
    Do seem to be pulling better numbers, but does seem slightly more RNG.

    Dno how I forgot the scope though. Mustv'e just gone to bed after the raid and forgot to scope it :P

  4. #24
    You should want to have additional haste effects during BW. It makes trinket proc chance higher and some of them give higher focus regen to your pet (which increase wild hunt uptime).

    I normally use RF on cooldown and FF as soon as it is on 5 stacks and I am not during BW. You dont want to waste GCD during BW, but apart from that you should always pop FF asap. It gives bonus focus to your pet which should put him into WH state and you get higher chance for trinkets, if its not enough he can already start getting new stacks!

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by khalamo View Post
    You should want to have additional haste effects during BW.
    Alright I will try that then. I didn't realise about the GCD being the only reason for not using FF during BW.

    In other news finally managed to rank on Durumu HC (our second kill). And I was completely out of pots at that time
    So it's a start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devboy View Post
    Do seem to be pulling better numbers, but does seem slightly more RNG.
    It does seem that and I know many hunters are iffy about going haste, but once they do they don't look back.

  6. #26
    who are these hunters gemming haste ? I don't know of any.. If a few are, they are probably just messing around during farm trying to test it out.. I am curious to see their findings though.. But afaik, even with full bis this tier, 1 point of agi will still (albeit slightly) outweigh 2 haste..

    Also if you have renataki, the opener changes.. with the goal being to fit 5 KC's in that 20 second window.. Fatal posted it in one of the threads. Both the openers posted here don't account for trinket procs.. which are responsible for the biggest boost in dps..

    And people again keep forgetting one of the biggest factors behind BM wanting haste.. blink strikes.. outside of blink strikes, the stat prio would probably end up being crit haste mastery as it was before the talent change.. But if you take that talent and have a few rppm items, haste crit mastery is definitely far superior..

  7. #27
    The question was never if agi is bette then haste. Agi will always be the best stat to max out. But after that most hunter, if not all go for agi->haste->crit with bis or near bis.
    Its does not really have anything to do with your ilvl if you should switch or not. When you have enough RPPM items, then you swtich.
    As soon as you aquire the meta gem, 2 RPPM trinkets and 2p tier. You switch to haste build.
    Haste just straight up outweights crit by this points.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Oggy View Post
    The question was never if agi is bette then haste. Agi will always be the best stat to max out. But after that most hunter, if not all go for agi->haste->crit with bis or near bis.
    Its does not really have anything to do with your ilvl if you should switch or not. When you have enough RPPM items, then you swtich.
    As soon as you aquire the meta gem, 2 RPPM trinkets and 2p tier. You switch to haste build.
    Haste just straight up outweights crit by this points.
    Quote Originally Posted by OswinOswald View Post
    So the first question is, can haste actually outvalue agility at any gear level in this tier?
    That actually was the question posed by the op.. And I assumed he meant 2 haste > 1 agi cuz that would warrant the use of 320 haste gems (double the stat of a primary stat gem).. But yea like I said that doesn't happen this tier afaik..

    Have to keep in mind, BM has a very decent synergy between all three stats.. Cuz if we didn't, then RoRo would be our BiS.. But it isn't cuz dropping mastery/crit levels to that low in favor of full haste doesn't net in higher dps.. We need a relative balance..

    And yea to reiterate, rppm items push haste close to crit but still keeping it below it.. blink strikes coupled with rppm pushes haste over crit..

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    That actually was the question posed by the op.. And I assumed he meant 2 haste > 1 agi cuz that would warrant the use of 320 haste gems (double the stat of a primary stat gem).. But yea like I said that doesn't happen this tier afaik..

    Have to keep in mind, BM has a very decent synergy between all three stats.. Cuz if we didn't, then RoRo would be our BiS.. But it isn't cuz dropping mastery/crit levels to that low in favor of full haste doesn't net in higher dps.. We need a relative balance..

    And yea to reiterate, rppm items push haste close to crit but still keeping it below it.. blink strikes coupled with rppm pushes haste over crit..
    That's wrong. The reason RoRo isn't our bis is because of all the agi you lose from dropping renataki's/bad juju. If it gave the same agi, then it might actually be of use to us.

    As BM the stats are close, but trading off your mastery for haste is a considerable increase. Especially when the rune has a 2:1 stat modifier.

    BM stacked haste before blink strikes was even implemented, so it wasn't what made us stack haste. It will be a factor next tier definitely though.

    Quote Originally Posted by OswinOswald View Post
    So the first question is, can haste actually outvalue agility at any gear level in this tier? How come crit is shown as more valuable in some simulations, and is there a relation between crit and haste (for example the more haste you have, the higher its prio over crit, or the other way around)?
    Haste will never overvalue agi this expac as far as I know.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-07-13 at 11:52 PM.

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  10. #30
    Well that was part of what I meant.. since our secondaries will never outweight agi, the benefit of RoRo drops.. But I disagree that dropping 'both' mastery & crit for more haste would be a 'considerable' increase.. keeping crit and trading mastery for haste, for sure..

    And BM didn't 'stack' haste.. stacking haste was debatable back then.. it was by no means a clear winner.. The priority was still crit >= haste > mastery.. blink strikes made it a clear winner.. that was my point

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    Well that was part of what I meant.. since our secondaries will never outweight agi, the benefit of RoRo drops.. But I disagree that dropping 'both' mastery & crit for more haste would be a 'considerable' increase.. keeping crit and trading mastery for haste, for sure..

    And BM didn't 'stack' haste.. stacking haste was debatable back then.. it was by no means a clear winner.. The priority was still crit >= haste > mastery.. blink strikes made it a clear winner.. that was my point
    That point may be right for SV, but for BM it went to stacking haste before it was even implemented.

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  12. #32
    No.. I don't know what time you are talking about..

    And on the other thread you imply that RPPM items don't heavily influence our decision to go haste.. So if it doesn't, why were we ever going haste in the first place ? According to you, both blink strikes and RPPM don't have a 'significant' impact on it then were you going haste in the last tier ? I'm not understanding your logic here..

    It was originally c > m > h for BM.. Haste was shit.. then come 5.2, cuz of RPPM trinkets and tier set bonuses it became c > h > m with a debate between whether to go h > c or not (still remember the multiple threads on that topic and some hunters experimenting with it.. with no definitive results).. i.e. people weren't gemming defts..
    it was never as concrete as it is now.. only after the blink strikes change did it become like that..

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    No.. I don't know what time you are talking about..

    And on the other thread you imply that RPPM items don't heavily influence our decision to go haste.. So if it doesn't, why were we ever going haste in the first place ? According to you, both blink strikes and RPPM don't have a 'significant' impact on it then were you going haste in the last tier ? I'm not understanding your logic here..

    It was originally c > m > h for BM.. Haste was shit.. then come 5.2, cuz of RPPM trinkets and tier set bonuses it became c > h > m with a debate between whether to go h > c or not (still remember the multiple threads on that topic and some hunters experimenting with it.. with no definitive results).. i.e. people weren't gemming defts..
    it was never as concrete as it is now.. only after the blink strikes change did it become like that..
    I don't know where you got that out of my posts. I have always said with haste you can see a noticeable difference in Real PPM procs. My point is that haste is really good for BM.

    I don't think that you're remembering pre 5.3 correctly, but a lot of people started going haste > crit for BM before blink strikes was implemented. If I test it out in femaledwarf as BM with AMoC with a crit build it's a 1061.96 dps loss (after the AMoC dps loss). Besides, it's pointless to argue about it anyway.

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