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  1. #1

    Improving beast mastery dps

    So, a little background: I play beast mastery on all Heroic fights except Tortos and Ji-Kun because those are hopeless. I have just started proper HC progress with a new guild (10/13 with 4 new guild heroics progressed last week + 3 another new heroics for me to catch up with their progress). Thus I don't have much logs or experience with HC kills.

    First of all I would like to explain that so far I have been using forum threads rather than simulations to take suggestions for reforges and stat prio. I'm doing ok dps, usually within 80-95% of WoL rank. This morning I've done some research on bm openers as well the reasoning behind common start prio agi>>haste>crit>mastery (with full rppm gear), but I really can't find any current info going deeper than "haste for rppm".

    I've done some simulations on femaledwarf, but although the site is great for determining bis gear, talents and reforge, the stat prio it gives me ranges from agi>crit>haste>>mastery (when simming my current gear) to haste>agi>mastery>crit when I swap all my gems to full haste (which I noticed some high ranked players are doing... stacking haste for once-every-blue-moon extreme trinket uptimes -> top ranks possibly?). Simcraft says agi>>haste>crit>=mastery although that too varies with minor stat changes.

    So the first question is, can haste actually outvalue agility at any gear level in this tier? How come crit is shown as more valuable in some simulations, and is there a relation between crit and haste (for example the more haste you have, the higher its prio over crit, or the other way around)?

    Secondly I'm looking to improve my dps in general. As survival the task is quite easy as you can see all your abilities on world of logs and compare the numbers over time. Is there a way to do the same with Kill Commands as BM?

    Lastly about the BM shot priority and opener, I have read that massive thread with everyone posting their own, and it seems like there is a lot of ideas of how to execute it (especially placing Stampede and Dire Beast). So I will just post my starter, please point out any weaknesses you can spot.



    The (VERY hypothetical) thinking behind this:
    Get those procs from a Cobra Shot precast
    Squeeze the first BW in Synapse Strings and Blood Fury
    Fit everything in prepot
    Refresh SrS with Cobra rather than reapply (tier procs)

    Notes about further shot priority:
    Don't stack RF with FF, use RF first
    Don't stack FF and BW
    After starter stick to the BW combo: Dire Beast, (Blood Fury), Synapse Strings (delay second one for BW off cd after readiness), Bestial Wrath, Kill Command, Glaive>Arcane, Kill Command
    Kill Shot>everything

    Basically all about fitting those big hitters in all kinds of procs and cooldowns.

    Now obviously there is something here that explains the 10-20% gap between me and the ranked players that I'm missing, but then again all this is based on other threads, plus my own assumptions and very limited experience.

    PS: I play at ~100ms so I probably miss some of those Arcane Shots.
    My armoury and some logs.

  2. #2
    I've had the exact same stance on the haste build as you and for that reason played with crit for a very long time. It wasn't until several high ranked Hunters talked me into trying haste before I started taking it seriously. Unfortunately I hardly do any of the heroic fights these days due to already having the gear and sitting for people who still need those bosses, so I can't compare the haste VS crit build that well. Almost the only fights I still do these days are fights where I have to do a crappy job like kicking turtles or tanking a golem on Dark Animus with a tenacity pet. However, I have done loads of Lei-Shen heroic attempts with the crit build and after that with the haste build without upgrading or altering my gear in any way apart from gems, reforges and enchants. The haste build came out ahead by roughly 15k DPS on average, never dropping below the crit build.

    I don't like to talk about the whole haste VS crit thing simply because I don't fully understand it myself. But on that fights specifically it definitely came ahead by quite a large amount. My advice is to just give it a try and see where you end up. I was pleasantly surprised, and have been using it since then without looking back.

    Your opener is from memory the exact same as me with the exception of a pre-pull Cobra Shot. I know RNG is RNG but I've never noticed a difference in Thunderhawk procs by precasting a Cobra Shot on the pull. By doing this, you lose out about 1.75 seconds of your potion. It would benefit from your crit to be fair, but from my testing several months ago by now I've noticed no difference.
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  3. #3
    Brewmaster Arcanimus's Avatar
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    Random little thing i've been using: Pre-Synapse with a second pair of gloves, like the old Moonwell Chalice trick. you get an extra 10 secs of synapse uptime, but it'll offset your cooldowns by about 30 secs.
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  4. #4
    Damn i read "Improving breast mastery" beeing disappointed now

  5. #5
    Brewmaster Arcanimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripponesan View Post
    Damn i read "Improving breast mastery" beeing disappointed now
    May want to get that dyslexia checked out. Or take your mind outta the gutter.
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  6. #6
    Mechagnome Devboy's Avatar
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    See, I've been toying with the idea of going into a haste>Crit build as opposed to Crit>haste, but I haven't as I've heard it generally doesn't matter, and the net gain may not always be worth more DPS.

    What sort of break points of haste would someone aim for with a haste over crit build? or is it just gemming reforging and enchanting haste over all?

    Here's my Amoury, so any tips would be appreciated. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%A9v/advanced

    I can also post logs if it would help better. I've recently just got my Meta (little late to the party, but meh) as well as my 2nd BiS trinket. Would it be worth going into a more haste build, or would I stand to not really gain much from doing so?

    Additionally OP,

    You can track KC on Wol by doing do damage done, and then expand yourself, and your pet should appear on the list and from there you can track the abilities used (KC comes up) and work out how many times you used it during the fight.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    I don't believe there are haste breakpoints. If you have the Legendary meta or two ToT trinkets that proc based on the RPPM method than you should try reforging into haste. You can use askmrrobot to do it for you by selecting the PVE: Tier 15 RPPM dropdown.

  8. #8
    This is the Opener I've been going with. Instead of doing a Pre-Pot+Precast Cobra Shot, I've been been doing Pre-Pot+Instant KC. This lets you get in an extra attack(KC) during Pre-Pot + some pet melee hits.

    **Warning** Pet might die if tanks are slow on the countdown.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Hc&usp=sharing

    Last edited by Drairon; 2013-07-10 at 04:08 PM.

  9. #9
    I was under the impression that you shouldn't use BW and KC in one macro, especially when you have hight ping, as the bonus dmg is not applied due to server lag?

    Also some hunters suggest using FF as soon as you get 5 stacks, except when you are under the effect of TBW
    Last edited by Kirdiz; 2013-07-11 at 12:33 PM.

  10. #10
    Do trinket procs increase our 2p hawk damage?
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  11. #11
    Just a few notes.

    Always use FF at 5 stacks instantly. UNLESS your under BW. 1 Sec before or 1 sec after is fine.
    Always stack as many cd as you can during BW. But never wait more then 1-2 seconds with BW cd itself.
    This include using FF and RF at the same time.
    Dont bother with haste untill you have 2 RPPM trinkets AND legendary meta gem AND 2p tier. Still gem max agi.
    Dont macro KC with BW unless you have under 10 MS.

  12. #12
    Dont macro KC with BW at all. It is stupid.

    You are using Readiness at the start so after your 2nd KC you will use your 3rd KC (during first BW) with still around 3 sec on BW meaning that you will overwrite it with new one, wasting 3 secs.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by khalamo View Post
    Dont macro KC with BW at all. It is stupid.
    Never have used that macro, never would. Where did this come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by khalamo View Post
    You are using Readiness at the start so after your 2nd KC you will use your 3rd KC (during first BW) with still around 3 sec on BW meaning that you will overwrite it with new one, wasting 3 secs.
    There is a Cobra, DB and Glaive in my rotation before I use the second BW... Unless I misunderstood something here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oggy View Post
    Always use FF at 5 stacks instantly. UNLESS your under BW. 1 Sec before or 1 sec after is fine.
    Explain please. If I use it 1 second before BW I will get all the useless haste (already have focus cost reduction and Dire Beast up), and my pet loses quite a bit attack speed for the duration of BW (until new Frenzy stacks).

    Quote Originally Posted by Oggy View Post
    Dont bother with haste untill you have 2 RPPM trinkets AND legendary meta gem AND 2p tier. Still gem max agi.
    I'm 542 ilvl. Haven't reforged into crit for months now. My question is whether agility can outvalue haste rank wise, since quite a few top hunters on WoL have full yellow gems. Just curious if it's just about the trinket procs.

    Quote Originally Posted by timoseewho View Post
    Do trinket procs increase our 2p hawk damage?
    That's the question I should have asked, I've looked it up, seems like it does benefit from mastery, haste and crit but not AP, so precasting might be indeed pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oggy View Post
    This include using FF and RF at the same time.
    Why :>

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by khalamo View Post
    Dont macro KC with BW at all. It is stupid.

    You are using Readiness at the start so after your 2nd KC you will use your 3rd KC (during first BW) with still around 3 sec on BW meaning that you will overwrite it with new one, wasting 3 secs.
    Don't see anywhere where the OP mentioned BW/KC Macro. In both Spreadsheets, the second BW is used after the first one is over.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by OswinOswald View Post
    So, a little background: I play beast mastery on all Heroic fights except Tortos and Ji-Kun because those are hopeless. I have just started proper HC progress with a new guild (10/13 with 4 new guild heroics progressed last week + 3 another new heroics for me to catch up with their progress). Thus I don't have much logs or experience with HC kills.

    First of all I would like to explain that so far I have been using forum threads rather than simulations to take suggestions for reforges and stat prio. I'm doing ok dps, usually within 80-95% of WoL rank. This morning I've done some research on bm openers as well the reasoning behind common start prio agi>>haste>crit>mastery (with full rppm gear), but I really can't find any current info going deeper than "haste for rppm".

    I've done some simulations on femaledwarf, but although the site is great for determining bis gear, talents and reforge, the stat prio it gives me ranges from agi>crit>haste>>mastery (when simming my current gear) to haste>agi>mastery>crit when I swap all my gems to full haste (which I noticed some high ranked players are doing... stacking haste for once-every-blue-moon extreme trinket uptimes -> top ranks possibly?). Simcraft says agi>>haste>crit>=mastery although that too varies with minor stat changes.

    So the first question is, can haste actually outvalue agility at any gear level in this tier? How come crit is shown as more valuable in some simulations, and is there a relation between crit and haste (for example the more haste you have, the higher its prio over crit, or the other way around)?

    Secondly I'm looking to improve my dps in general. As survival the task is quite easy as you can see all your abilities on world of logs and compare the numbers over time. Is there a way to do the same with Kill Commands as BM?

    Lastly about the BM shot priority and opener, I have read that massive thread with everyone posting their own, and it seems like there is a lot of ideas of how to execute it (especially placing Stampede and Dire Beast). So I will just post my starter, please point out any weaknesses you can spot.



    The (VERY hypothetical) thinking behind this:
    Get those procs from a Cobra Shot precast
    Squeeze the first BW in Synapse Strings and Blood Fury
    Fit everything in prepot
    Refresh SrS with Cobra rather than reapply (tier procs)

    Notes about further shot priority:
    Don't stack RF with FF, use RF first
    Don't stack FF and BW
    After starter stick to the BW combo: Dire Beast, (Blood Fury), Synapse Strings (delay second one for BW off cd after readiness), Bestial Wrath, Kill Command, Glaive>Arcane, Kill Command
    Kill Shot>everything

    Basically all about fitting those big hitters in all kinds of procs and cooldowns.

    Now obviously there is something here that explains the 10-20% gap between me and the ranked players that I'm missing, but then again all this is based on other threads, plus my own assumptions and very limited experience.

    PS: I play at ~100ms so I probably miss some of those Arcane Shots.
    My armoury and some logs.

    I haven't done any serious raiding since WotLK, so I may just be missing something, but why would you wait for the second BW to end before using your second Rapid Fire? Neither trigger a GCD and I imagine stacking them would be better off overall. You could also combine 2, 3, and 4 into one macro minus the kill command, which people are saying not to do anyway.

  16. #16
    I've been playing way too much SV for my liking (coming back to my roots slowly but have BM'ers been using FF this whole expansion? I remember using it in the beginning but much discussions were going on about how bad it was (guess it was c>m>h days). Did it just make a comeback with all the rppm shenanigan? I've been using it since I'm playing BM more and I have to say it's a nice touch. I still try not to use it 10-20s before BW though. It's extremely frustrating actually seeing Frenzy stacks fail to refresh-_-.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Alesa View Post
    why would you wait for the second BW to end before using your second Rapid Fire?
    There is just no need for extra haste during BW with the Dire Beast up and the reduced focus cost of spells, if anything using it like 5 seconds before BW might be good to try and force trinket procs for the duration of next Bestial Wrath?

    Everything seems to be about haste and procs now, so using FF at 5 stacks does compute, but I would be really iffy about popping it anywhere near BW.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Devboy View Post
    See, I've been toying with the idea of going into a haste>Crit build as opposed to Crit>haste, but I haven't as I've heard it generally doesn't matter, and the net gain may not always be worth more DPS.

    What sort of break points of haste would someone aim for with a haste over crit build? or is it just gemming reforging and enchanting haste over all?

    Here's my Amoury, so any tips would be appreciated. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%A9v/advanced
    Put a scope on your gun and haste > crit is noticeably different for BM when you have everything.

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  19. #19
    U wrote BW+KC so probably some automatically understood it as a macro.
    When you use FF your pet gains focus which allows more wild hunt attacks ( or what ever they were called, bonus dmg when pets has more than 50 focus), also the haste gives you more chances for trinket procs during BW.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by khalamo


    Originally Posted by Oggy
    Always use FF at 5 stacks instantly. UNLESS your under BW. 1 Sec before or 1 sec after is fine.
    Explain please. If I use it 1 second before BW I will get all the useless haste (already have focus cost reduction and Dire Beast up), and my pet loses quite a bit attack speed for the duration of BW (until new Frenzy stacks).

    Originally Posted by Oggy
    Dont bother with haste untill you have 2 RPPM trinkets AND legendary meta gem AND 2p tier. Still gem max agi.
    I'm 542 ilvl. Haven't reforged into crit for months now. My question is whether agility can outvalue haste rank wise, since quite a few top hunters on WoL have full yellow gems. Just curious if it's just about the trinket procs.

    Originally Posted by Oggy
    This include using FF and RF at the same time.
    Why :>
    When you use FF you gain 30% haste, your pet scales from your haste aswell. So even if your pet looses the FF stacks it indirectly gain haste from your buff. You also drop the pet stacks so it can imidiatly start gaining new. This is the reason you alwasy use FF when at 5 stacks. Again with the exception of when BW is active since its then a lost GCD with focus reduction/damage gain.

    Your Ilvl has nothing to do with if your going crit->haste or haste->crit. Its all dependable of your number of RPPM items.
    Haste (or any 2´ndary stat for that matter) will NEVER outscale pure agility. No matter what funky situation your in. Agility is straight up better.

    You want to stack every buff you can, specially during BW, since it all scales with eachother.

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