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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkDath View Post
    lol....just lol

    Smokebomb is a ridiculously powerful raid CD. Never beaten by an enhance shaman on aoe. Rogues have 100x the survivability/utility of shamans. Cloak, feint, cheat death, elusiveness, vanish, evasion, tricks of the trade. I have probably forgotten some because we have so many.
    I don't think that you can really argue that a Rogue has more raid utility than a class who has Bloodlust, lol. Most of the abilities you are citing are generic defensive CDs that every other class has a better version of, and I can honestly say that Rogue's lack of survivability without a tank / healer is why they are the absolute worst class to do a Heroic Scenario as. Just about every other class in the game can easily tank the entire run, and provide badass off heals, whereas Rogue melts like butter, and can't heal himself from 10% HP to full instantly like every other class can.

    Like just look at this list specifically. Most of the classes who outperform Rogues also have a lot more utility as well. Mage with Time Warp / Food, ability to kite adds, two ice blocks, time warp etc. Warlock can provide portals, lock stones, dark intent, can literally tank dungeons etc. Don't even get me started on being one of the only melee classes in the entire game that doesn't have a battle res either. Warriors get no sympathy from me either because mine literally gets in raids because he has a tanking spec. Literally every day I see "LF melee dps with os for tanking."
    Last edited by achromatickang; 2013-07-11 at 04:09 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Enhance shamans do damn near as much (if not more) damage, bring better AoE and better raid cooldowns. Not to mention WW monks.
    Where are you getting our damage #s from? From where I sit rogues are fantastic right now for DPS - pretty big lead on single target over pretty much everyone. Would like to understand where this is coming from.

    I also don't get where the idea that a bad rogue or bad warlock will perform really badly. Assassination, destruction, and affliction all have really high skill floors... maintaining your dots and pressing the filler with 0 min-maxing is usually half-decent for all 3.

    We ARE extremely gear dependent, which I find somewhat irritating (and I'm currently stuck in combat for having 4 weapon options and a 497 dagger - but that's partly on me not, uh, running a daily scenario just in case)... but that doesn't make us bad DPS.

    WoLogs top 10 across all classes is REALLY irrelevant. We're one of the lowest RNG classes - and we still make three/two rankings in the top 10 Jin'rokh for 10/25H EU/US - over the hyper-RNG fire, and we've got another 4 on 10H Ji'kun - are you going to call for tanks to be nerfed? BM has more rankings than anyone else, period. Beyond that, all damage is not equal.

    If an afflock during the days of broken SB:SS pulls 550k DPS across 4-5 targets, they're doing ~150k to the primary target, whereas the rogue is probably doing 230k or so, and handling interrupts. This doesn't mean Aff isn't strong for that - warlocks are OP on multi-dotting and burst AoE right now, specifically - but you need both. If you don't do enough total damage you hit the soft enrage of "too many shards", and if you don't do enough single target you either die to dark power, don't kill the Loa spirits (enraged/dark power), don't kill Twisted Fate in time, or don't kill Sul before he empowers. Any of those can wipe you, and rogues are stellar single target and decent cleave DPS - making them quite good for killing the prime target, interrupting Sul, making sure Sul dies on time, and getting an increased total DPS (rupture/energy return) from killing Twisted Fates. The two can't be compared in a vacuum.

    On cooldowns: bloodlust is not the be-all end-all because you can only ever use 1. If you've got a singular BM hunter, mage, or shaman of any spec, you're done. If you don't, in 5.4, you're only missing a bit of haste anyway. You're still 90% fine for that CD. Smokebombs can be used to negate some mechanics, and there's no cap on them. Our personal survival is also #2 of top (warlocks being #1 right now, #2 post-5.4). Dungeons are irrelevant, just about anyone can solo them this tier or come pretty close. Other classes might have a better version of something we have, but you can't go down the list of every rogue utility/survival button, pair it against mage/hunter/WW monk/warlock and find a better one in each alternative toolkit.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-07-11 at 04:25 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Enhance shamans do damn near as much (if not more) damage, bring better AoE and better raid cooldowns. Not to mention WW monks.
    Almost every DPS shaman is ele because they're ranged. Enh is really strong though.

    Are WWs strong now? Haven't really seen a good one and they were useless last tier.

  4. #24
    Rogues aren't bad right now. They're pretty close to if not the best PvE Melee DPS atm.

  5. #25
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Almost every DPS shaman is ele because they're ranged. Enh is really strong though.

    Are WWs strong now? Haven't really seen a good one and they were useless last tier.
    I'm almost sure that a GOOD WW Monk with RoRO shenanigans will beat a Rogue on single target everytime.

  6. #26
    When people say rogues are bad its pvp they're talking about. This is hands down the worst expansion for rogues in pvp ever. Pve is fine other than general melee issues in raids which isn't rogue specific.

  7. #27
    IMO Rogues are one of the most fun classes to play solo. You have an approach to the situation that only Feral Druids can emulate, and even then not as well. I'm not as fond of them in group play, but they can have their moments.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    I don't think that you can really argue that a Rogue has more raid utility than a class who has Bloodlust, lol. Most of the abilities you are citing are generic defensive CDs that every other class has a better version of, and I can honestly say that Rogue's lack of survivability without a tank / healer is why they are the absolute worst class to do a Heroic Scenario as. Just about every other class in the game can easily tank the entire run, and provide badass off heals, whereas Rogue melts like butter, and can't heal himself from 10% HP to full instantly like every other class can.

    Like just look at this list specifically. Most of the classes who outperform Rogues also have a lot more utility as well. Mage with Time Warp / Food, ability to kite adds, two ice blocks, time warp etc. Warlock can provide portals, lock stones, dark intent, can literally tank dungeons etc. Don't even get me started on being one of the only melee classes in the entire game that doesn't have a battle res either. Warriors get no sympathy from me either because mine literally gets in raids because he has a tanking spec. Literally every day I see "LF melee dps with os for tanking."
    I'm getting tired of people complaining about rogues being bad in heroic scenarios. I've beaten the timer in every heroic scenario easily with much time to spare on my rogue. Sure rogues have a hard time toe to toe tanking but that's not a rogue's play style. Rogues have always been a run up burst, stun, control then reset class trying to control the fight through stuns and smart play rather than being a retarded meat shield who stands there and face rolls without thinking. One of the reasons I've always loved my rogue in pvp or now heroic scenarios is that I can swallow my pride and admit I'm going to sacrifice my dps to help the group and control the fight and let other people blow it up. Be smart. Run in, sap one target, blind another, then control a third with stuns and you cause less damage to be taken than any other class out there. We're one of those only classes who can effectively long term CC 2 targets at once. And in doing so there's still a good chance that you will top dps just cause rogues are super high dps... a good ele shaman will probably beat you in dps just because chain lightning is op in cleave situations. Honestly any rogue who has trouble in a heroic scenario has more of a learn to play your class than a rogue class balance issue.

    Utility wise rogues probably battle warlocks the most and maybe hunters with their wide variety of buffs they bring but aside from that rogues can do pretty much everything a hunter can and more. And mage food doesn't count as "utility". Mage food is for people who are too lazy to buy cheap food before they get to a raid. But with survivability and raid cooldowns rogues are definitely at the top.

    Rogues are one of the only melee classes that can battle ress? Lets see how many battle resses are there? Druids (all specs), DKs, and locks (paladins if they get symbiosis but still that's a druid). Melee wise warriors, enh. shaman, ret paladins, monks and rogues do not get a battle ress. So... 2 melee get it 4 don't... your argument is invalid.

    World of logs is one of the worst things to go by especially later in tier after people have done the encounters over and over and over again. RNG has a huge factor which is why the top 10 ranking isn't the same person 10 times since if they were the best typically they should have the top 10 parses. Don't even see a person up their twice. When a person has 20% crit and manages to get a lucky night and pulls 40% crit it greatly skews their average DPS. Also guilds will frequently try to fudge encounters and do things to try and get a person to stack damage such as feeding them a bunch of tricks or whatever.

    I really think that rogues are simply one of the strongest classes period just that MoP so far has been rather unfriendly to melee in general (in that melee gets an easy job of sitting on a boss and dpsing but you need a lot of ranged to actually complete class mechanics). Aside from AoE vs single target fights my dps doesn't really spike all that much and in general is very consistent. Compared to a fire mage who before every raid has to pray to RNJesus for good luck or even an elemental shaman who outside of a cleave environment are heavily dependent on lava surge procs. Personally I like that since if you're in a tight DPS situation it sucks having to rely on a lucky streak vs. just knowing you're going to be awesome.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by zanexlol View Post
    I was waiting for your "PvP perspective-", ctrl+f'd, "pvp", and what do you know.

    Most people complaining are referring to PvP. The others are just morons, since we actually are good in PvE.
    I think you and Squirl misunderstand. When the bosses I listed were on progression, cheat death helped a lot. On Jin'rokh when healers couldn't keep up with healing and dodging bolts or when you are sitting near death on Animus before one of the last interrupting jolts, cheat death helps you out. Of course when you get to farming 13/13 week in and week out, using cheat death is kind of silly unless you plan on doing things like stay in the pools and ignore bolts on Jin'rokh.

    EDIT: welp, I noticed I posted with the wrong account. Oh well

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    There's that too. It's mostly just the (lack of) fun factor that makes rogues not like being a rogue.

    I go back and forth, but I generally like the way Assassination plays. Combat is fun if you get into optimizing that last 1-5% dps, but AR+SB with a .5s GCD is fucking horrendous.
    I agree so much with this. For me (in PVE) I only have fun playing Assassination and it has been my favourite spec since ICC. Combat has been awful to play since ICC when it was more about damage than spamming, and Sub is so clunky and I only played it in tiers 12 and 13 because it was miles away top single target damage, and Combat was the other spec because of BF.

    I would love a revamp of Combat to reduce energy regen and increase damage elsewhere, and I would love Sub to be revamped and positional requirements removed. Otherwise, my heart will sink if/when Assassination ceases to be the best single target spec.

  11. #31
    Rogues are just suffering from an old class/mechanic design which has basucally never changed in years. But their performance is really good.

    Many people find the class boring, thus they label it as bad.

  12. #32
    Keyboard Turner Kaspyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Rogues are just suffering from an old class/mechanic design which has basucally never changed in years. But their performance is really good.

    Many people find the class boring, thus they label it as bad.
    It wasn't until I gave my rogue a true shot fairly recently that I really fell in love with him. I had been maining a prot pally, but we needed DPS for our raid team and I got my DK up, found I wasn't as happy as I used to be with her and decided to try to ding 90 on the rogue (finally).

    I thought rogues were "bad" too until I gave it a real chance. Now, I found my new main!

  13. #33
    Took me awhile to realize OP was talking about rogue gameplay/mechanics and not some community thing against rogues. I thought it was weird cause I don't remember people saying rogues (the community/players) are bad but it does seem like lots of people don't like rogues at higher levels. In classic WOW, I know lots of people hated rogues... mostly had to do with how OP they were compared to everyone else, but that was almost 10 years ago, and frankly they have never been so stupidly OP since. I mean they've still had periods where top geared rogues could burst someone down in an initial stunlock, but that was the same in classic WOW (actually it was even worse for most of the classes vs rogue, even played really well).

    Personally I never played my rogue past 85 in Cata and I didn't even do much with him after I got him to 85. A lot of it has to do with how all the fun stuff for me with a rogue is pretty much pointless/useless at max level, like sapping and using stealth's utility skills, and basically everything that wasn't DPSing. I don't even think rogue DPS is bad (from a numbers POV) but I've almost always found combat/assassination boring as far as rotations go, and sub feels clunky in PVE.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroy View Post
    I think you and Squirl misunderstand. When the bosses I listed were on progression, cheat death helped a lot. On Jin'rokh when healers couldn't keep up with healing and dodging bolts or when you are sitting near death on Animus before one of the last interrupting jolts, cheat death helps you out. Of course when you get to farming 13/13 week in and week out, using cheat death is kind of silly unless you plan on doing things like stay in the pools and ignore bolts on Jin'rokh.

    EDIT: welp, I noticed I posted with the wrong account. Oh well
    I was referring to progression too.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Omgarsh View Post
    Took me awhile to realize OP was talking about rogue gameplay/mechanics and not some community thing against rogues. I thought it was weird cause I don't remember people saying rogues (the community/players) are bad but it does seem like lots of people don't like rogues at higher levels. In classic WOW, I know lots of people hated rogues... mostly had to do with how OP they were compared to everyone else, but that was almost 10 years ago, and frankly they have never been so stupidly OP since. I mean they've still had periods where top geared rogues could burst someone down in an initial stunlock, but that was the same in classic WOW (actually it was even worse for most of the classes vs rogue, even played really well).

    Personally I never played my rogue past 85 in Cata and I didn't even do much with him after I got him to 85. A lot of it has to do with how all the fun stuff for me with a rogue is pretty much pointless/useless at max level, like sapping and using stealth's utility skills, and basically everything that wasn't DPSing. I don't even think rogue DPS is bad (from a numbers POV) but I've almost always found combat/assassination boring as far as rotations go, and sub feels clunky in PVE.
    I made this thread due to the fact that so many threads out there end up in a tirade of "OMG ROGUES ARE SO BAD" and people just complain about them. Sure in a pvp gank situation every class that gets ganked complains that the ganker's class is OP... but that's just the nature of a gank. You catch someone unaware and have a huge advantage of getting the jump on them not that a class is OP but people complain anyways and I think a lot of rogues get flak for that since I think the type of person who plays a rogue is generally a ganker.

    I just didn't understand why so many rogues always have to chime in random posts about how the class is bad. But, from the overall response it seems to be more in agreement that rogues are good but boring (which I don't think so I think we can do a lot in a raid to spice it up) but the people who think the class is "bad" are probably just bad themselves.

  16. #36
    They don't have cool raid tools like DKs and Warriors do - and they're boring (in that all 3 specs play similarly) - which is a problem with Hunters, too - but they have more to micro-manage than Rogues do.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkDath View Post
    lol....just lol

    Smokebomb is a ridiculously powerful raid CD. Never beaten by an enhance shaman on aoe. Rogues have 100x the survivability/utility of shamans. Cloak, feint, cheat death, elusiveness, vanish, evasion, tricks of the trade. I have probably forgotten some because we have so many.
    What about on singletarget? Maybe your enhance shamans just suck? Look at worldoflogs and parses for most guilds, enhance shamans are keeping up with/passing rogues. You can't just name random moves and act like Shamans don't have equivalent moves that do similar things, especially since you mentioned both CD and Elusiveness. You're forgetting that one red move (can't remember the name) for shamans that is basically barkskin.

    And if you really think that smoke bomb in 25mans is as powerful as a heroism or stormlash totem you're sorely mistaken. Smoke bomb is strong, but it's one of the weakest raid cooldowns around, and tricks is just laughable. 15% increased damage for 6 seconds on a 30 second CD is pretty laughable overall. That's 3 moves for most people, potentially 4.

    No one is saying rogues are weak in PvE, but we're also not at the top of the pack and we bring less to the raid than most other classes. DPS warriors bring WAY more than we do to the table.

    And I can tell you for a fact (since the OP didn't clarify whether or not he was talking about PvE vs PvP) that rogues are bad in PvP. I've gotten gladiator every single season that I've pushed for it, on multiple characters and classes and I can tell you that rogues right now are pretty awful. Like, near where druids were right after the took gladiator away from 2s in s7 (8?)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    On cooldowns: bloodlust is not the be-all end-all because you can only ever use 1. If you've got a singular BM hunter, mage, or shaman of any spec, you're done. If you don't, in 5.4, you're only missing a bit of haste anyway. You're still 90% fine for that CD. Smokebombs can be used to negate some mechanics, and there's no cap on them. Our personal survival is also #2 of top (warlocks being #1 right now, #2 post-5.4). Dungeons are irrelevant, just about anyone can solo them this tier or come pretty close. Other classes might have a better version of something we have, but you can't go down the list of every rogue utility/survival button, pair it against mage/hunter/WW monk/warlock and find a better one in each alternative toolkit.
    Bloodlust is pretty damn good, stormlash is pretty damn great. I'm not saying rogues are bad or that enhance shamans or WW monks do more damage than we do. I'm saying that they (WW monks in particular, who are definitely ahead of us in damage consistently) bring way more to the group than we do. If our damage is ahead (which it really isn't compared to WW monks), it's not by enough to make up for the poor raid cooldowns we bring in comparison. Smoke bomb is fine and all, but it's just not on the same level as almost anyone else's defensive raid CDs. Not to mention our piss poor AoE compared to WW monks, and target-swap ability.

  18. #38
    It just comes down to Rogues being boring. That's really all there is to it.
    Regardless whether they're good or bad in PvE or PvP, they are simply BORING.

    I've been playing DK since Wrath; and Mage & Rogue since BC.
    I've done high MMR arena and heroic PvE on all three.
    DK's resource system is the best designed in the game. It's fluid and doesn't leave you doing nothing for any length of time. All 3 specs play completely differently and have different strengths.
    Same for Mage; aside from the resource bit.

    With Rogue, you're doing the same general thing across all 3 specs - and it's as simple as pooling energy for CDs or keeping jupture rolling on as many things as possible.
    It's extremely binary, and nothing's changed between expansions.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    I don't think that you can really argue that a Rogue has more raid utility than a class who has Bloodlust, lol. Most of the abilities you are citing are generic defensive CDs that every other class has a better version of, and I can honestly say that Rogue's lack of survivability without a tank / healer is why they are the absolute worst class to do a Heroic Scenario as. Just about every other class in the game can easily tank the entire run, and provide badass off heals, whereas Rogue melts like butter, and can't heal himself from 10% HP to full instantly like every other class can.

    Like just look at this list specifically. Most of the classes who outperform Rogues also have a lot more utility as well. Mage with Time Warp / Food, ability to kite adds, two ice blocks, time warp etc. Warlock can provide portals, lock stones, dark intent, can literally tank dungeons etc. Don't even get me started on being one of the only melee classes in the entire game that doesn't have a battle res either. Warriors get no sympathy from me either because mine literally gets in raids because he has a tanking spec. Literally every day I see "LF melee dps with os for tanking."
    Sure, I can. We run usually 2 shaman and 2 mages at least. Want to know what 3 of their lust/time warps do? Absolutely nothing. 1 person is all you need and the rest add no utility. Every rogue always adds a smoke bomb. Smoke bomb is infinitely stackable. Lust, you get one and all the others are worthless. So add another mage/shaman to our raid and the utility we gain from his lust/warp is 0. Add another rogue to our raid and the utility we gain from his bomb is not 0.

    And really, you want to include extremely generic raid buffs like dark intent? We have a couple of those too as does every single damn class in the game. Ability to kite? Rogues can kite... almost every damn class can kite. You are just spewing every minor thing you can think of no matter how trivial and no matter if rogues and every other class does it too.

    And the battle res... again you get 3 total (or 1 in 10m). 4 classes can battle res. I don't see how you are filling a raid with anything resembling a decent comp without one. One of the only melee without one you say? You sound incredibly ignorant of class mechanics. 2 classes that can melee have battle resses. Paladins (holy can get one but the melee paladins relevant here can not), shamans, rogues, warriors, and monks do not have battle resses. Thats 2 with and 5 without.

    These rogues you do heroic scenario's with must be as ignorant about rogues as you. I can tank a heroic scenario just fine. No, I can't full heal from 10%, but that doesn't matter because I don't drop that low.

    And one of your selling points is tanking dungeons... I can tank every dungeon on my rogue just fine (actually I bet any melee dps could).
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-07-12 at 05:12 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Sure, I can. We run usually 2 shaman and 2 mages at least. Want to know what 3 of their lust/time warps do? Absolutely nothing. 1 person is all you need and the rest add no utility. Every rogue always adds a smoke bomb. Smoke bomb is infinitely stackable. Lust, you get one and all the others are worthless. So add another mage/shaman to our raid and the utility we gain from his lust/warp is 0. Add another rogue to our raid and the utility we gain from his bomb is not 0.

    And really, you want to include extremely generic raid buffs like dark intent? We have a couple of those too as does every single damn class in the game. Ability to kite? Rogues can kite... almost every damn class can kite. You are just spewing every minor thing you can think of no matter how trivial and no matter if rogues and every other class does it too.

    And the battle res... again you get 3 total (or 1 in 10m). 4 classes can battle res. I don't see how you are filling a raid with anything resembling a decent comp without one. One of the only melee without one you say? You sound incredibly ignorant of class mechanics. 2 classes that can melee have battle resses. Paladins (holy can get one but the melee paladins relevant here can not), shamans, rogues, warriors, and monks do not have battle resses. Thats 2 with and 5 without.

    These rogues you do heroic scenario's with must be as ignorant about rogues as you. I can tank a heroic scenario just fine. No, I can't full heal from 10%, but that doesn't matter because I don't drop that low.

    And one of your selling points is tanking dungeons... I can tank every dungeon on my rogue just fine (actually I bet any melee dps could).
    You're being more than a little overzealous in the second half of this.
    All Rogues really bring isthe fact that they take very little damage when compared to other classes; and they can smoke bomb every 5mins (if everyone stacks in it, which isnt possible on many encounters).

    Rogue raid utility comes down to Smoke Bomb and their own survivability. That's pretty much it.
    They're not that great at switching targets, and they don't AoE very well in many situations.
    It's fine that they're focused on single-target; and 1-target cleave - but it's lame how all 3 specs effectively play the same - and that the spec that pulls the numbers now has more waiting than ability use, in the rotation.

    I would rather be playing a DK; which has a smoother resource system and with each spec playing completely differently - and has a shorter cooldown on their magic-damage preventer; which gives them DPS - as well as AMZ; which accounts for more damage reduction and can be used more freuqently than Smoke Bomb.

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