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  1. #1

    Why do people think rogues are bad?

    Every time I read a thread on this forum some person always has to chime in with "rogues are bad" or some variation of that.

    Does anyone have any actual facts of why a rogue is a bad class right now? Especially when people compare rogues vs the rest of the classes so many people say that rogues are horrible. But, what makes them so much worse than everyone else?

    From a PvE perspective personally I'd think they were one of the strongest classes period and definitely the strongest melee.

    Rogues do great damage both single target as well as aoe rogues are top notch especially assassination which is a very forgiving spec and allows for some slop and to still perform sometimes better than it's simmed dps ranking. In a pure cleave fight a rogue can spec combat for one of the strongest cleaves in the game and for a situation with more mobs assassination is a very strong aoe.

    Rogues take less damage than any other class out there. Thanks to feint rogues are the easiest healed class in the game and where most classes are taking ridiculous aoe damage from boss mechanics rogues trivialize the matter.

    Rogues also have very strong personal defense cooldowns including cheat death, evasion, combat readiness, feint, vanish, stuns on adds and the strongest being cloak of shadows which is by far one of the strongest cool downs in the game period. My warrior friend complained that warrior vs rogue if a tank dies a warrior dies almost for sure but a rogue has the best chance with which to stay alive for the tank to get battle rezzed and the fight to go on.

    Rogues have very strong raid utility as well. Smoke bomb being an amazing raid wall as well as being a fun gimmick vs ranged bosses like the frost king. Tricks of the trade is very good as well adding to tank threat at the beginning of a pull (when everyone is blowing their CDs and has their highest dps during the fight and yet the tank hasn't had a chance to build up vengeance) as well as helping control adds in a fight or increasing another member's dps which misdirect doesn't do making it a more versatile cooldown than MD.

    So with all the utility and strong dps that a rogue brings to a fight why do so many people complain about them being horrible? Is it an ignorance problem where they're just bad and don't realize how strong rogues are? Or am I missing something here? Personally in my raid I think I'm a very strong addition to it and that I bring a lot to the table. I can't think of a reason why me being in the raid is horrible and having any other class (if rogues really are the worse) would benefit the raid more than having me there.

  2. #2
    Bad rogues are bad. There are a lot of bad rogues.

    We're by far the strongest melee to bring to any raid team (for all the reasons you've listed; I won't retype them all). Warrior also has some great utility (banners, shouts), but their damage hasn't been there this tier. Rets are in the same boat with pretty great utility (AM, BoP, offheals, Sac, etc.) and lower damage, but to a lesser degree (and you really only need 1 pally in a 10m). Dks have some niche usefulness (Mal Grasp on Lei Shen) and their damage is solid, but they lack real raid utility.

    They could also be referring to PvP where we've been pretty useless lately. If they're referring to PvE, it's just ignorance or they've only encountered bad rogues.

  3. #3
    Try playing combat with 4pc t15 then maybe u will understand.
    It's not a matter of dps, neither of raid utility (though rogue utility in raid is very debatable), it's a matter of FUN and honestly i don't think it's an insignificant matter, after all, why do we play? For money? Cyber-glory/e-peen? No, we play for fun and when something it's not fun i see no reason to keep playing, rogue gameplay pve-wise is boring to death and absolutely no fun at all from my pov, there's little to none rng, no flexibility in your rotation, you never have to think "mmh should i use skill X or skill Y now?" and don't forget the absolutely stupid talent tree where in some tiers u gotta pick the least useless talent while in others (last in particulary) there are talents so much stronger than others that there's no reason for other two talents in that tier to exist, seriously is there any rogue retarded enough to pick cnd or nightstalker for pve? Actually rogue talents are more cookie cutter than ever despite the fact that the reason behind mop talents was to remove cookie cutter specs, back in cata i used some odd specs for particular encounters (hc valiona, hc morchok for example), could i still do this in mop? No way!
    Last edited by D3athsting; 2013-07-10 at 11:06 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Try playing combat with 4pc t15 then maybe u will understand.
    It's not a matter of dps, neither of raid utility (though rogue utility in raid is very debatable), it's a matter of FUN
    Except that not everyone is there.

    There are plenty of people complaining that rogues are BAD DPS in PvE content - why, I really don't know either, but on a daily or near-daily occurrence, someone complains that rogues are bad DPS, or bad single-target, when we're literally the top of the chart for single target (excepting some absurd tank-related encounters). We also have the highest melee survival and 2nd-highest survival in the PvE game right now (perhaps highest after the nerf to Soul Leech for warlocks - no more 0 damage taken kills) and we're not especially lacking in utility since the smoke bomb change and the upcoming AoE reduced armor (although I'd never object to a buff to our utility).

    I do think we need a revamp or at least some major changes - but we've got several threads asking about that, and I'd like to see this dedicated to anyone who does think our damage is terrible. If you do - please, let me know why, and we'll see if we can help you. Rogue damage shouldn't be low.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    [rogues are not fun]
    There's that too. It's mostly just the (lack of) fun factor that makes rogues not like being a rogue.

    I go back and forth, but I generally like the way Assassination plays. Combat is fun if you get into optimizing that last 1-5% dps, but AR+SB with a .5s GCD is fucking horrendous.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Try playing combat with 4pc t15 then maybe u will understand.
    It's not a matter of dps, neither of raid utility (though rogue utility in raid is very debatable), it's a matter of FUN and honestly i don't think it's an insignificant matter, after all, why do we play? For money? Cyber-glory/e-peen? No, we play for fun and when something it's not fun i see no reason to keep playing, rogue gameplay pve-wise is boring to death and absolutely no fun at all from my pov, there's little to none rng, no flexibility in your rotation, you never have to think "mmh should i use skill X or skill Y now?" and don't forget the absolutely stupid talent tree where in some tiers u gotta pick the least useless talent while in others (last in particulary) there are talents so much stronger than others that there's no reason for other two talents in that tier to exist, seriously is there any rogue retarded enough to pick cnd or nightstalker for pve? Actually rogue talents are more cookie cutter than ever despite the fact that the reason behind mop talents was to remove cookie cutter specs, back in cata i used some odd specs for particular encounters (hc valiona, hc morchok in particular), could i still do this in mop? No way!
    If you don't like combat then don't play it?

    As far as talents go I've used every talent for some reason so far and I find myself swapping between a lot of them depending on the circumstance. The nature of the beast is that some talents are going to be stronger than others but I don't think that blizz wants you to be able to roll a 3 sided dice 6 times and have the to randomly pick out an awesome spec for you.

    These are my opinions on the talents:

    Subterfuge is strong in pvp, Shadow Focus is strong in PvE. Nightstalker isn't necessarily a strong dps boost but it's fun for running old content or just zooming around in stealth with burst of speed for whatever reason. It's really good for doing treasure trove runs and the best talent for that for instance.

    Deadly Throw is strong pvp as well as pve if you need extra interupts, combat readiness is an all around good choice, nerve strike seems a little weak comparatively but it's decent in pvp and for solo farming.

    Cheat Death is strong in pvp and pve when elusiveness isn't stronger, elusiveness is a must have for any aoe fight, leeching poison is probably the weakest since the healing it provides is pretty minimal but for solo use it's really good to use.

    Cloak & dagger is pretty weak right now with the shadow dance nerf, shadow step and burst of speed are both good. I really really really like burst of speed and the buff it's getting in 5.4 makes it even stronger.

    Prey on the weak is pretty weak over all since 99% of the time in a raid stuns are useless and even when they are useful, paralytic poison is really good for pvp, dirty tricks is probably the most useful in the lv75 tier but all in all the lv 75 tier is a little weak and boring.

    Shuriken toss is awesome for kiting stuff and a lot of people take it for various times when you need to kite/ranged an add. Marked for death is amazing for any boss with adds as well as pvp and anticipation is just amazing for any other situation.

    All in all the talents are well varied and useful in different situations and I find myself respeccing/glyphing multiple times in a raid so I think blizz did a good job over all on the talents. Some could use buffs and some really aren't too useful (nerve strike/prey on the weak personally I'd think are the worse talents that could be redone to be made more useful) but over all there is a large amount of talents to chose from that are all useful in some way or another.

  7. #7
    Lol @ cheat death being useful, it should be renamed "delay death", cauterize is 100 times better...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Lol @ cheat death being useful, it should be renamed "delay death", cauterize is 100 times better...
    Cheat death is absolutely amazing. I don't know what you do in-game where you believe cheat death isn't good but it is a life saver on fights like Jin'rokh, Dark Animus, and Lei Shen (speaking from a heroic standpoint).
    Dropndestroy | i7-3770k 4.6Ghz | EVGA GTX 680 SC Signature+ SLI | ASUS Maximus V Formula | G.Skill 16gb 2400 | AX850

  9. #9
    Its similar to warlocks

    The 2 classes had a small following back in the day so it was harder to find reliable info on rotation and stuff

    A bad warlock is really bad
    A bad rogue is really really bad

    If either are good then they are really really good

    Theres like no gray area skill on these 2

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroyrr View Post
    I don't know what you do in-game where you believe cheat death isn't good but it is a life saver on fights like Jin'rokh, Dark Animus, and Lei Shen (speaking from a heroic standpoint).
    I don't die because I use Feint and Cloak and I don't stand in bad things. Cheat Death is only good if you die. Elusiveness outshines it on every single fight this tier.

    The last time I ran Cheat Death was for H Empress to avoid getting instagibbed by the fixating adds (essentially unpreventable death without Cheat Death or plate), which gave me two swings to Vanish rather than just one that could happen instantly.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire zanexlol's Avatar
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    I was waiting for your "PvP perspective-", ctrl+f'd, "pvp", and what do you know.

    Most people complaining are referring to PvP. The others are just morons, since we actually are good in PvE.
    Yes, we are an ape with a symbiotic relationship to a mushroom.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Bad rogues are bad. There are a lot of bad rogues.

    We're by far the strongest melee to bring to any raid team (for all the reasons you've listed; I won't retype them all). Warrior also has some great utility (banners, shouts), but their damage hasn't been there this tier. Rets are in the same boat with pretty great utility (AM, BoP, offheals, Sac, etc.) and lower damage, but to a lesser degree (and you really only need 1 pally in a 10m). Dks have some niche usefulness (Mal Grasp on Lei Shen) and their damage is solid, but they lack real raid utility.

    They could also be referring to PvP where we've been pretty useless lately. If they're referring to PvE, it's just ignorance or they've only encountered bad rogues.
    Enhance shamans do damn near as much (if not more) damage, bring better AoE and better raid cooldowns. Not to mention WW monks.

  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans Ihnasir's Avatar
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    There's a lot of bad rogues following the massive influx of created rogues in 4.3 with the false hope of obtaining Legendary daggers. Now that the have leveled past that, they don't know a damn thing.

    My rogue isn't awful (I was top of the dps meters in every dungeon in did 85-90) but I can't stand the playstyle, plus I can't do pvp, so I am a bad rogue. I just wanted my 10th 90.

  14. #14
    Couple of Reasons:

    Rogues are really gear dependent. This means that under-geared Rogues tend to perform horribly in PVE.

    In PVP, Rogue is one of the highest skill cap classes in the entire game. The average player will generally have much more success playing a Warrior, Feral, Ret, Death Knight etc. than playing a Rogue. There really isn't a middle ground for Rogues in PVP due to the skill cap being so high.
    Last edited by achromatickang; 2013-07-11 at 03:34 AM.

  15. #15
    Rogues are my favorite class and the one I feel I'm the strongest at in PVE and PVP. The only thing I feel they lack in comparison to my other classes is soloing viability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

  16. #16
    Rogue is a class that takes a certain type of player. They need to be able to sit there and play. Like it's been said, rogue isn't fun. It definitely not fun to level, especially these days. The lack of AOE while leveling kills it for a lot of people interested in giving the class a try. They have to pick combat for any amount of fast dungeoning or they fall behind in overall damage behind mages or whatever else is in the group. The class has nothing special about it while leveling, period. You don't start really having fun until much later in the leveling experience. Now, I haven't leveled one since Cata, but my god; It was annoying to be sitting in an instance, only having single target, and doing SIGNIFICANTLY less damage than everyone else, healers included.

    Not only is the leveling experience just flat boring and bad... Rogue specs aren't that diverse. If you look at any class and compare it with a rogue, all three specs are essentially the same. You have your main generator (backstab/mut/ss), Rupture, Slice and Dice, and your typical finisher (Evic/Envenom). There's nothing different except for how frequently you use some abilities (Example: Slice and Dice with Mut vs combat/sub), and your AOE. Combat runs Blade Flurry, and the other two specs run Fan of Knives. The only REAL differences in the specs are Assassination's execute (Dispatch), Hemo for Sub, and their cooldowns.

    To me, this has been a serious issue for me. I've been playing Rogue as my main since I started playing way back in BC. It's repetitive and nothing really has changed for Rogues since the beginning. Occasionally, there's a change like Dispatch or Blade Flurry, or something new is added like Cloak or Smokebomb. But it doesn't change the way the class plays, at all.

    PVE wise, Rogues have really nothing going for them other than their high damage capabilities and (Finally) a raid cool down.

    It kills me to say it, because I love the class through and through, but Rogues are just boring as shit-- not bad.
    Meep~

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by achromatickang View Post
    In PVP, Rogue is one of the highest skill cap classes in the entire game. The average player will generally have much more success playing a Warrior, Feral, Ret, Death Knight etc. than playing a Rogue. There really isn't a middle ground for Rogues in PVP due to the skill cap being so high.
    I..wouldn't exactly throw out the "this is the highest skill cap class" thing so quickly, just about every class does and it really is a matter of personal experience in most cases, I've seen someone simply DESTROY people with a rogue who just plain couldn't PVP as a feral or warrior. and vice versa some people who are really good with a class may not play it simply because, to them, it's boring. from what I've noted rogues have actually become steadily more viable in PVP this expansion since their low point a few patches back to the point where I'm seeing regular complaints in game of rogues just constantly resetting the fight whenever things turn against them only to come back and gank someone, or simply pull out a moment of burst (which EVERY class can do and regularly get complained about for) that manages to take someone down in the space of a CC spam. I seriously wouldn't consider rogue, or any class right now, bad due to the fact that several complaints for and against each class are from less than impartial judges ("that rogue just ganked me, they need to have their damage nerfed" "that feral just removed roots at the cost of some mana and time they could've been in combat, let's give more of their mobility to monks!" (I didn't say I wasn't biased, just that others are too))...so yeah rogue may lack some things but they also have advantages over other classes in other things, the only time I've ever seen ANYONE manage to pull off a more infuriating fight reset than a rogue is a paladin bubbling and using both rocket boots and glider to run away so they can get on a flying mount..
    ...at this point it's almost guaranteed that "war in warcraft" is garrosh getting on his incompetent podium to declare yet another group his enemy for the crime of breathing his air, alliance saying this is horde favoritism, and the more....special....yes.. let's go with special... horde players seeing garrosh as a god because he lets them attack the alliance players who keep saying that out being led by a moron is horde favoritism.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Enhance shamans do damn near as much (if not more) damage, bring better AoE and better raid cooldowns. Not to mention WW monks.
    lol....just lol

    Smokebomb is a ridiculously powerful raid CD. Never beaten by an enhance shaman on aoe. Rogues have 100x the survivability/utility of shamans. Cloak, feint, cheat death, elusiveness, vanish, evasion, tricks of the trade. I have probably forgotten some because we have so many.

  19. #19
    Ive never seen anyone claim that rogues are bad. Like a serious argument. There will always been bad players but the class itself has "a" really good single target dps spec for PVE. I wish I had mained mine this xpac over my dk.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  20. #20
    i have no idea about top end, i'm only leveling now, but i'm finding them really fun. he's around 60 now, but i've been having a blast tbh. top damage in dungeons on bosses, second in trash (no aoe and gl beating a tank on trash) and i'm doing fairly well in the odd random BG. that being said, even though i have dual spec, i only use assassination, i tried both combat and subtlety and i don't seem to come close to how i do with assassination (might have something to do with dispatch being really good when leveling).

    if i keep at it, it would be my 6th 90, but definitely the most fun melee i've tried so far (only one i've not tried at 60 at least is enh sham)

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