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  1. #41
    If it was on EVERY SINGLE fight. Then sure, its OP as hell.

    Its not on every single fight. Its on 2 fights which have a lot of stacking, using AG from an extremely geared Shaman, timed with cooldowns and it requires a DPS sacrifice.

    Its lining up the PERFECT situation to get those numbers.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Rarch View Post
    I'm not sure why people are trying to say this isn't OP. It's honestly almost as funny as Mages having a thread on their forums to discuss their lack of raid utility. (Seriously, how about all 3 specs being in the top 5 DPS is your utility?) Having 100k+ HPS sustained for an entire fight is not even close to the same as an 8s damage reduction CD that can be added to the CD rotation to help control damage from specific devastating abilities.
    So, having 100k hps for one fight, out of 13, and that fight being a heroic-mode only, makes enhancement healing OP? Hardly. You're simply trying to pass your opinion off as if it were fact. You need to substantiate your position, if you're going to make this claim. Also, if that 8 second CD makes the difference between living and dying, then I could use your logic to make the same unsubstantiated argument that it's OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rarch View Post
    I understand you don't want to get nerfed into the ground, but when you can entirely replace a healer and still do second to top DPS, there's a problem. Sure, it's one encounter, or rather, one set of specific elements that combine to make this an issue, but it's still an issue, and it needs to be addressed.
    First, lowering enhancement's ability to heal, is not a nerf into the ground. Second, we're already very strong on raid boss dps, and bring several other nifty toys, besides just the heals. Third, are you not aware that Blizz discussed their intention (last xpac, iirc) to allow some hybrid dps off-healing, so that a 3rd healer wasn't needed, on an otherwise 2-heal fight? (or 4 vs. 3, 6 vs. 5, etc.)

    Lastly, you say it's an issue that needs to be addressed. How is it a problem? And, how is doing 2nd-to-last healing, on ONE fight hurting you, specifically?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rarch View Post
    I don't think Enh healing should get a straight out nerf, per se, like just a flat adjustment to Healing Storm or whatever, but something definitely needs to be tweaked. Maybe have Healing Storm add 20% per stack to single target heals and 5% per stack to AoE heals (or even just Healing Rain). Also, adding the 14 target buff (in 25 mans) to Healing Rain through Purification instead of as a base addition to Healing Rain might be a good idea as well. Both of those changes would be a huge nerf to Enh Healing Rain healing specifically, but adding HTT to your already immense healing kit makes up for that.
    Why does something definitely need to be tweaked? Are you suggesting that 5.4 will see enhancement replacing MS healers on a consistent basis? If so, based on what data?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rarch View Post
    Either way, I wouldn't try to argue that it isn't OP, because no one's going to believe you. I would instead try to figure out how to fix the situations where it is very obviously OP without nerfing one of the truly interesting and engaging parts of your spec into the ground as a byproduct.
    1. You don't speak for everyone.
    2. "Very obviously OP" by what criteria? Your opinion doesn't qualify as "obviously" or factual.

    Bring some substantiation into your argument, and then we can have something to talk about. See also Tibbee's post, where he makes the very relevant point that, in general, a dps' healing rains should never out-perform a resto shaman's healing rains (assuming same/similar gear). I fully agree with him, on that, but I question whether it's HR that's OP, or the nature of enhancement's stats vs. resto's stats, or if it's simply resto's mastery that's the problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    No, I am also basing this off my own logs. For example, here is healing in P2 of this week's Ra-Den kill.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e/?s=585&e=718

    Our enhancement Shaman's Healing Rain did 16.5 million healing, and my Healing Rain did 12.4 million healing. I think it is problematic for a DPS spec to get ~35% more healing from a core raid healing ability (regardless of what glyphs and Maelstrom procs, etc) than a healing spec. He actually also outhealed one of our Holy Pallies.

    Obviously, Ra-Den is a special case, but I think that at minimum - Healing Rain - even with the Healing Storm glyph and MWx5, needs to not outperform Resto Healing Rain.
    Fair enough, but so far, we're looking at only two logs, from top guilds, with geared-out-the-ass players, on the one same heroic fight. How about enhancement HR versus resto HR, in general?

    I agree that, in general, enhancement's HR shouldn't out-do resto's HR. But, what I'm questioning, is whether this occurrence is isolated, for some reason, or if it truly is a generality.

    I'd like to know your thoughts on the following:

    - Is there a gimmick mechanic on Ra-den, that is causing enh to out-perform resto, with regard to HR?
    - Is this due to resto's mastery failing? (i.e., if the raid wasn't staying closer to topped-off, would we see resto's HR pull well ahead of enhancement's HR?) Also, on that note, does the raid pretty much stay topped off, on Ra-den?
    - Is this due to enhancement having more haste & crit than resto does, making HR perform better?
    - Did Blizz possibly overtune mental quickness, in regard to healing, in their attempt to improve our dps?
    - Is this due to enhancement being able to strategically and instantly place HR, in response-healing, versus resto placing HR in advance-healing?
    - Is this due to enhancement's HR sniping resto's HR?
    - If the healing storm glyph were to be reduced to say, 10% extra healing, per MSW stack, would that, in turn, nerf AG, HTT, HST, and/or CH? If so, would that present a problem for either PvE or PvP?

  3. #43
    If the Resto shaman is playing properly, they should not be getting outhealed by Enhancement on Ra-Den. Enhancement should only be putting down HR in the second phase, and yes, it does a whole lot of healing, but other than the one AG used, it's the only source of healing and even moreso it's the perfect condition for enhancement, a burn phase in which everyone is fully stacked. This isn't going to happen every boss and as can be seen in Siege, there's a lot of spreading in which HR will not be healing much at all. Also bear in mind that any effect caused by healing rain for resto is not duplicated for enhancement. Our entire output is in that one spell, and it is not providing any secondary effects, which should be taken into account.

    A healing storm glyph nerf would be questionable. That glyph has been ingame since the start of the expansion. If people are only now calling it out on being OP, why wasn't it noticed for the first half of the expansion? It's strong raid utility but it actually requires a modicum of input, it isn't just pressing rallying cry when the rampage is coming, surely that should be encouraged?
    Enhancement Shaman | Feral Druid | Windwalker Monk

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    If the Resto shaman is playing properly, they should not be getting outhealed by Enhancement on Ra-Den. Enhancement should only be putting down HR in the second phase, and yes, it does a whole lot of healing, but other than the one AG used, it's the only source of healing and even moreso it's the perfect condition for enhancement, a burn phase in which everyone is fully stacked. This isn't going to happen every boss and as can be seen in Siege, there's a lot of spreading in which HR will not be healing much at all. Also bear in mind that any effect caused by healing rain for resto is not duplicated for enhancement. Our entire output is in that one spell, and it is not providing any secondary effects, which should be taken into account.

    A healing storm glyph nerf would be questionable. That glyph has been ingame since the start of the expansion. If people are only now calling it out on being OP, why wasn't it noticed for the first half of the expansion? It's strong raid utility but it actually requires a modicum of input, it isn't just pressing rallying cry when the rampage is coming, surely that should be encouraged?
    I am not saying that Resto is being outhealed by Enhance overall (and that is not what is shown in either log), what I am saying is that Enhance Healing Rain does more healing than Resto Healing Rain with both the HS glyph and 5 x MW. In general, I think it's always a problem when a core healing ability heals for more as a DPS spec than as a healing spec; it doesn't make sense. It would be like Lightning Bolt doing more damage for Resto than Ele for example - it should not happen. Adding to that concern is the fact that Healing Rain has effectively been buffed by up to 240%, because Resto stacked healing is not performing as well as it should be. However, this is going to buff Enhance offhealing more than it buffs Resto healing to the point that it has the potentially to be completely ridiculous on some fights.

    If the revamped Conductivity will allow Enhance to keep Healing Rain up 100% of the time after dropping it once through just rotational abilities, it is going to get even sillier. You would potentially be able to drop a single MWx5 - HR and just keep extending it through a normal DPS rotation. There is no buff on Ra-Den that makes Healing Rain heal for more as either spec; it just heals for more because its one of the only times in ToT that the raid is stacked and taking heavy damage for a sustained period of time.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I am not saying that Resto is being outhealed by Enhance overall (and that is not what is shown in either log), what I am saying is that Enhance Healing Rain does more healing than Resto Healing Rain with both the HS glyph and 5 x MW. <--- On every fight, or just this one fight, by max-geared folks? So far, the only data I'm seeing is for this one fight. In general, I think it's always a problem when a core healing ability heals for more as a DPS spec than as a healing spec; it doesn't make sense. <--- Why is it a "problem?" Who does it create a problem for? Who is being sat, just because of enhancement healing rain? You say 'always,' but so far, all I'm seeing is this one fight. It would be like Lightning Bolt doing more damage for Resto than Ele for example - it should not happen. Adding to that concern is the fact that Healing Rain has effectively been buffed by up to 240%, because Resto stacked healing is not performing as well as it should be. However, this is going to buff Enhance offhealing more than it buffs Resto healing to the point that it has the potentially to be completely ridiculous on some fights. <--- Which, again, I have to ask if that's Enhancement being OP, or Resto being weak? Why point the finger at enhancement, instead of pointing at resto?

    If the revamped Conductivity will allow Enhance to keep Healing Rain up 100% of the time after dropping it once through just rotational abilities, it is going to get even sillier. You would potentially be able to drop a single MWx5 - HR and just keep extending it through a normal DPS rotation. There is no buff on Ra-Den that makes Healing Rain heal for more as either spec; it just heals for more because its one of the only times in ToT that the raid is stacked and taking heavy damage for a sustained period of time.
    Yes, the conductivity talent will allow more dps while keeping one HR down. But, to extend it indefinitely would require a patchwerk-style fight. Any movement would see us re-dropping HR. And, any spreading would render HR sort of "meh." So far, I'm seeing this whole subject as somewhat sensational.

    Let's assume that the healing numbers we're seeing, on these two parses, would apply to any prolonged and heavily-stacked fight. Let's also assume that we'd see the same numbers from any gear level of any "normal" progression guild. (please don't ask me to qualify that beyond the concept of establishing a mean.) If we assume these, then I'll completely agree that enhancement's HR is unbalanced, in relation to Resto's HR. But, I'm not even remotely convinced that this presents a problem.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I am not saying that Resto is being outhealed by Enhance overall (and that is not what is shown in either log), what I am saying is that Enhance Healing Rain does more healing than Resto Healing Rain with both the HS glyph and 5 x MW. In general, I think it's always a problem when a core healing ability heals for more as a DPS spec than as a healing spec; it doesn't make sense. It would be like Lightning Bolt doing more damage for Resto than Ele for example - it should not happen. Adding to that concern is the fact that Healing Rain has effectively been buffed by up to 240%, because Resto stacked healing is not performing as well as it should be. However, this is going to buff Enhance offhealing more than it buffs Resto healing to the point that it has the potentially to be completely ridiculous on some fights.

    If the revamped Conductivity will allow Enhance to keep Healing Rain up 100% of the time after dropping it once through just rotational abilities, it is going to get even sillier. You would potentially be able to drop a single MWx5 - HR and just keep extending it through a normal DPS rotation. There is no buff on Ra-Den that makes Healing Rain heal for more as either spec; it just heals for more because its one of the only times in ToT that the raid is stacked and taking heavy damage for a sustained period of time.
    Conductivity will not be viable, even if it grants 100% uptime, on anything but the most niche of fights. There is constant movement in siege from what I've seen on the PTR on all but Juggernaut, of which then there is still movement sporadically. That would mean even if you can keep it up, you're going to spend a lot of time out of it. Guidance burst healing is just way too useful, and the new HST talent will also likely be preferred, for me at least, as it way less prohibitive and prone to being made completely useless by mechanics.

    You also need to bear in mind that yes, Enhancement HR does heal for a lot, but you aren't factoring in the spikes in HR power through deep healing, and the procs of ELW that are happening that make it do more healing in the long run than the HR. It's just not 100% tied to the healing rain spell. Enhancement brings this off healing, and it is strong in a stacked situation, this isn't something I'm doubting. However, to state that a stationary patch on the ground that costs DPS to use, that in the upcoming tier (which in this situation is most important) is going to be difficult to utilize is what makes Enhancement OP, I think that's hyperbole. It is the one and only spell that outheals the amount Resto does, because of a very specific interaction with a glyph. Resto has a huge amount of other sources of healing, next patch I can flat out guarantee healing tide will be doing significantly more, but that's fine, because Enhancement doesn't have the monopoly on healing CDs, just like resto doesn't have the monopoly on Healing Rain output.

    Do I expect it to be retuned? Yes. In particular, this issue has only been noticed by people because given enhancement is stacking haste, and it's interaction with flurry, healing rain is being dropped with unbelievably high haste conditions. That's why it shows as so much HPS. Do I think it's as much of an issue that enhancement is now able to do something reactive to help healing as people are making out? No. This is something that should be encouraged and given to other classes. Just like tanks doing strong DPS now, some DPS should be able to have an active input in healing. Less pigeon holing and more versatility will improve gameplay and improve raid design options, if you'd rather spend the next 5 years like the last 5 with everyone being shoehorned into the role they choose with no kind of budging, it's a shame.

    I also feel given how small the percentage of the community is that has actually seen and played Ra-Den and seen how much other classes can break mechanics in the fight, pitchforking enhancement is unnecessary. Changing this because it makes a fight easier is like removing all immunities working on static shock, because that's just bypassing a core Lei Shen mechanic. Because it shown up as a big impact on one fight, DOES NOT mean that it affects every fight, because it simply doesn't.
    Last edited by wordup; 2013-07-16 at 05:05 PM.
    Enhancement Shaman | Feral Druid | Windwalker Monk

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I am not saying that Resto is being outhealed by Enhance overall (and that is not what is shown in either log), what I am saying is that Enhance Healing Rain does more healing than Resto Healing Rain with both the HS glyph and 5 x MW. In general, I think it's always a problem when a core healing ability heals for more as a DPS spec than as a healing spec; it doesn't make sense. It would be like Lightning Bolt doing more damage for Resto than Ele for example - it should not happen. Adding to that concern is the fact that Healing Rain has effectively been buffed by up to 240%, because Resto stacked healing is not performing as well as it should be. However, this is going to buff Enhance offhealing more than it buffs Resto healing to the point that it has the potentially to be completely ridiculous on some fights.

    If the revamped Conductivity will allow Enhance to keep Healing Rain up 100% of the time after dropping it once through just rotational abilities, it is going to get even sillier. You would potentially be able to drop a single MWx5 - HR and just keep extending it through a normal DPS rotation. There is no buff on Ra-Den that makes Healing Rain heal for more as either spec; it just heals for more because its one of the only times in ToT that the raid is stacked and taking heavy damage for a sustained period of time.
    How do you think DPS feels when tanks are like half the bosses WOL top 100 parses? It's not like there's a rampant epidemic of Enhancement Shamans out healing healers. Even in this case, he's still not out healing you. Its less healing to take the conductivity talent. We can pretty much keep a healing rain down 100% of the time anyways, plus AG accounted for 27% of his healing. Only extremely lazy shamans are going to take that talent.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by ElintSlave View Post
    How do you think DPS feels when tanks are like half the bosses WOL top 100 parses? It's not like there's a rampant epidemic of Enhancement Shamans out healing healers. Even in this case, he's still not out healing you. Its less healing to take the conductivity talent. We can pretty much keep a healing rain down 100% of the time anyways, plus AG accounted for 27% of his healing. Only extremely lazy shamans are going to take that talent.
    Just to add to this as well, to get that 100% uptime, I don't know what he's done but his DPS is really, really, REALLY low. His healing rain may well be outhealing yours, but given in my 10m kills I am doing around 40k less HPS but a full 90k more DPS, means that surely you should be factoring that in?
    Enhancement Shaman | Feral Druid | Windwalker Monk

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    Snip
    I think you and some others misunderstand me. I like the way Enhancement plays and I don't want to see the synergy between it's DPS and healing destroyed. What I'm trying to say is that just because it only works in one situation (which right now might be one encounter, but could come up again later) doesn't mean it isn't OP.

    For example, when Vengeance was still stupid, there was that level 85 Paladin who solo'ed Elegon. Well you couldn't do that with every boss, Elegon just happened to work for it, and if you were fighting stuff your own level, the Vengeance didn't stack the same way, but it was still OP, so they fixed it. All tanks don't suck now, they just can't do stupid crap like that anymore.

    This is what I'm saying, fix it for that situation specifically, don't destroy their healing completely. If it's only that one encounter, due to the nature of a buff they're receiving or whatever, it may be as simple as making it so DPS classes don't receive the buff for healing abilities and visa versa. However, that doesn't happen for Ra-Den, so I believe the only fix is internally with the Enhancement spec somewhere.

    I agree with Tibbee that it makes no sense to have their HR doing more healing than Resto's as well. That part of it isn't just on one fight, it's the nature of the Healing Storm glyph, which adds such a large bonus to HR that it just becomes stronger than a Resto Shaman's HR. Assuming all things are equal (same number of people in the HR, same rough gear levels, same external buffs, etc) the Enh MW5 glyphed HR will heal for more than Resto's. That's not right. It's not game breaking (except in situations like Ra-Den) and it likely doesn't bench anyone, but that doesn't mean it's fine.
    Last edited by Rarch; 2013-07-16 at 05:23 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rarch View Post
    I think you and some others misunderstand me. I like the way Enhancement plays and I don't want to see the synergy between it's DPS and healing destroyed. What I'm trying to say is that just because it only works in one situation (which right now might be one encounter, but could come up again later) doesn't mean it isn't OP.

    For example, when Vengeance was still stupid, there was that level 85 Paladin who solo'ed Elegon. Well you couldn't do that with every boss, Elegon just happened to work for it, and if you were fighting stuff your own level, the Vengeance didn't stack the same way, but it was still OP, so they fixed it. All tanks don't suck now, they just can't do stupid crap like that anymore.

    This is what I'm saying, fix it for that situation specifically, don't destroy their healing completely. If it's only that one encounter, due to the nature of a buff they're receiving or whatever, it may be as simple as making it so DPS classes don't receive the buff for healing abilities and visa versa. However, that doesn't happen for Ra-Den, so I believe the only fix is internally with the Enhancement spec somewhere.

    I agree with Tibbee that it makes no sense to have their HR doing more healing than Resto's as well. That part of it isn't just on one fight, it's the nature of the Healing Storm glyph, which adds such a large bonus to HR that it just becomes stronger than a Resto Shaman's HR. Assuming all things are equal (same number of people in the HR, same rough gear levels, same external buffs, etc) the Enh MW5 glyphed HR will heal for more than Resto's. That's not right. It's not game breaking (except in situations like Ra-Den) and it likely doesn't bench anyone, but that doesn't mean it's fine.
    Utilizing a spell in a particular encounter that makes the encounter significantly easier has been done for a very long time. I already stated before, why should immunities allow you to fully bypass static shock mechanics in Lei Shen? Why should some guilds be able to completely ignore Animus and zerg it? How about we go back in time, why should grounding ignore Lady Vashj stun? Core mechanic after all. If it's one fight and it doesn't fully break it, which healing rain doesn't, why instantly jump on the nerf train? If it becomes a problem in the future, which will be very easy to track, then yes, fix it. As of now though, it is a vacuum of one fight in which it causes Enhancement to perform above and beyond their normal ability.
    Enhancement Shaman | Feral Druid | Windwalker Monk

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  11. #51
    To anyone who thinks our heals are OP: does each tick of an Enh HR heal for more than Resto HR? Or each HS heal for more than a Resto's GHW? Not to mention that most Enh HR ticks are overhealing anyway - if we get to the stage where ppl are low on HP, Resto's mastery kicks in and their HR heals for loads more, plus they have raid-wide CD's like all healers (and some melee DPS) have...whereas all we got is AG and that only heals 3 targets. (and even when we get HTT, it won't be anywhere near as effective as Resto's)

    Point is...our heals are weaker than pure healing classes, we need DPS time to generate them (MW procs), and it costs us DPS whenever we cast one. Just because one spell is more-than-useful on a couple of niche fights (one of which won't be even seen by the majority of ppl until end-of-expac boredom sets in) is no reason to nerf our utility and survivability in all kinds of PvE.

    Im getting to the point where im EXPECTED to be cutting my DPS to heal and I think it should be a situation where ok the healers are out of position or theres a huge damage phase coming up, ill sacrifice 2 MW*5 to help out, not...ok keep HR on melee during the entirety of this phase kthnx.
    Personally I'd keep HR down anyway, better to be safe than sorry. (and we are hybrids after all)

    Also, I've been told that people want ele; not enh for CMs.
    We're rather useful for CM's as well...spot healing the tank (and sometimes others) helps a lot along with our burst and the other utility CD's that all shammies have. (and we don't have to project our capacitors etc.)
    Last edited by Staticus; 2013-07-16 at 05:38 PM.

  12. #52
    My healing rain, as enhancement, pretty much always ticks harder/faster than the healing rain of our resto shamans.

    HOWEVER, they proc earthliving on the raid from healing rain. I don't. They get more healing per cast of healing rain than I do, but my healing rain itself heals for more than theirs does.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...trellen/simple (Enhancement PvE)
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l/alamo/simple (Boomkin/Guardian/Restodruid, all PvE)
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...dvoodoo/simple (PvE Holy Priest)

    No, I'm not the real Alamo, just a guy who liked his work.

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